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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment.
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On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians"
"All of them die"
vs
"A whole bunch die but some of them are forced into terrible lives as refugees in random countries"
I of course think option 2 is way better. No one is going to save them. Every Palestinian life is in the hands of Trump and Netanyahu. Is it that you don't think Netanyahu and Trump would go through with it? You think they'd ease up and feel bad and do something nicer?
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That's only because we can already see what future awaits them at the hand of Israel and US.
But I agree that we can check the 'lesser evil' box on that one.
It's the 'art of the possible' part that looks like a hard fail.
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On February 06 2025 03:49 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" "All of them die" vs "A whole bunch die but some of them are forced into terrible lives as refugees in random countries" I of course think option 2 is way better.
And what happens if/when the Gazans (perhaps inevitably?) refuse to be displaced as an entire group? We've already seen what happens when only a small portion of them goes nuts. What is the "final solution" if even more of them try to do the same?
You have to leave the door wide open for most Gazans to simply stay. If you don't, you risk a monstrous escalation of bloodshed that the world hasn't seen in a very long time.
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On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment.
He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it.
I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image.
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He has also defended ethnic cleansing by Israel as the best option for the region for over a year while defending Israel from criticism at most turns.
Had a good reaction one of the first times he did this, good job past me
On October 08 2023 23:44 Nebuchad wrote:
It's also a take that, while true, validates the power of the supremacists. If the far right makes it sufficiently bad for black people, or trans people, to live in a place, then those minorities should probably leave that place. But the issue in this situation isn't what black people and trans people are doing and whether it's the optimal strategy in the face of the oppression they're facing, the issue is the fucking far right.
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On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image. So when are you going to use any means necessary to stop it?
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On February 06 2025 04:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image. So when are you going to use any means necessary to stop it?
Everyday. "by any means necessary" doesn't mean "by any means, any/all of the time, in any/all of the places, without consideration for what is effective".
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On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image.
I, just like everyone else here, have had many opportunities to be a hero and stand up against evils in the world. I have opted not to at every possible moment. At one point it becomes clear I am not a hero. I wish I were. I wish more people were. When I look at the state of the world, apparently there aren't all that many heroes around.
Nebuchad makes a good point that when people roll over too easily, they immortalize and empower evil people. When we dismiss the validity of hope, we harm enthusiasm and interest of hope, further reducing the chances of it manifesting. This is all true and I of course don't dispute it.
But let me take you back through history a moment and let me know when I get things wrong.
Step 1: The idea to form Israel is brought up. Many impassioned speeches at the UN speak against it. It ends up being formed anyway after a whole bunch of people die
Step 2: Various forms of resistance act against Israel and it boils into full-ass military conflict a few times. Six day war and whatnot. Israel continues to grow and Palestinians continue to suffer
Step 3: Israel continues to munch up more and more land, displacing more and more Palestinians every year.
Step 4: October 7 happens and the world begs Israel to have mercy. No mercy is given. Then they are begged to reconsider Rafah. They charge right on in. This continues on and on
Step 5: Iran's whole proxy thing gets blown to pieces over the course of Lebanon and Syria and Gaza and Palestinians become supremely screwed.
Step 6: Trump wins. The US military is led by Hagseth, who values Palestinian lives less than extra guac on a burrito. The US ambassador to the UN views the West Bank as biblically destined as part of Israel. Netanyahu has enough bombs and planes to fight off the majority of European countries. Trump says Palestinians need to go and they are all gonna go.
Here we are, almost 80 years later, looking up at the stars and reminding ourselves "where there's a will, there's a way". This isn't Air Bud. No one is going to score one last hoop before the buzzer and save all the Palestinians. Despite everything I said about the value in keeping hope alive, it is totally nuts to pretend this is some kinda "it ain't over yet" scenario.
