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In my opinion there will be no negotiating about the hostages.
Israeli government, inteligence service and military all failed spectacularly to protect the settlers and are blaming each other. Looks like like the bodycount will reach 1000 dead Israelis.
They need to save face and present results quickly. The most rightwing government in Israel for decades with Netanjahu at the Helm is not going to take the L and put their priority on rescuing their citizens. There will be a large scale offensive producing quick successes (dead "terrorists"), they wil try to take control of all of Gaza and there will be thousands of dead Palestinians.
Hamas went full ISIS with the barbarism. You don't negotiate with that. Everyone, apart from the usual suspects, is on Israels side. The rightwingers in power will not let that opportunity slide, this time they can get away with everything they want and there will have been plans in the drawer for Gaza. Now they can execute the more extreme ones and the international community will let it happen.
On October 10 2023 13:13 KwarK wrote: There are considered to be problems with occupying a neighboring state, putting all their people into reeducation and work camps, establishing a secret police, and brutally repressing any opposition. That’s probably why they haven’t done it. It’s probably why they still won’t. Bordering a failed state that hates you isn’t ideal but it’s a lot less work than having to run that failed state.
On October 10 2023 13:24 Sermokala wrote: People havn't looked at what america has tried to do in iraq and Afghanistan and said "Yeah that was a good idea I should try that.". There is no one that will come out to nation state build in Palestine. There is no one that will offer the hundreds of thousands of troops to a UN peacekeepning effort. Palestine is like hati, no one wants to solve the issue and no one is sure of if they want the solutions available to them.
Yes, building a nation state is hard any time. However, there are differences.
1a) America in Afghanistan was trying to nation build on the other side of the globe in a country we didn't give a shit about. We just wanted Al Qaeda destroyed. 1b) Israel in Gaza would be consuming a neighboring territory. Many countries in history have taken over neighboring territories with mixed levels of success. Israel's safety depends on a peaceful Gaza, so they have incentive to care long term.
2a) America did not have patience in Afghanistan, again stemming from not actually caring. Our 20 years in Afghanistan is barely 1 generation. If we could have held on for more like 50 years, I think it would have been a success despite huge hurdles. Raise generations in the western way while letting the old way die out. Instead, in 20 years we got a part of a generation that was starting to learn the western ways and then their support dried up. The Taliban came out of hiding and was ready to fight while we didn't prepare the new generation to fight on their own. 2b) Israel would have an incentive to stay long term, actually permanently by adding Gaza to Israel. What happens in Gaza very directly effects Israel and can't simply be ignored like most Americans ignore Haiti.
3a) America tried to give everyone rights. We decided that all Iraq and Afghanistan needed was elections and that freedom would totally fix things. So we went in and took out the old totalitarian regime and somehow expected things to magically be better. 3b) I'm not suggesting that for Israel at all. The last time Gaza had elections, they voted for Hamas. I don't expect the next vote to be any better. No self rule, no votes. Not a lot of freedom. However, more economic prosperity and better living conditions. Put in place a long term plan towards Palestinian citizenship in Israel, which is where they'd get real rights.
It would take a massive amount of work. Israel is currently calling up 300,000 reservists. That would be a force large enough to start the plan. However, they won't be able to sustain 300,000+ troops for over a decade though. They'd need to very quickly vet Palestinians to help enforce the new way of life.
I agree that nobody wants to do it, but if you want an actual solution for the Israel-Palestine conflict that doesn't involve genocide, there it is.
I really don't see it happening though. As Kwark says, it's a lot less work to border a failed state than to try to run it. I predict Israel will create a path of rubble and dead bodies in the quest to destroy Hamas. Then it's back to the status quo as the Palestinians are left to determine who's next in charge of the Gaza prison.
Which "western ways" do we teach them first, how to round up children to put them in reeducation camps or setting up Big Brother and the secret police to arrest all the troublemakers for their wrongthink?
We have let everything happen so far, it's not like the optics change drastically between thousand dead or tenthousand dead in Palestine. As long as they do not plan to go from house to house, the suffering to us will look the same. And I really hope that this is not the plan.
