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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On February 06 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 05:28 WombaT wrote:
Could we just kill two birds with one stone and just use Mohdoo IslandTM for the new Palestine?
I kid sir I kid, it comes from a place of love!
Observing basic reality is not the same as complicity, especially when obvious mechanisms for resistance aren’t available.
Like I’m sure there were Germans who went ‘hm, shit it appears we’ve been outmanoeuvred and the Nazis are gonna win here.’ It doesn’t mean such folks were thrilled by the prospect in any way.
I’ve resisted Israel more than I’ve personally resisted any political cause that I hold. It’s still extremely fucking limited, because outside of going to a bunch of Pro-Palestine events, adhering to BDS, advocating on the interwebz doesn’t do shit when ultimately, the US can just decide to do what it does to help its buddy.
If you live in a country such as Ireland that does have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, to the degree that your governing class actually reflect that sentiment and call Israel out, what happens? Israel just withdraws their ambassador and nothing else comes of it.
If you’re in the US you’ve a realistic choice between two parties that love Israel, and electoral cohorts that also broadly support Israel, especially Republicans.
Mohdoo’s just giving the brass tacks as he sees it IMO, and I don’t think he’s wrong either.
Hey remember when a bunch of folks, myself included said yeah the Dems have a shit policy here, but come on if you care about Palestine a Trump platform is going to be considerably worse?
Did I forget to take my crazy pills or did that happen?
When the nazi came to power, they slaughtered the kpd and just after the spd. That could be my satisfaction. I would never ever give my vote to moderates who still support israel, I rather go in exile or in prison that giving my vote for supporters of a supremacist state with such policies. Taking the moral highground while giving your vote for a guy or a woman who actively supports an ethnic cleansing is pretty insane. The fact the other is openly supporting it doesn't make it better for the other side.
But have you ever faced the threat of prison for having that stance in actuality? Talk is famously cheap and all that.
I do, and have defended, consistently people’s right to decide ‘look, all of these options transgress my moral boundaries, I don’t consent to any of them, I don’t want to be complicit.’
I do object to lecturing others for not doing enough if you’re someone who didn’t do the bare minimum in harm reduction.
If, however you’re putting in the hard yards fundraising, or politically organising for the cause, then fair enough.
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On February 06 2025 08:44 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:On February 06 2025 05:28 WombaT wrote:
Could we just kill two birds with one stone and just use Mohdoo IslandTM for the new Palestine?
I kid sir I kid, it comes from a place of love!
Observing basic reality is not the same as complicity, especially when obvious mechanisms for resistance aren’t available.
Like I’m sure there were Germans who went ‘hm, shit it appears we’ve been outmanoeuvred and the Nazis are gonna win here.’ It doesn’t mean such folks were thrilled by the prospect in any way.
I’ve resisted Israel more than I’ve personally resisted any political cause that I hold. It’s still extremely fucking limited, because outside of going to a bunch of Pro-Palestine events, adhering to BDS, advocating on the interwebz doesn’t do shit when ultimately, the US can just decide to do what it does to help its buddy.
If you live in a country such as Ireland that does have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, to the degree that your governing class actually reflect that sentiment and call Israel out, what happens? Israel just withdraws their ambassador and nothing else comes of it.
If you’re in the US you’ve a realistic choice between two parties that love Israel, and electoral cohorts that also broadly support Israel, especially Republicans.
Mohdoo’s just giving the brass tacks as he sees it IMO, and I don’t think he’s wrong either.
Hey remember when a bunch of folks, myself included said yeah the Dems have a shit policy here, but come on if you care about Palestine a Trump platform is going to be considerably worse?
Did I forget to take my crazy pills or did that happen?
When the nazi came to power, they slaughtered the kpd and just after the spd. That could be my satisfaction. I would never ever give my vote to moderates who still support israel, I rather go in exile or in prison that giving my vote for supporters of a supremacist state with such policies. Taking the moral highground while giving your vote for a guy or a woman who actively supports an ethnic cleansing is pretty insane. The fact the other is openly supporting it doesn't make it better for the other side. But have you ever faced the threat of prison for having that stance in actuality? Talk is famously cheap and all that. I do, and have defended, consistently people’s right to decide ‘look, all of these options transgress my moral boundaries, I don’t consent to any of them, I don’t want to be complicit.’ I do object to lecturing others for not doing enough if you’re someone who didn’t do the bare minimum in harm reduction. If, however you’re putting in the hard yards fundraising, or politically organising for the cause, then fair enough.
