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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's?
I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it?
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United States43960 Posts
On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it?
No.
The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act.
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Northern Ireland26736 Posts
On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it?
There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair.
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’.
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On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay...
On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to.
Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing?
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United States43960 Posts
You're really not very good at historical comparisons.
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On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront.
It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:
[quote]
Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront.
It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons.
I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case.
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On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case.
I think the comparison is not useful. Instead of insisting on the comparison, why not just describe the situation and how it ought to be approached? I feel like you have put so much into this comparison to 1930 that you must have a lot of substantive points to make about the current situation. Look at how many replies have strictly involved the comparison. Would be much better to just discuss the specific topic rather than clinging to a comparison.
Separately, I think the core of the issue is "To what extent can Palestinians be helped? To what extent could they still avoid mass deportation?"
If Iran was their only supporter, and now their entire proxy network is in shambles, are they not in an extremely precarious situation? Am I forgetting some other nation that is willing to put their neck out for Palestinians? To my knowledge, truly 0 nations are willing to suffer for Palestinians other than Iran.
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On November 12 2024 19:39 KT_Elwood wrote:
Hamas should surrender, Gaza and Westbank will be annexed anyway, and the only thing arab population in Israel is to be preserved would simply be to be assimilated into the israeli society.
I think this is still true. Palestinians need to make a 180 and present themselves as useful to the "Riviera Effort" or will get moved to refugee camps abroad.
Trump will basicly sell off the waterfront property to the highest bidder, including a security fee paying for US troops to oversee the orderly hand over.
All nations apart from Iran may be non enthusiastic.. but my gut feeling is, that most of them are DONE with palestine - they are just not a good business asset.
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Northern Ireland26736 Posts
On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case.
No, I’m saying outside of being a good guy, my country has zero strategic reason to bat for Palestine. And even if they are a good guy, the US’ influence in this domain is all that really matters in a power sense.
And by ‘my country’ I mean the UK. I feel a certain kinship to the Irish but I’m not Irish. And that lot have probably put the boat out more than almost any non-Arab nation re this conflict.
Versus a 1939 and on where the UK had very good, selfish reasons to oppose Nazi Germany. And were proportionally more powerful.
One of the rationales of appeasement was ‘the Nazis are fucking powerful and pretty much next door to us let’s not annoy them’. Israel isn’t threatening us over in Europe
Ultimately even if Europe came out, batting hardcore for Palestine, in the event that did happen, does it outweigh the US support?
I’m not sure it does. Maybe. But like, it’s very much a maybe.
When those conditions were somewhat different, Europe went to bat for Ukraine for example, as they don’t want an expansionist Russia on their doorstep.
Who else is batting for the Palestinians? Is China wielding its might? Its neighbours or the general Arab world? The global South moving the needle?
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I agree. I think the whole idea of surrendering is way more demonized than it ought to be. It is indeed a legitimate idea and many nations have surrendered in the past.
People are quick to say "but all hope isn't quite lost yet", but I think people ought to be willing to indicate at what point they think Hamas ought to just surrender. When 50% of the current Gaza population is killed? 70%? When does it become valuable to salvage what little life remains? I am sure everyone who doesn't think Hamas should surrender right now doesn't want Palestinians to fight until extinction. So then when do they surrender?
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On February 07 2025 09:32 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better.
It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better.
It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case. I think the comparison is not useful. + Show Spoiler +Instead of insisting on the comparison, why not just describe the situation and how it ought to be approached? I feel like you have put so much into this comparison to 1930 that you must have a lot of substantive points to make about the current situation. Look at how many replies have strictly involved the comparison. Would be much better to just discuss the specific topic rather than clinging to a comparison.
Separately, I think the core of the issue is "To what extent can Palestinians be helped? To what extent could they still avoid mass deportation?"
If Iran was their only supporter, and now their entire proxy network is in shambles, are they not in an extremely precarious situation? Am I forgetting some other nation that is willing to put their neck out for Palestinians? To my knowledge, truly 0 nations are willing to suffer for Palestinians other than Iran.
My bad, it was supposed to read as:I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or conceding entirely to fascism in your case.
Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing/conceding to?
And I guess I'd add "has it occured to any of you how a pro-putin/pro Netanyahu unhinged fascist US may influence the future of Europe and the Middle East?"
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It is interesting to look at GH's hate of "appeasement" and willingness to destroy "fascists" and their collaborators at any cost and see that he is very close to advocating for Israel's strategy. And considering Hamas is is basically worse than fascists at everything people hate fascists for all you would need is Netanyahu to brand himself a socialist and GH would be congratulating him as a bold leader doing what needs to be done.