On October 09 2023 08:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: I mean. Israel has been absolutely shitting on palestinians and their most basic rights without even discussing the peace process for the last couple of decades. The palestinian question hasn’t even been on the political radar in the last few elections because israeli felt safe since they built their wall. Meanwhile, they have kept colonizing more and more land, and electing far right, pro-colony governments.
I think there is a point where oppressed people will do anything, and I mean, anything, to fight for their rights. The Hamas is despicable, that war is atrocious, but I blame Israel 175% for what’s happening. What have they been thinking for 20 years? That they can keep stealing land and absolutely shitting on a whole people forever because they have a wall and a lot of technology?
By the way. The US and Europe are totally guilty too. Because our governments really coukd have done something if they weren’t terrified of the pro israel lobbies. Israel should have been a pariah state long ago, but go count of a right filled with anti muslim racism and a left too busy not to alienate their jewish electors not to ever do anything about the actions of the Israeli.
Palestinians aren't interested in the peace process and the biggest oppressors in Palestinian territories are the Palestinian authorities themselves. Hamas and the PA restrict freedom of expression, association, and assembly, use force to crackdown on peaceful protests, subordinated the judiciary, arbitrarily detain their own citizens, torture them, do not allow any opposition or elections, and disregard any minority rights. Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields. It's pretty damning that Israel treats its Arabs citizens better than the PA treats their citizens. If the Palestinian leadership had invested only half as much effort into making the lives of their citizens better instead of oppressing them they'd be in a much better place and get much more support.
Damn that's crazy, imagine if Israel was more or less doing the exact same thing to Palestinians but on top of that they were also ethnically cleansing them and progressively stealing their land, then some people might think that's even worse. Maybe in those circumstances that I've just imagined we would see a lot of protests in the West from palestinian refugees, and all of them would be about being freed not from Hamas but from Israeli occupation?
I understand that talking points are easy to come by but seriously in this instance you shouldn't need my contribution. All it takes to perceive that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is worse is the understanding that Palestinians are people. Which, granted, is not a belief that we often encounter in our media spheres.
Except they don't do all of those things although as I said in my previous post they do engage in serious human rights abuses. Not to mention that the last time Israel unilaterally retreated from Palestinian territory and left settlements it turned Gaza into what it is now. A hotbed for terrorism led by a terroristic organisation. Palestinians governing organisations play a large role in the current situation, the large amount of deaths on their own side, and the oppression of Palestinian civilians. And indeed Israel shares part of the responsibility but to say they 100% had this coming is false.
"freedom of expression, association, and assembly" Probably the weakest part, although I wouldn't mind arguing that containing 2 million people in Gaza covers that. I think I also remember that you can be sued in Israel for expressing support of a boycott of West Bank settlements. I don't think I would feel very safe, as a Palestinian, expressing a pro-palestinian position in most places in Israel in the current year.
"do not allow any opposition or elections disregard any minority rights" Israel doesn't recognize them as a state and routinely disregards the human rights of Palestinians, that doesn't even sound equal that sounds worse.
"Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields." In order for using a civilian as human shield to be disregarding their life, you need someone to be willing to shoot at that human shield.
A reminder that on top of that there is ALSO the ethnic cleansing and progressively taking their land and homes away.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
Half of those things don't apply because responsibility has been transferred to the Palestinian Authorities after the Oslo and subsequent Accords. Israel does not treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza because they're not. Arabs with Israeli citizenship (of which many are Palestinian) do have the same legal rights (though still suffer discrimination). There are Israeli Arab parties in the Knesset, some were on the Supreme Court, and the joint list joined the previous government. I find your attempt to defend human shields bizarre. Israel warns civilians before they bomb the target and it's not really all that difficult to stop hiding weapons in schools and hospitals. There's a reason it's considered a war crime for the one using human shields. As for the ethnic cleansing this mostly happened around the founding of Israel and they were both a perpetrator and victim.
That is not to say that Israel has clean hands. As I said they share responsibility for the current situation. There's really no defense of forcefully evicting people from their lands, the settlements are illegal and problematic, arbitrary detention of Palestinians is inexcusable, and I'm sure there's more. But the point I was trying to make is that no the blame is not 100% on Israel and a large part, and in my opinion the majority, of the oppression comes from the Palestinian authorities themselves. The ones that are supposed to protect them.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know. There's no free press, and any dissent or demonstration is suppressed often violently. Additionally, Palestinian kids are taught to hate Jews and Israel since they're kids in their schools. There's a reason we consider things like a free press fundamental to a democratic society. It's vital to make informed decisions. And no I am not shifting the blame. I've explicitly called out the human rights abuses from Israel in the last two posts and said that they share responsibility.