Lol, you act as you know me a lot however I don't have anything to say to you about my activism or my relation toward southern lebanese or palestinians. I can only say that contrary to let's say 99% of the posters of this forum, I feel very priveleged to have some as my friends.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On February 06 2025 08:54 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 08:44 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 08:15 stilt wrote:On February 06 2025 05:28 WombaT wrote:
Could we just kill two birds with one stone and just use Mohdoo IslandTM for the new Palestine?
I kid sir I kid, it comes from a place of love!
Observing basic reality is not the same as complicity, especially when obvious mechanisms for resistance aren’t available.
Like I’m sure there were Germans who went ‘hm, shit it appears we’ve been outmanoeuvred and the Nazis are gonna win here.’ It doesn’t mean such folks were thrilled by the prospect in any way.
I’ve resisted Israel more than I’ve personally resisted any political cause that I hold. It’s still extremely fucking limited, because outside of going to a bunch of Pro-Palestine events, adhering to BDS, advocating on the interwebz doesn’t do shit when ultimately, the US can just decide to do what it does to help its buddy.
If you live in a country such as Ireland that does have a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian people, to the degree that your governing class actually reflect that sentiment and call Israel out, what happens? Israel just withdraws their ambassador and nothing else comes of it.
If you’re in the US you’ve a realistic choice between two parties that love Israel, and electoral cohorts that also broadly support Israel, especially Republicans.
Mohdoo’s just giving the brass tacks as he sees it IMO, and I don’t think he’s wrong either.
Hey remember when a bunch of folks, myself included said yeah the Dems have a shit policy here, but come on if you care about Palestine a Trump platform is going to be considerably worse?
Did I forget to take my crazy pills or did that happen?
When the nazi came to power, they slaughtered the kpd and just after the spd. That could be my satisfaction. I would never ever give my vote to moderates who still support israel, I rather go in exile or in prison that giving my vote for supporters of a supremacist state with such policies. Taking the moral highground while giving your vote for a guy or a woman who actively supports an ethnic cleansing is pretty insane. The fact the other is openly supporting it doesn't make it better for the other side. But have you ever faced the threat of prison for having that stance in actuality? Talk is famously cheap and all that. I do, and have defended, consistently people’s right to decide ‘look, all of these options transgress my moral boundaries, I don’t consent to any of them, I don’t want to be complicit.’ I do object to lecturing others for not doing enough if you’re someone who didn’t do the bare minimum in harm reduction. If, however you’re putting in the hard yards fundraising, or politically organising for the cause, then fair enough. Lol, you act as you know me a lot however I don't have anything to say to you about my activism or my relation toward southern lebanese or palestinians. I can only say that contrary to let's say 99% of the posters of this forum, I feel very priveleged to have some as my friends.
I was using ‘you’ in the generic sense, I didn’t mean to be targeting any kind of specific criticism and apologies if it came across that way.
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You know, in Squid Game Season 2, where we do actually see + Show Spoiler +a small group of players heroically — and arguably unrealistically — steal guns from the guards and make a legitimate attempt to overthrow their oppressors keeping them there in a deadly situation, that group is still smart enough to vote X in the meantime.
I understand what's being said in the thread and you can probably rightly put me in coward camp along with Mohdoo, but I also don't think I can ever understand how anyone can call Gaza their #1 issue and then go and put their political principles above voting for reducing harm on millions of people.
EDIT: Basically what WombaT said.
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Sorry I can't help myself, it'll be my only off topic post
+ Show Spoiler +
Squid Game is absurdly dumb though, because at the moment where he decides to do violent revolution they're literally 48 vs 47. Of course there's a night coming and there's a decent chance that some people die during the night, but it's nowhere near obvious that you can't win this fight. Just do barricades like you did in season 1, protect your people. Instead his plan is to let a bunch of his people die (???) attack the guards to take their guns, for some reason not take all their ammo (???), have his comically small group of people guard an unnecessary position (???) while only two of them go at the boss (???)
This is actually insulting Gihun's intelligence, the idea that he would choose to do that. The guy from season 1 would never make these terrible choices. In both seasons Squid Game is doing pretty well and then the scenario commits suicide in the last episode I can't it's so stupid
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless.
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On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless.
Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront.
It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though.
Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view.
But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour.
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On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour.
That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better.
It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well.
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well.
Maybe slightly better in what universe? In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of.
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Or the far more believable. that Biden was requiring the Israeli far right to make concessions that Trump does not even want.
