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On October 10 2023 05:50 Nebuchad wrote: It'd be pretty strange for the fascists to launch an attack on the subhumans and then exercize restraint, especially after Netanyahu sent his "Civilians should go away" cringe. Tens of thousands are going to die, most likely. And support from politicians in Europe will be unwavering.
Which ones are the fascists?
My post is very clear Jimmi, you're not confused.
No I am, I do not see how you think Israel is more right than Hamas, please explain? If you can't stop shoehorning into every topic Left vs right. This is roger waters level bad logic.
I do not need Israel to be more right than Hamas in order to write the tweet I wrote Jimmi.
You do have it make sense. Unless you think a comment like "the American socialists are starving out their political enemies like Cuba".
Well that statement doesn't make any sense Jimmi. As opposed to what I wrote, which makes sense. I believe that's the main difference between the two.
It really does not. The subhuman and fascist "sarcasm" doesn't work. Especially when you all the sudden stop mid paragraph with no tone.
That's because it's not sarcasm Jimmi. The fascist government of Israel has literally announced that they're at war against the subhumans, as exemplified by Israel's Defense minister Yoav Gallant, who said "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly." It is my sincere belief that they will kill tens of thousands of them.
I do not think it is very natural, in those circumstances, to have a fascism competition, I don't think that's a very useful way to spend your time. But don't worry it's obvious that your natural reaction was just "Neb or Drone posted something, I have to attack", and it wasn't really about the real world events.
Israel is not a Fascist state, it is moving towards fascism through elections. A huge part of Fascism is that authoritarianism and killing off the opposition. Along with a bunch of other things.
If you are using hyperbole you don't do it against someone who is more of that than you. I would not talk about what a giant you were for instance because that wouldn't make any sense.
@drone stop harassing me.
You could have saved 4 shit posts by simply opening with this. It was very clear he was calling the Israeli government fascists.
And I don't see much point in discussion if they are or are not. Its semantics. But I share his fear. Israel, and more specifically Netanyahu will take this opportunity of the world standing in shock at the attack to commit, lets call it what it will be, genocide in Gaza.
No I am, I do not see how you think Israel is more right than Hamas, please explain? If you can't stop shoehorning into every topic Left vs right. This is roger waters level bad logic.
I do not need Israel to be more right than Hamas in order to write the tweet I wrote Jimmi.
You do have it make sense. Unless you think a comment like "the American socialists are starving out their political enemies like Cuba".
Well that statement doesn't make any sense Jimmi. As opposed to what I wrote, which makes sense. I believe that's the main difference between the two.
It really does not. The subhuman and fascist "sarcasm" doesn't work. Especially when you all the sudden stop mid paragraph with no tone.
That's because it's not sarcasm Jimmi. The fascist government of Israel has literally announced that they're at war against the subhumans, as exemplified by Israel's Defense minister Yoav Gallant, who said "I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza Strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly." It is my sincere belief that they will kill tens of thousands of them.
I do not think it is very natural, in those circumstances, to have a fascism competition, I don't think that's a very useful way to spend your time. But don't worry it's obvious that your natural reaction was just "Neb or Drone posted something, I have to attack", and it wasn't really about the real world events.
Israel is not a Fascist state, it is moving towards fascism through elections. A huge part of Fascism is that authoritarianism and killing off the opposition. Along with a bunch of other things.
If you are using hyperbole you don't do it against someone who is more of that than you. I would not talk about what a giant you were for instance because that wouldn't make any sense.
@drone stop harassing me.
You could have saved 4 shit posts by simply opening with this. It was very clear he was calling the Israeli government fascists.
And I don't see much point in discussion if they are or are not. Its semantics. But I share his fear. Israel, and more specifically Netanyahu will take this opportunity of the world standing in shock at the attack to commit, lets call it what it will be, genocide in Gaza.
Which is going to be awful and there was pages of discussion about why and how complicated it was. There is no need for the insulting shit posts that insult one side for somethign the other side does the same or in this case more of. its dumb.
It is just cool to insult Israel if you are a starbucks communist, who cares if its accurate.