On October 09 2023 08:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: I mean. Israel has been absolutely shitting on palestinians and their most basic rights without even discussing the peace process for the last couple of decades. The palestinian question hasn’t even been on the political radar in the last few elections because israeli felt safe since they built their wall. Meanwhile, they have kept colonizing more and more land, and electing far right, pro-colony governments.
I think there is a point where oppressed people will do anything, and I mean, anything, to fight for their rights. The Hamas is despicable, that war is atrocious, but I blame Israel 175% for what’s happening. What have they been thinking for 20 years? That they can keep stealing land and absolutely shitting on a whole people forever because they have a wall and a lot of technology?
By the way. The US and Europe are totally guilty too. Because our governments really coukd have done something if they weren’t terrified of the pro israel lobbies. Israel should have been a pariah state long ago, but go count of a right filled with anti muslim racism and a left too busy not to alienate their jewish electors not to ever do anything about the actions of the Israeli.
Palestinians aren't interested in the peace process and the biggest oppressors in Palestinian territories are the Palestinian authorities themselves. Hamas and the PA restrict freedom of expression, association, and assembly, use force to crackdown on peaceful protests, subordinated the judiciary, arbitrarily detain their own citizens, torture them, do not allow any opposition or elections, and disregard any minority rights. Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields. It's pretty damning that Israel treats its Arabs citizens better than the PA treats their citizens. If the Palestinian leadership had invested only half as much effort into making the lives of their citizens better instead of oppressing them they'd be in a much better place and get much more support.
Damn that's crazy, imagine if Israel was more or less doing the exact same thing to Palestinians but on top of that they were also ethnically cleansing them and progressively stealing their land, then some people might think that's even worse. Maybe in those circumstances that I've just imagined we would see a lot of protests in the West from palestinian refugees, and all of them would be about being freed not from Hamas but from Israeli occupation?
I understand that talking points are easy to come by but seriously in this instance you shouldn't need my contribution. All it takes to perceive that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is worse is the understanding that Palestinians are people. Which, granted, is not a belief that we often encounter in our media spheres.
Except they don't do all of those things although as I said in my previous post they do engage in serious human rights abuses. Not to mention that the last time Israel unilaterally retreated from Palestinian territory and left settlements it turned Gaza into what it is now. A hotbed for terrorism led by a terroristic organisation. Palestinians governing organisations play a large role in the current situation, the large amount of deaths on their own side, and the oppression of Palestinian civilians. And indeed Israel shares part of the responsibility but to say they 100% had this coming is false.
"freedom of expression, association, and assembly" Probably the weakest part, although I wouldn't mind arguing that containing 2 million people in Gaza covers that. I think I also remember that you can be sued in Israel for expressing support of a boycott of West Bank settlements. I don't think I would feel very safe, as a Palestinian, expressing a pro-palestinian position in most places in Israel in the current year.
"do not allow any opposition or elections disregard any minority rights" Israel doesn't recognize them as a state and routinely disregards the human rights of Palestinians, that doesn't even sound equal that sounds worse.
"Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields." In order for using a civilian as human shield to be disregarding their life, you need someone to be willing to shoot at that human shield.
A reminder that on top of that there is ALSO the ethnic cleansing and progressively taking their land and homes away.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
Half of those things don't apply because responsibility has been transferred to the Palestinian Authorities after the Oslo and subsequent Accords. Israel does not treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza because they're not. Arabs with Israeli citizenship (of which many are Palestinian) do have the same legal rights (though still suffer discrimination). There are Israeli Arab parties in the Knesset, some were on the Supreme Court, and the joint list joined the previous government. I find your attempt to defend human shields bizarre. Israel warns civilians before they bomb the target and it's not really all that difficult to stop hiding weapons in schools and hospitals. There's a reason it's considered a war crime for the one using human shields. As for the ethnic cleansing this mostly happened around the founding of Israel and they were both a perpetrator and victim.