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On February 06 2025 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image. + Show Spoiler +
I, just like everyone else here, have had many opportunities to be a hero and stand up against evils in the world. I have opted not to at every possible moment. At one point it becomes clear I am not a hero. I wish I were. I wish more people were. When I look at the state of the world, apparently there aren't all that many heroes around.
Nebuchad makes a good point that when people roll over too easily, they immortalize and empower evil people. When we dismiss the validity of hope, we harm enthusiasm and interest of hope, further reducing the chances of it manifesting. This is all true and I of course don't dispute it.
But let me take you back through history a moment and let me know when I get things wrong.
Step 1: The idea to form Israel is brought up. Many impassioned speeches at the UN speak against it. It ends up being formed anyway after a whole bunch of people die
Step 2: Various forms of resistance act against Israel and it boils into full-ass military conflict a few times. Six day war and whatnot. Israel continues to grow and Palestinians continue to suffer
Step 3: Israel continues to munch up more and more land, displacing more and more Palestinians every year.
Step 4: October 7 happens and the world begs Israel to have mercy. No mercy is given. Then they are begged to reconsider Rafah. They charge right on in. This continues on and on
Step 5: Iran's whole proxy thing gets blown to pieces over the course of Lebanon and Syria and Gaza and Palestinians become supremely screwed.
Step 6: Trump wins. The US military is led by Hagseth, who values Palestinian lives less than extra guac on a burrito. The US ambassador to the UN views the West Bank as biblically destined as part of Israel. Netanyahu has enough bombs and planes to fight off the majority of European countries. Trump says Palestinians need to go and they are all gonna go.
Here we are, almost 80 years later, looking up at the stars and reminding ourselves "where there's a will, there's a way". This isn't Air Bud. No one is going to score one last hoop before the buzzer and save all the Palestinians. Despite everything I said about the value in keeping hope alive
, it is totally nuts to pretend this is some kinda "it ain't over yet" scenario. Like I said, most people are not as prepared as you to recognize they would have been complicit with the Nazis. I'm reasonably confident I would have been killed with the communists or while standing up for some other group (or just as a Black person), so my behavior/posting today reflects that. Your (and many others over the course of this thread) posting is reflective of someone that would have been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis.
That's sorta the point of my sig. I doubt for most of your life you went around believing "If I was around in the 1930's I would have sided with the Nazis" but here you are vociferously making that point.
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I don't really care what people do or don't do individually, but I do wish we keep a clear distinction between "the fascists in Israel are forcing us to accept a bad option" and "my friends in Israel are forcing us to accept a bad option". Out of respect for my sanity, at the very least.
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On February 06 2025 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image. + Show Spoiler +
I, just like everyone else here, have had many opportunities to be a hero and stand up against evils in the world. I have opted not to at every possible moment. At one point it becomes clear I am not a hero. I wish I were. I wish more people were. When I look at the state of the world, apparently there aren't all that many heroes around.
Nebuchad makes a good point that when people roll over too easily, they immortalize and empower evil people. When we dismiss the validity of hope, we harm enthusiasm and interest of hope, further reducing the chances of it manifesting. This is all true and I of course don't dispute it.
But let me take you back through history a moment and let me know when I get things wrong.
Step 1: The idea to form Israel is brought up. Many impassioned speeches at the UN speak against it. It ends up being formed anyway after a whole bunch of people die
Step 2: Various forms of resistance act against Israel and it boils into full-ass military conflict a few times. Six day war and whatnot. Israel continues to grow and Palestinians continue to suffer
Step 3: Israel continues to munch up more and more land, displacing more and more Palestinians every year.
Step 4: October 7 happens and the world begs Israel to have mercy. No mercy is given. Then they are begged to reconsider Rafah. They charge right on in. This continues on and on
Step 5: Iran's whole proxy thing gets blown to pieces over the course of Lebanon and Syria and Gaza and Palestinians become supremely screwed.
