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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On February 09 2025 04:33 KT_Elwood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2025 21:26 Magic Powers wrote:On February 08 2025 20:38 KT_Elwood wrote:
Good, fuck the ICC, it costs a lot of money and never really trials war crimials anyway.
Nice idea, good try.. but if the only guys you "get" are 43rd tier yugoslav generals, we can get rid of the institution.
UN next please, and then ICCP. Sigh... I'm hoping when you posted this you weren't in your usual state of mind. Maybe someone pissed you off or whatever, I hope your day improves. Trump or not, the US is not respecting ICC decisions against, not even trialing against their citizens. Neither is China or Russia and many other countries. This makes ICC a stupid clownshow and it can be trashed. Next time you need to trial war criminals from .. Canada.. you can re-Open it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_parties_to_the_Rome_Statute#/media/File:ICC_member_states.svgTrump is right when he says that international law is basicly just fluff for Euro-cucks. Most of Europe was "Willing" to attack Iraq.. and afghanistan breaking international law. See any Euro-Politician on the bench? No? Putin can invade Ukraine.. and while there is a lot of help.. Asia doesn't give a fuck.. there aren't Chinese or NATO troops on the ground upholding international law. UN the same. Whole lotta nothingburgers with Russia and PRC always throwing in the veto. Keep the food programme, and then rent out the nice building for cheap.
If you had only called for the abolition of the ICC and not also for that of the UN I probably wouldn't have said anything. That's not worth having an argument over. Your view that the UN should be done away with is over-the-top. Virtually nobody supports that. 193 countries have a role in the UN.
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On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe.
Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations).
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On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe.
Yes, killing tens of thousands of innocent people is how Israel stays safe. I wonder why this breeds extremism.
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On February 09 2025 04:45 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Yes, killing tens of thousands of innocent people is how Israel stays safe. I wonder why this breeds extremism.
As always, the problem is the middle of the road solutions.
Be nice and peaceful while having a big club, less issues.
Integrate it federation style, less issues.
Take it over empire style, less issues.
Then you get their current line. Where you retaliate in waves and slowly occupy more area, increasing pressure until it explodes again. Repeat.
Then the morally worse ones with a few examples that would cause less issues for Israel but be worse overall.
Put them in work camps China/Soviet/Nazi style. You have an easily defensible area.
Take over the land, deport everybody and close the border. Neighbours annoyed at you but peaceful within borders if you have the population to fill the space up. Probably 10x current casualties.
Simply kill most/all. They were on the path to this until the recent peace talks were forced by internal and external pressure. Mostly due to starvation, exposure, sanitation (disease) and water access which are the classical ways to kill people.
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On February 09 2025 04:44 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations).
If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts?
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Northern Ireland27460 Posts
On February 09 2025 09:04 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:44 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations). If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts?
What does Communism have to do with it? Or this hypothetical more broadly.
Israel is surrounded by pretty hostile powers, sure. They’re not fighting back at those, they’re shooting fish in a barrel in Gaza
They’re expanding settlements, they’ve rabid extremists in government.
Look folks have a right to self-defence, they don’t have carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck.
I can use some force to stop a burglary yeah, if I also after thwarting that, went and just hunted down and killed the family of the would be burglar, folks would consider that excessive.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On February 09 2025 12:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 09:04 Billyboy wrote:On February 09 2025 04:44 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations). If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts? What does Communism have to do with it? Or this hypothetical more broadly. Israel is surrounded by pretty hostile powers, sure. They’re not fighting back at those, they’re shooting fish in a barrel in Gaza They’re expanding settlements, they’ve rabid extremists in government. Look folks have a right to self-defence, they don’t have carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck. I can use some force to stop a burglary yeah, if I also after thwarting that, went and just hunted down and killed the family of the would be burglar, folks would consider that excessive.
To get that right you'd have to hunt down the family of the of the would-be burglar, and then tell the police that this family were also burglars with a secret network of burglars going in and out of their house all day and they were trying to kill you first even though that isn't true.