That is not to say that Israel has clean hands. As I said they share responsibility for the current situation. There's really no defense of forcefully evicting people from their lands, the settlements are illegal and problematic, arbitrary detention of Palestinians is inexcusable, and I'm sure there's more. But the point I was trying to make is that no the blame is not 100% on Israel and a large part, and in my opinion the majority, of the oppression comes from the Palestinian authorities themselves. The ones that are supposed to protect them.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know. There's no free press, and any dissent or demonstration is suppressed often violently. Additionally, Palestinian kids are taught to hate Jews and Israel since they're kids in their schools. There's a reason we consider things like a free press fundamental to a democratic society. It's vital to make informed decisions. And no I am not shifting the blame. I've explicitly called out the human rights abuses from Israel in the last two posts and said that they share responsibility.
While this is already a much less objectionable post, there are still things to push back on. The topic of discussion here was whether Israel or Hamas is a worse oppressor of Palestinians, and as such whatever happens to Arab Israeli citizens is not really relevant. They're not the group that is targeted - although if the fascists achieve their end goal one day and all Palestinians are dead you better believe that they will be. It's also for sure better to be gay in Israel than in Palestine for example, but again the gay Palestinian that died from an airstrike today probably wasn't thinking "I'm so glad I wasn't targeted because of my sexual orientation!"
"It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know"... No, no we do know how the overwhelming majority of them feel. It's fairly clear. Let's at the very least say that there is much more evidence to reach that conclusion than to reach the conclusion that the Palestinian authority has the majority of the blame when it comes to the current condition of Palestinians, an opinion that you reached nonetheless.
In terms of responsibility for the current situation, I'm doing the same thing I usually do which is just an analysis of systems and hierarchies. Who has more power in the current situation, Israel does. What is that power directed toward, ethnic cleansing and land dispossession. Can these goals lead to a situation where justice prevails, no. In terms of social hierarchies explicitly designed for one group to crush another group, it's really one of the most blatant out there.
But how people feel is not the best way to see who's right, is it? Say, when conservatives feel that liberals are to blame for everything, do we take it as a truth? They really-really feel this, doesn't make it any more reasonable, does it?
If I'll teach my children there's a group of people who oppresses them, they might grow up strongly feeling this way and blaming this group for everything because that's 1) convenient and 2) what they were told all the time. Does this make it true though?
I'm not taking sides here, just saying that people often feel a lot of unjustified crap and it's not a basis for justice.
On October 10 2023 18:17 ZeroByte13 wrote: But how people feel is not the best way to see who's right, is it? Say, when conservatives feel that liberals are to blame for everything, do we take it as a truth? They really-really feel this, doesn't make it any more reasonable, does it?
If I'll teach my children there's a group of people who oppresses them, they might grow up strongly feeling this way and blaming this group for everything because that's 1) convenient and 2) what they were told all the time. Does this make it true though?
I deadass don't even know how to respond.
Yes, you're right, it's possible to feel something and be wrong, and it's also possible to teach kids something about reality that is mistaken.
Do you reckon that's what's happening here?
On October 10 2023 18:17 ZeroByte13 wrote: I'm not taking sides here, just saying that people often feel a lot of unjustified crap and it's not a basis for justice.
In my opinion you should take a side in this particular instance. It's not very difficult to tell whether these things are propaganda taught to children or whether they're happening in material reality.
On October 09 2023 08:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: I mean. Israel has been absolutely shitting on palestinians and their most basic rights without even discussing the peace process for the last couple of decades. The palestinian question hasn’t even been on the political radar in the last few elections because israeli felt safe since they built their wall. Meanwhile, they have kept colonizing more and more land, and electing far right, pro-colony governments.
I think there is a point where oppressed people will do anything, and I mean, anything, to fight for their rights. The Hamas is despicable, that war is atrocious, but I blame Israel 175% for what’s happening. What have they been thinking for 20 years? That they can keep stealing land and absolutely shitting on a whole people forever because they have a wall and a lot of technology?