Step 6: Trump wins. The US military is led by Hagseth, who values Palestinian lives less than extra guac on a burrito. The US ambassador to the UN views the West Bank as biblically destined as part of Israel. Netanyahu has enough bombs and planes to fight off the majority of European countries. Trump says Palestinians need to go and they are all gonna go.
Here we are, almost 80 years later, looking up at the stars and reminding ourselves "where there's a will, there's a way". This isn't Air Bud. No one is going to score one last hoop before the buzzer and save all the Palestinians. Despite everything I said about the value in keeping hope alive
, it is totally nuts to pretend this is some kinda "it ain't over yet" scenario. Like I said, most people are not as prepared as you to recognize they would have been complicit with the Nazis. I'm reasonably confident I would have been killed with the communists or while standing up for some other group, so my behavior/posting today reflects that. Your (and many others over the course of this thread) posting is reflective of someone that would have been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis. That's sorta the point of my sig. I doubt for most of your life you went around believing "If I was around in the 1930's I would have sided with the Nazis" but here you are vociferously making that point.
It depends on how old I was at the time. I am a bit of a weirdo in some very specific ways and I would have cherished the opportunity to throw my life away for a cause more worthwhile than I am when I was in my 20s. Now that I have kids, I'd have just tried to leave as quickly as possible. But if it was not possible to leave, I think I would have done whatever I could have to protect my kids or increase their chances of living.
If there becomes a point in this whole situation in the US where I think it makes sense to leave, I am absolutely just jumping ship and hoping for the best. I've made peace with it. I'm a slave to my obsession with protecting my kids in the immediate future. But for whatever its worth, certain things about me would have been a great fit for fighting nazis
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On February 06 2025 05:04 Nebuchad wrote:
I don't really care what people do or don't do individually, but I do wish we keep a clear distinction between "the fascists in Israel are forcing us to accept a bad option" and "my friends in Israel are forcing us to accept a bad option". Out of respect for my sanity, at the very least.
We aren't being forced to accept anything. We are not a part of this. I am not role-playing as some member of the UN or a nuclear-armed nation. None of us are participants in this situation. Having impassioned views about it is not the same as participating.
I am not accepting or denying anything because no such connection has been made. I am totally irrelevant.
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On February 06 2025 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 04:50 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 04:37 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 03:54 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:40 Gorsameth wrote:On February 06 2025 03:35 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 06 2025 03:10 Mohdoo wrote:On February 06 2025 02:04 Nebuchad wrote:
Pretty surprising how now that Trump is in power suddenly Israel is in favor of ethnically cleansing Palestine, when we all know because we've read the thread that under Biden they were just trying to defend themselves + Show Spoiler +
Small nuance for me: While I of course agree ethnic cleansing has always been a golden dream for Israel, they've also been strategic about to what extent they work towards that, and at what time. I don't think they have been prepared to pull the trigger until now. Now that they have full cover, they are gonna go full-ass.
It looks like the gist of it is:
1: Rubio is getting cold and dirty deals with whatever countries he can to accept immigrants, refugees, prisoners, whatever humans we want to move somewhere else
2: Trump is using his bluster to try to force other countries to take immigrants and refugees
3: Trump has agreements with Netanyahu to develop Gaza and eventually the West Bank where Trump and his faction will insert themselves to profit from it
4: Once all the pieces are in place, basically start rolling up Gaza like a tube of toothpaste where everyone gets on a boat or a plane to whatever country will take them 5: Kill everyone who doesn't go where they are told to go This is basically what Nazis did to Jewish people. When no one (including the US) would take them, they "discovered" a "final solution". That's what you're effectively calling: the " best case scenario for Palestinians" He didn't say it was a good plan, just that this is what is very possible. And I don't think that is a wrong assessment. He called it "best case", and wondered why most people are hesitant to recognize it. I'm pointing out that it's because anyone that doesn't attempt to prevent it by any means necessary would have effectively been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis were they around in 1930's. Most people are not as prepared as you two are to reconcile that reality with their self-image. + Show Spoiler +
I, just like everyone else here, have had many opportunities to be a hero and stand up against evils in the world. I have opted not to at every possible moment. At one point it becomes clear I am not a hero. I wish I were. I wish more people were. When I look at the state of the world, apparently there aren't all that many heroes around.