Out of curiosity for all the people that really really hate fascists but see Hamas and friends more positively. What are the Material differences that make Hamas so much better than Fascists?
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On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of .
Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide.
Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for.
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On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for.
Did you really? I would have been very surprised if that had changed anything on that level.
It could change some of the media coverage and how average people talk about it, but that's about it.
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On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well.
Biden is the other type of evil, the one that virtue signals to every part of his base and then ends up aiding the enemies of a significant but small portion of his base. He walks over corpses and bets that people are too distracted to notice. It's a successful formula (Obama did the same thing while dropping countless bombs).
To reiterate, Biden finger-wagged at Israel so they would let the promised number of aid trucks through, then he stayed completely silent when Israel's administration expectedly changed fuck all. Netanyahu ran circles around Biden. He bullied Biden. How?
Left-wingers and moderates will forget all about that because now finally there's a ceasefire (although the continuation of that is still very uncertain).
Moving forward they can blame Trump (rightfully so of course, but that doesn't absolve the Democrats), which is actually quite convenient for the Democrats. It allows them to stay on the offensive even though they're themselves part of the genocide enablers and morally speaking they should have to play defense around that. With Trump in office they won't have to. They'll continue with their "Trump bad" blame game. Mass deportations, taxes, mass deportations, union busting, Elon's corruption, mass deportations, Gaza, mass deportations, the Paris climate accords, people's data, did I mention mass deportations, etc. They'll use this cycle of blame to distract from their own faults (such as not addressing homelessness and mass incarcerations, or doing little to stop corrupt police departments).
Just look at this. The Democrats are becoming morally bankrupt, appeasing right-wingers more and more. This is not fake news, this is real.
https://time.com/7014604/changes-to-democrats-criminal-justice-platform/
Even AOC herself has a significant number of supporters who voted for Trump! Can you believe it? She openly addressed this multiple times lately because it's so mind-boggling. The same individuals voting for both AOC and Trump? How is this even possible?
Democrats won't have to change their approach fundamentally (or rather they don't think they have to). As long as they can keep playing the anti-Trump card, they can get away with their pretentious fake moral high ground while moving further to the right. They'll get into power well enough, perhaps not in spite of that, but perhaps precisely because of it?
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On February 07 2025 02:27 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. Did you really? I would have been very surprised if that had changed anything on that level. It could change some of the media coverage and how average people talk about it, but that's about it.
Mohdoo might be lonely in acknowledging it, but it turns out that a* shocking (at least to me) number of people on TL and in the West generally are openly, demonstrably, and willingly appeasing/complicit in fascism/genocide for their own comfort.
Trump is just making it irrefutably clear imo I guess.
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On February 07 2025 02:40 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 02:27 Nebuchad wrote:On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for. Did you really? I would have been very surprised if that had changed anything on that level. It could change some of the media coverage and how average people talk about it, but that's about it. Mohdoo might be lonely in acknowledging it, but it turns out that shocking (at least to me) number of people on TL and in the West generally are openly, demonstrably, and willingly appeasing/complicit in fascism/genocide for their own comfort. Trump is just making it irrefutably clear imo I guess.
Why would that surprise you? It is exactly what you are doing on the plight of the Uighur, even making extremely distasteful jokes at their expense.
If people wanted Trump to actually back off what they should tell him is that he is copying the communist playbook which they used on the Crimean Tatars.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Tatars
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United States41958 Posts
The white house press secretary was asked if there was a written plan for Gaza and if so who drafted it. She explained that no, there was no written plan, the plan was written as Trump announced it, but that they were working on it.
They had literally no idea that he was going to annex Gaza, there was no indication of this before Netanyahu had a 1:1 with him, he can just be talked into things by foreign leaders.
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On February 07 2025 03:40 KwarK wrote:
The white house press secretary was asked if there was a written plan for Gaza and if so who drafted it. She explained that no, there was no written plan, the plan was written as Trump announced it, but that they were working on it.
They had literally no idea that he was going to annex Gaza, there was no indication of this before Netanyahu had a 1:1 with him, he can just be talked into things by foreign leaders.