By the way. The US and Europe are totally guilty too. Because our governments really coukd have done something if they weren’t terrified of the pro israel lobbies. Israel should have been a pariah state long ago, but go count of a right filled with anti muslim racism and a left too busy not to alienate their jewish electors not to ever do anything about the actions of the Israeli.
Palestinians aren't interested in the peace process and the biggest oppressors in Palestinian territories are the Palestinian authorities themselves. Hamas and the PA restrict freedom of expression, association, and assembly, use force to crackdown on peaceful protests, subordinated the judiciary, arbitrarily detain their own citizens, torture them, do not allow any opposition or elections, and disregard any minority rights. Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields. It's pretty damning that Israel treats its Arabs citizens better than the PA treats their citizens. If the Palestinian leadership had invested only half as much effort into making the lives of their citizens better instead of oppressing them they'd be in a much better place and get much more support.
Damn that's crazy, imagine if Israel was more or less doing the exact same thing to Palestinians but on top of that they were also ethnically cleansing them and progressively stealing their land, then some people might think that's even worse. Maybe in those circumstances that I've just imagined we would see a lot of protests in the West from palestinian refugees, and all of them would be about being freed not from Hamas but from Israeli occupation?
I understand that talking points are easy to come by but seriously in this instance you shouldn't need my contribution. All it takes to perceive that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is worse is the understanding that Palestinians are people. Which, granted, is not a belief that we often encounter in our media spheres.
Except they don't do all of those things although as I said in my previous post they do engage in serious human rights abuses. Not to mention that the last time Israel unilaterally retreated from Palestinian territory and left settlements it turned Gaza into what it is now. A hotbed for terrorism led by a terroristic organisation. Palestinians governing organisations play a large role in the current situation, the large amount of deaths on their own side, and the oppression of Palestinian civilians. And indeed Israel shares part of the responsibility but to say they 100% had this coming is false.
"freedom of expression, association, and assembly" Probably the weakest part, although I wouldn't mind arguing that containing 2 million people in Gaza covers that. I think I also remember that you can be sued in Israel for expressing support of a boycott of West Bank settlements. I don't think I would feel very safe, as a Palestinian, expressing a pro-palestinian position in most places in Israel in the current year.
"do not allow any opposition or elections disregard any minority rights" Israel doesn't recognize them as a state and routinely disregards the human rights of Palestinians, that doesn't even sound equal that sounds worse.
"Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields." In order for using a civilian as human shield to be disregarding their life, you need someone to be willing to shoot at that human shield.
A reminder that on top of that there is ALSO the ethnic cleansing and progressively taking their land and homes away.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
Half of those things don't apply because responsibility has been transferred to the Palestinian Authorities after the Oslo and subsequent Accords. Israel does not treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza because they're not. Arabs with Israeli citizenship (of which many are Palestinian) do have the same legal rights (though still suffer discrimination). There are Israeli Arab parties in the Knesset, some were on the Supreme Court, and the joint list joined the previous government. I find your attempt to defend human shields bizarre. Israel warns civilians before they bomb the target and it's not really all that difficult to stop hiding weapons in schools and hospitals. There's a reason it's considered a war crime for the one using human shields. As for the ethnic cleansing this mostly happened around the founding of Israel and they were both a perpetrator and victim.
That is not to say that Israel has clean hands. As I said they share responsibility for the current situation. There's really no defense of forcefully evicting people from their lands, the settlements are illegal and problematic, arbitrary detention of Palestinians is inexcusable, and I'm sure there's more. But the point I was trying to make is that no the blame is not 100% on Israel and a large part, and in my opinion the majority, of the oppression comes from the Palestinian authorities themselves. The ones that are supposed to protect them.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know. There's no free press, and any dissent or demonstration is suppressed often violently. Additionally, Palestinian kids are taught to hate Jews and Israel since they're kids in their schools. There's a reason we consider things like a free press fundamental to a democratic society. It's vital to make informed decisions. And no I am not shifting the blame. I've explicitly called out the human rights abuses from Israel in the last two posts and said that they share responsibility.
While this is already a much less objectionable post, there are still things to push back on. The topic of discussion here was whether Israel or Hamas is a worse oppressor of Palestinians, and as such whatever happens to Arab Israeli citizens is not really relevant. They're not the group that is targeted - although if the fascists achieve their end goal one day and all Palestinians are dead you better believe that they will be. It's also for sure better to be gay in Israel than in Palestine for example, but again the gay Palestinian that died from an airstrike today probably wasn't thinking "I'm so glad I wasn't targeted because of my sexual orientation!"