Jimmy it is literally an ethnostate that has shirked its few obligations it agreed to and has 2 million of its neighbours penned into a cage with little to no prospects.
Read any press release from anyone with governmental influence since these tragic events and it’s the language of violence, the language of the other. Not a proportional response but a ‘we will crush them’ rhetoric that’s consistent, and probably for a reason. Namely the Israeli populace respond well to it.
Rhetoric that makes Donald Trump seem positively circumspect and considered.
This is not to deny that many folks in there want peace, are tolerant etc but the state really doesn’t exactly exemplify these values.
On October 10 2023 07:25 WombaT wrote: Not a proportional response but a ‘we will crush them’ rhetoric that’s consistent, and probably for a reason. Namely the Israeli populace respond well to it.
What is a proportional response in this case, btw? With terror attacks like this - is a proportional response to just do the same to the offenders and murder/rape a bunch of civilians on the other side? Probably not. They obviously cannot not to react very harshly, but also nobody here wants a genocide which might happen soon. So what do we think would be a proper response to this?
I really really hope they didn't serously think that they could take hostages in a raid and then negotiate a settlment after. this looks like weak bait for people to blame isreal for not considering giving peace a chance.
I really really hope they didn't serously think that they could take hostages in a raid and then negotiate a settlment after. this looks like weak bait for people to blame isreal for not considering giving peace a chance.
Well, in 2011 Israel released over 1k prisoners to trade for 1 soldier captured by Hamas. I guess they think they can do something similar now?
What the heck, those 1k prisoners collectively killed 569 Israelis... Some of them were resposible for deaths of 10+ people, why did Israel let those go free?
"In July 2015, Israeli news sources calculated that six Israelis had been killed in incidents involving prisoners released under the Shalit deal who had returned to militant activity" - what did they expect, really? It could be many more than six, there could be - and probably are - other murders where it just couldn't be confirmed.
On October 10 2023 09:35 ZeroByte13 wrote: What the heck, those 1k prisoners collectively killed 569 Israelis... Some of them were resposible for deaths of 10+ people, why did Israel let those free?
The constant attacks from both sides ending in prisoner exchanges that just resets everything to status quo has been mocked quite a bit over the years. It was a central point in the movie Don't Mess With The Zohan (Which would have been a lot more fun to watch 1 week ago..)
Good rehash on the history of the regions around Israel for anyone interested (touches a bit on where Hamas came from, why and how Israel's neighbors are arming up etc.).
On October 10 2023 08:22 Manit0u wrote: Actually the worst thing about this whole conflict is that no one is entirely in the right and supporting either side is bad.
Israel is becoming more radicalized (authoritarian) and outside threats like that help solidify that position.
Israel settling on formerly Palestinian land is pretty bad, especially that this puts civilians on the forefront.
Israel is bullying everyone around them and using highly dubious methods to do so.
Hamas is a radicalized religious zealot group and nothing good has ever come from that.
They're using terror as a means of fighting, killing a lot of civilians in the process.
Their methods are cruel and barbaric when it comes to handling the opposing civilian population on territories they managed to capture.
This is literally "which evil do you prefer?" scenario and I kinda don't want any part of that.
The whole thing is just fucked.
Israel will use any tiny little attack throughout history to justify encroaching more land and implementing more authoritarian tactics to rule over the Palestinians.
Hamas will use any bit of relatiation/aggression by the IDF to use a propaganda, recruitment, and justify staging even bigger attacks and rocket fire.
It's a never ending cycle. Neither side is willing to back down and both continue to radicalize.
On October 09 2023 19:50 Acrofales wrote: 2014* Wasn't Jared Kushner in charge of peace in the middle east in Trump's presidency? You implying he didn't get them to negotiate a solution?
No, 2014 would still be under Obama. Trump didn't take office until early 2017. To my knowledge, Kushner was not able to do anything even close to making an agreement.