Maybe we just need one rich arab guy to go in and tell Trump how awesome he is in such smooth language that he announces the creation of the state of Palestine
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Northern Ireland23759 Posts
On February 07 2025 01:59 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 01:28 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2025 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 07 2025 01:06 WombaT wrote:On February 06 2025 10:19 Turbovolver wrote:On February 06 2025 10:05 Nebuchad wrote:
Voting won't change the situation, not voting won't change the situation either. All of these debates are useless. Yeah, you're probably right. And like you said before one's local politics is where they have any real possibility of influence, which also lends itself a bit more to putting those politics and one's principles at the forefront. It's only so much accelerationist gloating I can read before I start wondering how much one truly cares, though. + Show Spoiler +Because one is voting in a context where attitudes are what they are.
Ireland, IIRC Spain was another that called out Israeli war crimes and recognised a Palestinian claim to statehood.
They’re not magical lands of love and fairness, they just have more people proportionally sympathetic there, and governments that somewhat reflect it.
So yeah, voting in the current US context isn’t really the issue, it’s that Americans broadly support Israel.
Let’s assume that over the next bit, American attitudes shift to the degree that the Democratic Party’s natural base is considerably less pro-Israel than before. Well then maybe they have to shift to be electable, and you gotta vote to have an appreciably different foreign policy.
Incidentally as I said before I have sympathy with a ‘both my realistic options are shit, I’m not voting out of conscience’ view. But you had supposed Palestinian single-issue folks voting for Trump, and that’s just actively insane behaviour. That was not an appreciable number of people. That said, Trump's incompetence, narcissism, and inability not to say the quiet part loud, is probably just as likely to stop Israel's ethnic cleansing campaign as Democrat's aiding and abetting it was, maybe slightly better. It's really hard for Democrats/the rest of the west to keep pretending they aren't playing a complacent and complicit role in genocide as well. Maybe slightly better in what universe? + Show Spoiler +In other domains Trump’s deficiencies probably do come to bear, in this particular one all Israel need is the US to get off their back so they can do what they want.
Which he said he would do, has so far done, and last time around threw them bones such as recognising Jerusalem as the capital.
Hey look it’s Donald Trump’s son-in-law’s peace plan that fucks the Palestinians from every angle possible!
While the Democratic Party can also be fairly called to be massively deficient here, Trump and the GOP are worse again. They just are, there’s no counterpoints to this direction of travel that I’m aware of . Under Biden, Democrats, Republicans, and Europeans were all able to continue supporting/refusing to sanction Israel while plausibly denying (at least among themselves) that they were complicit in genocide. Trump has taken that away from all of them. Unfortunately, so far it looks like that won't stop their complicity. The Western world is worse than even I was giving them credit for.
This is arse backwards as ultimately what the US wants as per Israel, goes.
Outside of posturing the likes of Europe can’t really do shit, outside of maybe some big gigantic European groundswell, nada.
Once the calculus changes from ‘unlikely but slim’ with the Dems to ‘absolutely fucking not’ with Trump, well the calculus starts looking worse.
It’s an obvious net loss, unless one is more concerned with scolding people for their complicity than sensible politics.
I’m not even sure a hypothetical ‘Europe as 1 for Palestine’, as unlikely as it is even outweighs the US’ interests there. Maybe? But I’m skeptical on that.
Hey remember when some European states called for the likes of Netanyahu to be prosecuted and whatnot? Remember how nothing happened?
The ball is firmly in America’s court, and they’ve handed the ball to Donald Trump of all people.
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United States41958 Posts
On February 07 2025 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 03:40 KwarK wrote:
The white house press secretary was asked if there was a written plan for Gaza and if so who drafted it. She explained that no, there was no written plan, the plan was written as Trump announced it, but that they were working on it.
They had literally no idea that he was going to annex Gaza, there was no indication of this before Netanyahu had a 1:1 with him, he can just be talked into things by foreign leaders. Maybe we just need one rich arab guy to go in and tell Trump how awesome he is in such smooth language that he announces the creation of the state of Palestine
That would genuinely work.
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On February 07 2025 03:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2025 03:46 Nebuchad wrote:On February 07 2025 03:40 KwarK wrote:
The white house press secretary was asked if there was a written plan for Gaza and if so who drafted it. She explained that no, there was no written plan, the plan was written as Trump announced it, but that they were working on it.
They had literally no idea that he was going to annex Gaza, there was no indication of this before Netanyahu had a 1:1 with him, he can just be talked into things by foreign leaders. Maybe we just need one rich arab guy to go in and tell Trump how awesome he is in such smooth language that he announces the creation of the state of Palestine That would genuinely work.
It would work in the sense that he would proudly announce it, make massive controversial news and people like oblade and jjr would talk about brilliant it would be. But like this and 98% of what he says nothing would come of it.
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EPT