"It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know"... No, no we do know how the overwhelming majority of them feel. It's fairly clear. Let's at the very least say that there is much more evidence to reach that conclusion than to reach the conclusion that the Palestinian authority has the majority of the blame when it comes to the current condition of Palestinians, an opinion that you reached nonetheless.
In terms of responsibility for the current situation, I'm doing the same thing I usually do which is just an analysis of systems and hierarchies. Who has more power in the current situation, Israel does. What is that power directed toward, ethnic cleansing and land dispossession. Can these goals lead to a situation where justice prevails, no. In terms of social hierarchies explicitly designed for one group to crush another group, it's really one of the most blatant out there.
Your premise just isn't very interesting. Who has more culpability in the current shitshow in which Palestinian civilians have basically no rights? Who cares? I'm with Mohdoo here. If we go back 5-10 years, it's clearly Hamas who have imposed a state of terror on Gaza, causing not just Israel, but Egypt too, to hermetically seal the border. If we go back 10-15 years, it's Israel who built a wall and said: your land, your problem to a million desperate Palestinians trapped in a small strip of worthless desert land. We go back 20-30 years? Well, Palestinians made it abundantly clear a 1-state solution wasn't going to work, and a two-state solution became doctrine, and the Palestinian Authorities being set up in the Oslo Accords to govern the Palestinian areas. Of course, the Palestinian Authorities were undermined from the very start by both Israel and Hamas and any attempt at secular democratic elections were torpedoed from both sides. Etc. etc: we can shift the blame around endlessly and not solve anything. It's a pointless exercise in futility.
And as Mohdoo asks (and answers to proper tradition with a new take on Mohdoo island), how can we fix it? Well, that's a more interesting question. Clearly RenSC2 thinks that imposing a police state on an occupied nation for at least 1 generation, and indoctrinating them to accept the new authorities, is the preferred solution. Amazingly, compared to Mohdoo's solution that is only the second-worst suggestion in the thread so far, and as such ranks up there with the best ones. The only even semi-viable solution that doesn't involve ethnic cleansing seems to me to be a two-state solution in which Israel retreats completely from the West Bank, and there is a land corridor between Gaza and West Bank with a complicated two-way border in the middle to ensure there is both free passage between the Negev desert and the rest of Israel, and between Gaza and the West Bank, henceforth Palestina. Palestina is recognized as a nation-state by the UN and can have actual diplomatic relations of its own. Israel is disarmed to a great extent and Palestina is not allowed to arm themselves. Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt commit to the borders and a large UN peacekeeping force mans them, preferrably under a joint Western, Saudi and Chinese leadership. Jerusalem becomes an independent city-state and the new seat of the United Nations (or something similarly over-the-top). All of this is somehow achieved despite Iran.
For any of this to happen, however, first the current shitshow has to resolve itself, Hamas and the radical right of Israel need to be defanged, and people who actually want to deescalate need to come to power. Maybe this current war is what is needed for people to want to try to give peace a chance again. The Israeli right has obviously and publicly failed at keeping Israel safe. Hamas is about to reap the rewards of its show of force. I don't know how terrible Israel's response is going to be. No doubt tens of thousands of Palestinians will die while the IDF attempt to eradicate all of Hamas. If they actually succeed, and Gaza has actual elections and there is a small window in time between Hamas and whatever forms out of its ashes that both Israel and Palestine want peace, perhaps it can work. Otherwise, well, Gaza gets locked up again and in 10-20 years the whole thing repeats itself. Probably with even more dead.
Your first paragraph is literally my point. Trying to find who is morally responsible for the situation is pointless, and you can easily shift back and forth, just like you did. That's why instead of doing that I prefer we look at systems and hierarchies, where, again, it's very clear and simple what's happening.