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On February 09 2025 12:00 WombaT wrote:
What does Communism have to do with it? Or this hypothetical more broadly.
Israel is surrounded by pretty hostile powers, sure. They’re not fighting back at those, they’re shooting fish in a barrel in Gaza
They’re expanding settlements, they’ve rabid extremists in government.
Look folks have a right to self-defence, they don’t have carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck.
I can use some force to stop a burglary yeah, if I also after thwarting that, went and just hunted down and killed the family of the would be burglar, folks would consider that excessive.
I think what they are trying to say is that if ideologies were so fervent, fascists vs communists regimes, then a pure zero sum game would be in place and anything would be justified. But calling Hamas like the nazis, is pretty funny since Hamas is about the most anti-west org you can get, and has 1/1000th the power, and well yea you can go on with the contradictions.
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On February 09 2025 09:04 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 04:44 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations). If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts?
I think it should defend itself.
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Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7.
Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base.
thecradle.co
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On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Show nested quote +Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co
What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense.
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
User was warned for this post
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On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense. + Show Spoiler +
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
Killing the people was the goal. How confident Israel was at any given moment about whether they were killing their own soldiers or their own civilians is a bit more debatable.
ABC News adds that both soldiers and Israeli civilians were targeted. In two incidents Israeli civilians survived Israeli forces firing on them and killing other hostages. A survivor of Kibbutz Nir Oz described being fired upon by the Israeli military as Hamas members tried to take her and other hostages across the border: "[An] IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the wagon." Ms Dekel-Chen said one woman, her friend Efrat Katz, was shot and killed. Six months later an Israeli Air Force investigation acknowledged it was likely an attack helicopter had killed Katz.[11]
ABC News noted the use of the Directive in Kibbutz Be'eri at the Pessi residence, killing 13 civilians.
en.wikipedia.org
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On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:
What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense.
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
It's been reported for a long time, Haaretz had an article on it in july 2024. Assuming Gallant said it in the interview, this would only be confirmation of him giving the order, not of the order being given.
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Northern Ireland27460 Posts
On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense. Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
The article isn’t especially clear, IMO in what it’s alleging. Well, beyond the central charge that the so-called Hannibal Doctrine was in some way employed.
Or really the ambiguity/lack of clarification comes from, were civilian deaths attributable to collateral damage, or mistaken identity in pursuit of that policy, or were they deliberately targeted in some expanded scope implementation of it?
Perhaps it’s an awful source and what the implication is is obvious to the intended audience. It’s just not one I’m familiar with.
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On February 10 2025 00:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense. + Show Spoiler +
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
Killing the people was the goal. How confident Israel was at any given moment about whether they were killing their own soldiers or their own civilians is a bit more debatable. Show nested quote +ABC News adds that both soldiers and Israeli civilians were targeted. In two incidents Israeli civilians survived Israeli forces firing on them and killing other hostages. A survivor of Kibbutz Nir Oz described being fired upon by the Israeli military as Hamas members tried to take her and other hostages across the border: "[An] IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the wagon." Ms Dekel-Chen said one woman, her friend Efrat Katz, was shot and killed. Six months later an Israeli Air Force investigation acknowledged it was likely an attack helicopter had killed Katz.[11]
ABC News noted the use of the Directive in Kibbutz Be'eri at the Pessi residence, killing 13 civilians. en.wikipedia.org
Do you have any evidence for such vile accusations? Have you read the damn Wiki article? The doctrine states that collateral damage, including fatalities, is acceptable when trying to prevent a kidnapping, not that the IDF should try to kill the hostages. Learn to fucking read.