On October 10 2023 00:25 Excludos wrote: Before that was the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. This was directly initiated by the previous six-day-war, which was completely tanked by literally everyone involved. Half the participants of the conflict didn't even bother showing up. The plan was drawn up by the US (Under Obama), and rejected by both Palestine and Israel (Both wholly embraced by the rest of the Arab world, who have continued to endorse it several times since). Israel did not want to withdraw to their pre-1967 borders. Palestine state head(s) were in favor, but Gaza (Hamas) were not. Hamas performing a terrorist attack on the day before the initiative likely did not sweeten the mood of the Israeli negotiators. In fact they used this exactly as an argument for telling Palestine to f-off. They were also worried about the large numbers of refugees into Israel, which is pretty dumb in my opinion as these people aren't going to disappear over night. At some point they will have to deal with them. Israel has since been on the fence about this plan over the years, ranging from outright rejection to "Eh, maybe?" all the way up to 2015, with Netanyahu again rejecting it in 2018.
This would be during George W Bush's term, not Obama's.
On October 09 2023 22:30 ChristianS wrote: Huh, okay. So your worry is about current occupants of Gaza (and anyone who sneaks in to get included in the citizenship deal).
I mean, I don’t know what to say. That’s an enormous population, including a huge number of children, that are living in a legal limbo because Israel won’t give them legal status and Palestine isn’t a state. But they have to stay that way forever because we can never know for certain they won’t be violent? I guess that’s “One state solution” off the table for you.
What about “two state solution”? If we gave those people a government of their own, with territorial sovereignty and citizenship, and a right not to be bombed and occupied by the IDF all the time, that wouldn’t mean giving them the right to freely wander Israel. The “right to return” folks still won’t be happy, but would that look more like an acceptable outcome to you?
A two state solution is essentially what they have right now, except in name. That's why Hamas is in charge of Gaza, not the Israeli government.
In this situation, the options are all bad. The status quo is to remain in this pseudo two state system with the constant stream of terror attacks and rocket attacks meant to indiscriminately kill Israeli civilians. Then the IDF retaliates and usually kills more than the initial attack. This larger terror attack is a part of the status quo, just amped up a bit and we'll see what Israel does in response. Will they do their typical retaliatory strikes and leave it at that or will the really go for change?
So far Israel has been acting like prison wardens who toss prisoners all in the cage together and let the prisoners sort it out. It turns out the nastiest prisoners (Hamas) rose to the top and rule the place. This time they successfully organized a large scale attack on the guards on the outside.
If we actually want to end this abhorrent situation, then we're going to have to temporarily create an even more abhorrent situation. My recommendation for Israel would be to take complete ownership of Gaza. Stop being guards that hang out on the outside and start actually policing the prison. It would take a huge force to accomplish, and maybe they just don't have a big enough force to do it.
They need to go full Big Brother on Palestine. Completely disarm the Gaza populace. Have a massive spy network and arrest troublemakers.
There also needs to be a massive re-education program. Unfortunately, the children of Gaza are taught to hate from an early age. Just look at Drone's student from Somalia. He has no connection to Israel, yet was still clearly taught to hate. Drone managed to teach him to only hate some Jews for where they were born (Way to go man! Only a little hate! Good success). Palestinian children are much more indoctrinated to hate. That sort of shit needs to be driven out. Mandatory schooling with a pro-Israel curriculum.
The upshot would be that they could slowly integrate Gaza Palestinians into the larger Israeli society. Make a 50 year plan and at the end of those 50 years, Gaza is not a separate entity at all, merely another location in Israel without need for any more restriction of movement. It could even include a process towards full citizenship with people who have been vetted by the Israeli system for decades and their descendants.
There are considered to be problems with occupying a neighboring state, putting all their people into reeducation and work camps, establishing a secret police, and brutally repressing any opposition. That’s probably why they haven’t done it. It’s probably why they still won’t. Bordering a failed state that hates you isn’t ideal but it’s a lot less work than having to run that failed state.
People havn't looked at what america has tried to do in iraq and Afghanistan and said "Yeah that was a good idea I should try that.". There is no one that will come out to nation state build in Palestine. There is no one that will offer the hundreds of thousands of troops to a UN peacekeepning effort. Palestine is like hati, no one wants to solve the issue and no one is sure of if they want the solutions available to them.