All these stupid labels need to go away.
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On February 07 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:
It is interesting to look at GH's hate of "appeasement" and willingness to destroy "fascists" and their collaborators at any cost and see that he is very close to advocating for Israel's strategy. And considering Hamas is is basically worse than fascists at everything people hate fascists for all you would need is Netanyahu to brand himself a socialist and GH would be congratulating him as a bold leader doing what needs to be done.
That's unfair, nothing GH has said or done has suggested he would be willing to have X innocents die for every fascist, whatever number X is for this conflict.
Voting for a Democrat was too much collateral damage for him :D
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On February 07 2025 10:43 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 10:13 Billyboy wrote:
It is interesting to look at GH's hate of "appeasement" and willingness to destroy "fascists" and their collaborators at any cost and see that he is very close to advocating for Israel's strategy. And considering Hamas is is basically worse than fascists at everything people hate fascists for all you would need is Netanyahu to brand himself a socialist and GH would be congratulating him as a bold leader doing what needs to be done. That's unfair, nothing GH has said or done has suggested he would be willing to have X innocents die for every fascist, whatever number X is for this conflict. Voting for a Democrat was too much collateral damage for him :D
GH knows that many innocents will die in a bloody revolution. But in this case if Hamas was "fascists" and Israel had marketed itself as communist's, then those innocents would all the sudden become collaborators who were hiding and protecting "fascists", so not innocent at all.
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Northern Ireland26736 Posts
On February 07 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 09:32 Mohdoo wrote:On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:[quote] Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:[quote] Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case. I think the comparison is not useful. + Show Spoiler +Instead of insisting on the comparison, why not just describe the situation and how it ought to be approached? I feel like you have put so much into this comparison to 1930 that you must have a lot of substantive points to make about the current situation. Look at how many replies have strictly involved the comparison. Would be much better to just discuss the specific topic rather than clinging to a comparison.
Separately, I think the core of the issue is "To what extent can Palestinians be helped? To what extent could they still avoid mass deportation?"
If Iran was their only supporter, and now their entire proxy network is in shambles, are they not in an extremely precarious situation? Am I forgetting some other nation that is willing to put their neck out for Palestinians? To my knowledge, truly 0 nations are willing to suffer for Palestinians other than Iran. My bad, it was supposed to read as: Show nested quote +I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or conceding entirely to fascism in your case.
Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing/conceding to? And I guess I'd add "has it occured to any of you how a pro-putin/pro Netanyahu unhinged fascist US may influence the future of Europe and the Middle East?"
Yes. It’s occurred! To many!
This is precisely why people advocated against handing the reins to Donald Trump in the first fucking place!
Even a slightly less shit US can have pretty sizeable impacts
Fucking hell GH, this isn’t a convincing line of argumentation
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On February 07 2025 10:02 Mohdoo wrote:
I agree. I think the whole idea of surrendering is way more demonized than it ought to be. It is indeed a legitimate idea and many nations have surrendered in the past.
People are quick to say "but all hope isn't quite lost yet", but I think people ought to be willing to indicate at what point they think Hamas ought to just surrender. When 50% of the current Gaza population is killed? 70%? When does it become valuable to salvage what little life remains? I am sure everyone who doesn't think Hamas should surrender right now doesn't want Palestinians to fight until extinction. So then when do they surrender?
The key issue with surrendering to your friends is that your friends hate Palestinians because they exist, not because they fight. Once Palestinians have surrendered, they'll still exist.
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On February 07 2025 11:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 09:32 Mohdoo wrote:On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide.
Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for.
+ Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide.
Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for.
+ Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case. I think the comparison is not useful. + Show Spoiler +Instead of insisting on the comparison, why not just describe the situation and how it ought to be approached? I feel like you have put so much into this comparison to 1930 that you must have a lot of substantive points to make about the current situation. Look at how many replies have strictly involved the comparison. Would be much better to just discuss the specific topic rather than clinging to a comparison.
Separately, I think the core of the issue is "To what extent can Palestinians be helped? To what extent could they still avoid mass deportation?"
If Iran was their only supporter, and now their entire proxy network is in shambles, are they not in an extremely precarious situation? Am I forgetting some other nation that is willing to put their neck out for Palestinians? To my knowledge, truly 0 nations are willing to suffer for Palestinians other than Iran. My bad, it was supposed to read as: I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or conceding entirely to fascism in your case.
Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing/conceding to? And I guess I'd add "has it occured to any of you how a pro-putin/pro Netanyahu unhinged fascist US may influence the future of Europe and the Middle East?" Yes. It’s occurred! To many! This is precisely why people advocated against handing the reins to Donald Trump in the first fucking place! Even a slightly less shit US can have pretty sizeable impacts Fucking hell GH, this isn’t a convincing line of argumentation
Doesn't seem like it has.
That ship has sailed, Democrats handed them to him despite my protestations.
I don't know what you think I'm trying to convince who of, but afaict you and Kwark's reaction is demonstrative of my point.
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On February 07 2025 15:40 GreenHorizons wrote:I don't know what you think I'm trying to convince who of, but afaict you and Kwark's reaction is demonstrative of my point.
Look, just tell us all how many Hasan streams we need to watch before we stop being complicit in genocide.
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On February 07 2025 15:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 11:11 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 09:32 Mohdoo wrote:On February 07 2025 08:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 08:37 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 08:25 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 05:36 KwarK wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? No. The western powers in the 1930s had the power to act but chose not to use it. That's different from not having the power to act. So not so much appeasement as conceding entirely, okay... On February 07 2025 06:00 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 05:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 03:48 WombaT wrote:[quote] + Show Spoiler +This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada. Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse. + Show Spoiler +
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
Is this not just the argument for appeasement in the 1930's? I don't say that to scold people, but because I was under the impression the lesson was that they shouldn't have done it? There’s quite a gap in what I think people should do, and what they do to be fair. + Show Spoiler +
As I said in another thread I think the moral component of anti-Nazi resistance is somewhat overstated. Not non-existent sure, but factors such as a Nazi Empire next door, and wanting to expand. It’s bad for security, it’s bad for business. I think plenty of the blokes signing up and dying probably did so for anti-Nazi reasons, but I don’t think the state did necessarily.
Palestine isn’t next door, Israel isn’t threatening Europe. Europe was also stronger in relative terms then.
Anyway
1. Europe needs to bat for Palestine wholesale. And it has no real reason to outside of the moral sentiment of its denizens
2. That needs to somehow outweigh the US’ support, and with Trump, even bigger support for Israel.
1 to me is desirable, but not especially realistic. However 2 is the main problem. Even if Europe did go absolutely all-in here, can they outweigh that leverage?
The contrast I think is more pertinent is apartheid South Africa. Things like boycotts and ostracisation in sport all built up over time, because you didn’t have a superpower going ‘hey I’ve got South Africa’s back’. This sounds like you have ideas on how not to have a strategy of appeasement if the US allows you to. Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing? You're really not very good at historical comparisons. I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or cenceding entirely to fascism in your case. I think the comparison is not useful. + Show Spoiler +Instead of insisting on the comparison, why not just describe the situation and how it ought to be approached? I feel like you have put so much into this comparison to 1930 that you must have a lot of substantive points to make about the current situation. Look at how many replies have strictly involved the comparison. Would be much better to just discuss the specific topic rather than clinging to a comparison.
Separately, I think the core of the issue is "To what extent can Palestinians be helped? To what extent could they still avoid mass deportation?"
If Iran was their only supporter, and now their entire proxy network is in shambles, are they not in an extremely precarious situation? Am I forgetting some other nation that is willing to put their neck out for Palestinians? To my knowledge, truly 0 nations are willing to suffer for Palestinians other than Iran. My bad, it was supposed to read as: I'm not saying that they're the same situation. I'm saying you guys are using the reasoning/rationale of appeasement, or conceding entirely to fascism in your case.
Did it occur to either of you that Trump's US is the fascist entity you guys are appeasing/conceding to? And I guess I'd add "has it occured to any of you how a pro-putin/pro Netanyahu unhinged fascist US may influence the future of Europe and the Middle East?" Yes. It’s occurred! To many! This is precisely why people advocated against handing the reins to Donald Trump in the first fucking place! Even a slightly less shit US can have pretty sizeable impacts Fucking hell GH, this isn’t a convincing line of argumentation Doesn't seem like it has. That ship has sailed, Democrats handed them to him despite my protestations. I don't know what you think I'm trying to convince who of, but afaict you and Kwark's reaction is demonstrative of my point.
We will give our best to LARP harder against the genocide.
Genocide BAD!
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I don't think women would have voting rights today if suffragettes had left it at "good enough". They were radical and over 1300 women in the UK went to prison.
Voting for Democrats is not radical enough to create positive and lasting change for Palestinians and other Arabs. It has never worked once so far. It didn't work under Obama, it didn't work under Biden. It's time to wake up.
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EPT