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On February 09 2025 12:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 09:04 Billyboy wrote:On February 09 2025 04:44 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:39 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:35 Nebuchad wrote:On February 09 2025 04:33 RenSC2 wrote:On February 09 2025 04:31 Nebuchad wrote:
The only nation in the world where people are both safe and forced to kill hundreds of thousands of people in self-defense Yes. They can only achieve safety by killing their enemies because their enemies will never stop coming to kill them. Their willingness to strike back is what keeps them safe. That doesn't make any sense obviously, you can't be both safe and surrounded by enemies who will never stop coming to kill you, that's not how words work. But you probably don't care, do you. Let's say you have an enemy or a lot of them that want to kill you. You have the power to put them in jail or the dirt and do so. Are you now safe? Those people still want to kill you, but no longer can, so yes, you are safe. Israel needs to cripple those who would kill them and take away any power from them to strike Israel. That's how Israel remains safe. Either those things that you describe haven't happened yet, and therefore Israel is not safe, or those things that you describe have happened, and therefore Israel is safe, but its current actions are not in self-defense. In this case neither of the statements are true, I'm just pointing out that they couldn't both be true. The enemy cannot be simultaneously strong and weak (unless you add a few other stipulations). If Israel was communist and the surrounding countries were all fascists determined to kill every citizen, power dynamics are the same. How do you suggest Israel reacts? What does Communism have to do with it? Or this hypothetical more broadly. Israel is surrounded by pretty hostile powers, sure. They’re not fighting back at those, they’re shooting fish in a barrel in Gaza They’re expanding settlements, they’ve rabid extremists in government. Look folks have a right to self-defence, they don’t have carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck. I can use some force to stop a burglary yeah, if I also after thwarting that, went and just hunted down and killed the family of the would be burglar, folks would consider that excessive.
Not sure if you just had another night at the pub or just wanted to show how bad assumptions lead to terrible conclusions, but obviously nothing. The point was to switch up the "good" and "bad" guys to see what would be an acceptable response. Who knows maybe even get a good faith answer for a change, but no luck.
On February 09 2025 12:32 Husyelt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2025 12:00 WombaT wrote:
What does Communism have to do with it? Or this hypothetical more broadly.
Israel is surrounded by pretty hostile powers, sure. They’re not fighting back at those, they’re shooting fish in a barrel in Gaza
They’re expanding settlements, they’ve rabid extremists in government.
Look folks have a right to self-defence, they don’t have carte Blanche to do whatever the fuck.
I can use some force to stop a burglary yeah, if I also after thwarting that, went and just hunted down and killed the family of the would be burglar, folks would consider that excessive.
I think what they are trying to say is that if ideologies were so fervent, fascists vs communists regimes, then a pure zero sum game would be in place and anything would be justified. But calling Hamas like the nazis, is pretty funny since Hamas is about the most anti-west org you can get, and has 1/1000th the power, and well yea you can go on with the contradictions.
It is fairly common knowledge that while Nazis are fascists not all fascists are Nazis. Next wtf "most anti west" are Nazi's pro west? And I specifically said with the power balance being the same, so you got everything wrong.
That being said you did open a can of worms. What is it about Hamas you like more than Fascists? Start with treatment of women, and work through all the things you hate about fascists and then go look up Hamas's position on those. Leaving your social media bubble is going to be required though, not sure if you are brave enough to venture into the world of journalism with rules.
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On February 10 2025 01:49 Billyboy wrote:
Not sure if you just had another night at the pub or just wanted to show how bad assumptions lead to terrible conclusions, but obviously nothing. The point was to switch up the "good" and "bad" guys to see what would be an acceptable response. Who knows maybe even get a good faith answer for a change, but no luck.
I don't see how anyone answered you in bad faith.
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On February 10 2025 01:49 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2025 00:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense. + Show Spoiler +
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
Killing the people was the goal. How confident Israel was at any given moment about whether they were killing their own soldiers or their own civilians is a bit more debatable. ABC News adds that both soldiers and Israeli civilians were targeted. In two incidents Israeli civilians survived Israeli forces firing on them and killing other hostages. A survivor of Kibbutz Nir Oz described being fired upon by the Israeli military as Hamas members tried to take her and other hostages across the border: "[An] IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the wagon." Ms Dekel-Chen said one woman, her friend Efrat Katz, was shot and killed. Six months later an Israeli Air Force investigation acknowledged it was likely an attack helicopter had killed Katz.[11]
ABC News noted the use of the Directive in Kibbutz Be'eri at the Pessi residence, killing 13 civilians. en.wikipedia.org Do you have any evidence for such vile accusations? Have you read the damn Wiki article? The doctrine states that collateral damage, including fatalities, is acceptable when trying to prevent a kidnapping, not that the IDF should try to kill the hostages. Learn to fucking read.