Nebuchad makes a good point that when people roll over too easily, they immortalize and empower evil people. When we dismiss the validity of hope, we harm enthusiasm and interest of hope, further reducing the chances of it manifesting. This is all true and I of course don't dispute it.
But let me take you back through history a moment and let me know when I get things wrong.
Step 1: The idea to form Israel is brought up. Many impassioned speeches at the UN speak against it. It ends up being formed anyway after a whole bunch of people die
Step 2: Various forms of resistance act against Israel and it boils into full-ass military conflict a few times. Six day war and whatnot. Israel continues to grow and Palestinians continue to suffer
Step 3: Israel continues to munch up more and more land, displacing more and more Palestinians every year.
Step 4: October 7 happens and the world begs Israel to have mercy. No mercy is given. Then they are begged to reconsider Rafah. They charge right on in. This continues on and on
Step 5: Iran's whole proxy thing gets blown to pieces over the course of Lebanon and Syria and Gaza and Palestinians become supremely screwed.
Step 6: Trump wins. The US military is led by Hagseth, who values Palestinian lives less than extra guac on a burrito. The US ambassador to the UN views the West Bank as biblically destined as part of Israel. Netanyahu has enough bombs and planes to fight off the majority of European countries. Trump says Palestinians need to go and they are all gonna go.
Here we are, almost 80 years later, looking up at the stars and reminding ourselves "where there's a will, there's a way". This isn't Air Bud. No one is going to score one last hoop before the buzzer and save all the Palestinians. Despite everything I said about the value in keeping hope alive
, it is totally nuts to pretend this is some kinda "it ain't over yet" scenario. Like I said, most people are not as prepared as you to recognize they would have been complicit with the Nazis. I'm reasonably confident I would have been killed with the communists or while standing up for some other group, so my behavior/posting today reflects that. Your (and many others over the course of this thread) posting is reflective of someone that would have been complicit with/appeasers to the Nazis. That's sorta the point of my sig. I doubt for most of your life you went around believing "If I was around in the 1930's I would have sided with the Nazis" but here you are vociferously making that point. It depends on how old I was at the time. I am a bit of a weirdo in some very specific ways and I would have cherished the opportunity to throw my life away for a cause more worthwhile than I am when I was in my 20s. Now that I have kids, I'd have just tried to leave as quickly as possible. But if it was not possible to leave, I think I would have done whatever I could have to protect my kids or increase their chances of living. If there becomes a point in this whole situation in the US where I think it makes sense to leave, I am absolutely just jumping ship and hoping for the best. I've made peace with it. I'm a slave to my obsession with protecting my kids in the immediate future. But for whatever its worth, certain things about me would have been a great fit for fighting nazis
I think it's a copout to blame your kids for your appeasement of/collaboration with fascists, but agree with Neb in not really caring what you do individually. I was just explaining that most people, even/especially those with children, aren't as ready as you are to abandon their self-perception as "not someone who would collaborate with Nazis/fascists".
You are indeed a "weirdo" in that way. That's really the main reason you don't find more people agreeing with your perspective.
EDIT: Wait till the jackboots start knocking and suddenly you'll have the most popular position in the thread and a few less posters
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Not sure I'd phrase it as blaming them, but your point is valid all the same. I'm a coward and I would do the wrong thing. No disagreement there for sure. And I don't mean that sarcastically. I think the only reason things are as good as they are right now, or used to be, is because of people ignoring their immediate concerns for the good of the future. Choosing not to rise to the challenge is a disrespect to the sacrifice of people who gave their lives so I could have that choice. Its all very straightforward to me and I don't think any other perspective has merit. We live in a bad world whether we want to look at it or not. And no god will save us if we fail to meet the moment.