I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
On October 10 2023 00:25 Excludos wrote: Before that was the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative. This was directly initiated by the previous six-day-war, which was completely tanked by literally everyone involved. Half the participants of the conflict didn't even bother showing up. The plan was drawn up by the US (Under Obama), and rejected by both Palestine and Israel (Both wholly embraced by the rest of the Arab world, who have continued to endorse it several times since). Israel did not want to withdraw to their pre-1967 borders. Palestine state head(s) were in favor, but Gaza (Hamas) were not. Hamas performing a terrorist attack on the day before the initiative likely did not sweeten the mood of the Israeli negotiators. In fact they used this exactly as an argument for telling Palestine to f-off. They were also worried about the large numbers of refugees into Israel, which is pretty dumb in my opinion as these people aren't going to disappear over night. At some point they will have to deal with them. Israel has since been on the fence about this plan over the years, ranging from outright rejection to "Eh, maybe?" all the way up to 2015, with Netanyahu again rejecting it in 2018.
This would be during George W Bush's term, not Obama's.
Yeah, duh. No idea how I missed that. Just caught Obama's name and didn't think much more of it, but that was a reference to talks that happened later.
On October 10 2023 13:13 KwarK wrote: There are considered to be problems with occupying a neighboring state, putting all their people into reeducation and work camps, establishing a secret police, and brutally repressing any opposition. That’s probably why they haven’t done it. It’s probably why they still won’t. Bordering a failed state that hates you isn’t ideal but it’s a lot less work than having to run that failed state.
On October 10 2023 13:24 Sermokala wrote: People havn't looked at what america has tried to do in iraq and Afghanistan and said "Yeah that was a good idea I should try that.". There is no one that will come out to nation state build in Palestine. There is no one that will offer the hundreds of thousands of troops to a UN peacekeepning effort. Palestine is like hati, no one wants to solve the issue and no one is sure of if they want the solutions available to them.
Yes, building a nation state is hard any time. However, there are differences.
1a) America in Afghanistan was trying to nation build on the other side of the globe in a country we didn't give a shit about. We just wanted Al Qaeda destroyed. 1b) Israel in Gaza would be consuming a neighboring territory. Many countries in history have taken over neighboring territories with mixed levels of success. Israel's safety depends on a peaceful Gaza, so they have incentive to care long term.
2a) America did not have patience in Afghanistan, again stemming from not actually caring. Our 20 years in Afghanistan is barely 1 generation. If we could have held on for more like 50 years, I think it would have been a success despite huge hurdles. Raise generations in the western way while letting the old way die out. Instead, in 20 years we got a part of a generation that was starting to learn the western ways and then their support dried up. The Taliban came out of hiding and was ready to fight while we didn't prepare the new generation to fight on their own. 2b) Israel would have an incentive to stay long term, actually permanently by adding Gaza to Israel. What happens in Gaza very directly effects Israel and can't simply be ignored like most Americans ignore Haiti.
3a) America tried to give everyone rights. We decided that all Iraq and Afghanistan needed was elections and that freedom would totally fix things. So we went in and took out the old totalitarian regime and somehow expected things to magically be better. 3b) I'm not suggesting that for Israel at all. The last time Gaza had elections, they voted for Hamas. I don't expect the next vote to be any better. No self rule, no votes. Not a lot of freedom. However, more economic prosperity and better living conditions. Put in place a long term plan towards Palestinian citizenship in Israel, which is where they'd get real rights.
It would take a massive amount of work. Israel is currently calling up 300,000 reservists. That would be a force large enough to start the plan. However, they won't be able to sustain 300,000+ troops for over a decade though. They'd need to very quickly vet Palestinians to help enforce the new way of life.
I agree that nobody wants to do it, but if you want an actual solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict that doesn't involve genocide, there it is.
I really don't see it happening though. As Kwark says, it's a lot less work to border a failed state than to try to run it. I predict Israel will create a path of rubble and dead bodies in the quest to destroy Hamas. Then it's back to the status quo as the Palestinians are left to determine who's next in charge of the Gaza prison.
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
Nobody really planned it. A bunch of people tried to stop it. There was a whole war over it. Then another. And a third.
EPT