It was proven that the IDF has shot their own soldiers who were waving white flags. They've also shot or bombed clearly identifiable journalists from various different countries of origin. It's not a secret that the IDF is not exactly subtle in its methods and sometimes outright criminal.
You can argue that not 100% of the IDF is like that, but to deny that there's a problem is a sign that reality is not what you're interested in.
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There are different ways to commit atrocities. You can command people to do them, but that kind of explicity is problematic as it can leave straightforward evidence, especially when commands come from high enough. To avoid this, you can instead ignore the evil actions. When enough people ignore the actions, they quickly become the practices of willing participants. The next step is to expect these practices and reward those who take the initiative. No need to order war crimes and crimes against humanity when you have created a culture where people commit them willingly. Now you have plausible deniability as a defence when someone asks how the atrocities happened. It was just some low ranking individuals.
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On February 10 2025 02:00 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2025 01:49 maybenexttime wrote:On February 10 2025 00:07 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 09 2025 23:45 maybenexttime wrote:On February 09 2025 23:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Still no exact count, but we have further confirmation that Israel intentionally killed some number of its own citizens on Oct 7. Former Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant has acknowledged ordering the army to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers during the Hamas attack on 7 October 2023.
During an interview with Israel’s Channel 12 on 7 February, Gallant admitted to ordering the controversial protocol that involves killing captives along with their captors.
When asked whether an order was given to implement the Hannibal Directive, Gallant responded:
“I think that, tactically, in some places, it was given, and in other places, it was not given, and that is a problem.”
Israeli forces killed large numbers of their own civilians and soldiers during the attack. The army dispatched attack helicopters, drones, and tanks on its own territory to respond to the attack, killing not only Hamas fighters but also Israeli civilians and soldiers that the Palestinian fighters attempted to take as captives back to Gaza.
Israeli helicopters also killed Israeli civilians at the Nova festival, which took place near the Re’im military base. thecradle.co What an unhinged way to frame it. "(...) to use the Hannibal Directive to kill Israeli civilians and soldiers (...)" implies that the goal was to kill those people. The Hannibal Directive pertains to IDF soldiers. The article claims that that Israel used the doctrine when dealing with the kidnappings of civilians which is nonsense. + Show Spoiler +
Your source is an anti-Semitic cesspit. It blames the massacre at the rave party on Israel even though Hamas broadcasted the whole thing and bragged about it. Fuck you.
Killing the people was the goal. How confident Israel was at any given moment about whether they were killing their own soldiers or their own civilians is a bit more debatable. ABC News adds that both soldiers and Israeli civilians were targeted. In two incidents Israeli civilians survived Israeli forces firing on them and killing other hostages. A survivor of Kibbutz Nir Oz described being fired upon by the Israeli military as Hamas members tried to take her and other hostages across the border: "[An] IDF helicopter appeared above us. At some point the helicopter shot at the terrorists, the driver and the others. There was screaming in the wagon." Ms Dekel-Chen said one woman, her friend Efrat Katz, was shot and killed. Six months later an Israeli Air Force investigation acknowledged it was likely an attack helicopter had killed Katz.[11]
ABC News noted the use of the Directive in Kibbutz Be'eri at the Pessi residence, killing 13 civilians. en.wikipedia.org Do you have any evidence for such vile accusations? Have you read the damn Wiki article? The doctrine states that collateral damage, including fatalities, is acceptable when trying to prevent a kidnapping, not that the IDF should try to kill the hostages. Learn to fucking read. It was proven that the IDF has shot their own soldiers who were waving white flags. They've also shot or bombed clearly identifiable journalists from various different countries of origin. It's not a secret that the IDF is not exactly subtle in its methods and sometimes outright criminal. You can argue that not 100% of the IDF is like that, but to deny that there's a problem is a sign that reality is not what you're interested in.
So no evidence?
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EPT