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Northern Ireland25632 Posts
Could we just kill two birds with one stone and just use Mohdoo IslandTM for the new Palestine?
I kid sir I kid, it comes from a place of love!
Observing basic reality is not the same as complicity, especially when obvious mechanisms for resistance aren’t available.
Like I’m sure there were Germans who went ‘hm, shit it appears we’ve been outmanoeuvred and the Nazis are gonna win here.’ It doesn’t mean such folks were thrilled by the prospect in any way.
I’ve resisted Israel more than I’ve personally resisted any political cause that I hold. It’s still extremely fucking limited, because outside of going to a bunch of Pro-Palestine events, adhering to BDS, advocating on the interwebz doesn’t do shit when ultimately, the US can just decide to do what it does to help its buddy.
If you live in a country such as Ireland that does have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, to the degree that your governing class actually reflect that sentiment and call Israel out, what happens? Israel just withdraws their ambassador and nothing else comes of it.
If you’re in the US you’ve a realistic choice between two parties that love Israel, and electoral cohorts that also broadly support Israel, especially Republicans.
Mohdoo’s just giving the brass tacks as he sees it IMO, and I don’t think he’s wrong either.
Hey remember when a bunch of folks, myself included said yeah the Dems have a shit policy here, but come on if you care about Palestine a Trump platform is going to be considerably worse?
Did I forget to take my crazy pills or did that happen?
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@Mohdoo
Do you want to know why Nazi Germany lost WW2? Because of one man: Churchill. If he hadn't rallied support behind him, there wouldn't have been a two-front war against Nazi Germany. Britain would've made peace with Germany, Russia would've gotten invaded with a much higher chance of success for Germany, and all of Europe would likely now be part of Nazi Germany. You and I would be living under Nazi rule today.
One individual on an island prevented that. And they weren't even more powerful than Germany. They couldn't even win the war by themselves. They just decided to put the foot down.
I mean technically it wasn't just Churchill, it was the combined effort of various individuals in different countries. But if Churchill had made peace with Hitler, Europe would've likely fallen.
The "inevitable" is not so inevitable. Courageous people can prevent the seemingly inevitable.
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Also, I don't think you're a coward, Mohdoo. Running away with your children to save them from tragedy isn't cowardice. Leaving them behind to save your skin alone would be cowardly.
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On February 06 2025 05:28 WombaT wrote:
Could we just kill two birds with one stone and just use Mohdoo IslandTM for the new Palestine?
I kid sir I kid, it comes from a place of love!
Observing basic reality is not the same as complicity, especially when obvious mechanisms for resistance aren’t available.
Like I’m sure there were Germans who went ‘hm, shit it appears we’ve been outmanoeuvred and the Nazis are gonna win here.’ It doesn’t mean such folks were thrilled by the prospect in any way.
I’ve resisted Israel more than I’ve personally resisted any political cause that I hold. It’s still extremely fucking limited, because outside of going to a bunch of Pro-Palestine events, adhering to BDS, advocating on the interwebz doesn’t do shit when ultimately, the US can just decide to do what it does to help its buddy.
If you live in a country such as Ireland that does have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, to the degree that your governing class actually reflect that sentiment and call Israel out, what happens? Israel just withdraws their ambassador and nothing else comes of it.
If you’re in the US you’ve a realistic choice between two parties that love Israel, and electoral cohorts that also broadly support Israel, especially Republicans.
Mohdoo’s just giving the brass tacks as he sees it IMO, and I don’t think he’s wrong either.
Hey remember when a bunch of folks, myself included said yeah the Dems have a shit policy here, but come on if you care about Palestine a Trump platform is going to be considerably worse?
Did I forget to take my crazy pills or did that happen?
When the nazi came to power, they slaughtered the kpd and just after the spd. I don't feel sorry at all for the latter as those morons even helped Hindenburg getting elected, lol, there really were a bunch of conservative idiots, hitler would have never scratch the power if they had stood their ground.
As of today, if the moderates don't wanna change, that's fine, they will follow the leftists in their fall and pretty hard.
If moderates are so responsible like you wombat, they would make some concession about the armement shipped to israel or the diplomatic support or economical sanction but... None actually. Weird right ? They rather die than make the slightest concession and fight against growing fascism, they gonna die just like those idiots of the spd who helped the election of hindenburg.
The moderates didn't stand against the far right, they let this insane dishumanization go on, they gave legitimacy to the slaughter of ten of thousand of children by a supremacist state. They supported the israeli narrative to the point they helped the repression of pro palestinian movement. They literally sided with all the far right and then, leftists should be obliged to vote for them ?
Like how after they supported the supremacist views of Israël it is possible to take the high ground ?
And how the fuck it is considerably worse ? Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing. What Trump is doing is what the israeli right who is in power is saying they're gonna do since one year and half and Biden and Kamela MASSIVELY SUPPLIED THEM WITH WEAPONS while protecting them at the un and every international courts.
For god sake, I am so triggered by this sheer hypocrisy.
I rather go in exile than vote or campaigning for such individuals. While I would agree on othe subjects the left has been pretty terrible, on the palestinian affair, the center has just compromised itselft with all the worst while taking the moral highground and looking responsible. The same kind of responsability which enabled the nazi.
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Northern Ireland25632 Posts
On February 06 2025 07:25 Magic Powers wrote:
@Mohdoo
Do you want to know why Nazi Germany lost WW2? Because of one man: Churchill. If he hadn't rallied support behind him, there wouldn't have been a two-front war against Nazi Germany. Britain would've made peace with Germany, Russia would've gotten invaded with a much higher chance of success for Germany, and all of Europe would likely now be part of Nazi Germany. You and I would be living under Nazi rule today.
One individual on an island prevented that. And they weren't even more powerful than Germany. They couldn't even win the war by themselves. They just decided to put the foot down.
I mean technically it wasn't just Churchill, it was the combined effort of various individuals in different countries. But if Churchill had made peace with Hitler, Europe would've likely fallen.
The "inevitable" is not so inevitable. Courageous people can prevent the seemingly inevitable.
Last I checked, Mohdoo isn’t in a similar position to Winston Churchill. Perhaps he is a world leader and he does the whole TL thing on the side.
It’s a huge, and IMO erroneous part of our national mythos that we went against the Nazis because they were bad blokes and blokettes.
Part of it, sure. But a huge part of it, and even more so in WW1 was we’re top dog (or at least top tier by WW2), and we can’t be having others with ambitions of Empire upsetting the applecart. Fucking with the world order, an order we’re sitting pretty atop of.
The US didn’t enter the fray until Japan made that untenable, and the Soviet Union actively cut deals with Hitler.
Basically nobody actually resisted the Nazis for moral reasons alone. They either got attacked directly by them, or had their interests threatened by them. Not saying they weren’t a factor, that would be stretching it.
That aside, it’s still a very different situation to Israel/Palestine.
In wider geographical terms, the Nazis weren’t exactly far away. They were also pissing in the cornflakes of some other very powerful nations. Nazi Germany was also an actual existential threat to nearby states.
Israel is not especially nearby to most of ‘the West’, or that intimately culturally connected, nor is it any kind of threat to it. Most importantly, the world’s most powerful nation has its back, almost unconditionally.
So what is there to be doing?
In a parallel reality where the US didn’t back Israel to the hilt, you probably have something less shit. Maybe something vaguely similar to the anti-Apartheid movement and what that did. Or alternatively in another reality, if the US had just backed South Africa’s apartheid regime to the hilt, it probably persists much, much longer.
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