How do we fix it, well, we don't, cause in order to fix it Israel would have to back off. Israel is supported by the most important powers and Israel is run by people who want a palestinian genocide, they aren't going to back off. Even in the non-existent scenario where Israel has backed off, what KwarK said earlier becomes relevant: the Palestinians will have a claim to take all of their land back, and the Israelis who are born there will also have a claim to live there, so you would end up with two competing claims of similar value that can't be both satisfied. The conflict is probably going to end in like 40 years when climate change puts that land under the sea or something.
On October 10 2023 18:32 Nebuchad wrote: Your first paragraph is literally my point. Trying to find who is morally responsible for the situation is pointless, and you can easily shift back and forth, just like you did. That's why instead of doing that I prefer we look at systems and hierarchies, where, again, it's very clear and simple what's happening.
How do we fix it, well, we don't, cause in order to fix it Israel would have to back off. Israel is supported by the most important powers and Israel is run by people who want a palestinian genocide, they aren't going to back off. The conflict is probably going to end in like 40 years when climate change puts that land under the sea or something.
Are you suggesting that Hamas would not drive the Israelis into the sea if given the opportunity to?
On October 10 2023 18:32 Nebuchad wrote: Your first paragraph is literally my point. Trying to find who is morally responsible for the situation is pointless, and you can easily shift back and forth, just like you did. That's why instead of doing that I prefer we look at systems and hierarchies, where, again, it's very clear and simple what's happening.
How do we fix it, well, we don't, cause in order to fix it Israel would have to back off. Israel is supported by the most important powers and Israel is run by people who want a palestinian genocide, they aren't going to back off. The conflict is probably going to end in like 40 years when climate change puts that land under the sea or something.
Are you suggesting that Hamas would not drive the Israelis into the sea if given the opportunity to?
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
Nobody really planned it. A bunch of people tried to stop it. There was a whole war over it. Then another. And a third.
To be honest, a lot of problems in the middle-east stem from the creation of all those artificial countries. Typically countries have borders along natural obstacles like rivers, mountains etc. If you look at the map of the region there are a lot of straight lines for borders there. This is a big part of why there are so many conflicts there, someone decided on arbitrary borders and you now have people from tribes that have been warring for centuries stuck in the same country or some people being split across two different countries all of a sudden. Couple this with authoritarian tendencies of both the old families that want to be feudal kings and religious zealots who also want a dictatorship and you have a big problem.
Slavery, genocide and other atrocities are common there.
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
Nobody really planned it. A bunch of people tried to stop it. There was a whole war over it. Then another. And a third.
To be honest, a lot of problems in the middle-east stem from the creation of all those artificial countries. Typically countries have borders along natural obstacles like rivers, mountains etc. If you look at the map of the region there are a lot of straight lines for borders there. This is a big part of why there are so many conflicts there, someone decided on arbitrary borders and you now have people from tribes that have been warring for centuries stuck in the same country or some people being split across two different countries all of a sudden. Couple this with authoritarian tendencies of both the old families that want to be feudal kings and religious zealots who also want a dictatorship and you have a big problem.
Slavery, genocide and other atrocities are common there.
I would actually love to see a study on 'relationship between how jagged/straight lined the borders of a country is' and 'how likely is this country to have been involved in wars/civil wars post ww2'.
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
Nobody really planned it. A bunch of people tried to stop it. There was a whole war over it. Then another. And a third.
To be honest, a lot of problems in the middle-east stem from the creation of all those artificial countries. Typically countries have borders along natural obstacles like rivers, mountains etc. If you look at the map of the region there are a lot of straight lines for borders there. This is a big part of why there are so many conflicts there, someone decided on arbitrary borders and you now have people from tribes that have been warring for centuries stuck in the same country or some people being split across two different countries all of a sudden. Couple this with authoritarian tendencies of both the old families that want to be feudal kings and religious zealots who also want a dictatorship and you have a big problem.
Slavery, genocide and other atrocities are common there.
I would actually love to see a study on 'relationship between how jagged/straight lined the borders of a country is' and 'how likely is this country to have been involved in wars/civil wars post ww2'.
Also great post Acro
Borders that are straight lines on maps are much more of a symptom than a cause though. The local and/or regional instability that existed in or near a lot of the countries that we think of when we say 'mountain borders good straight line borders bad' was there before those countries gained independence. Of course if we want to go back and analyse the way colonial powers started governing their territories in the 17th/18th centuries we could maybe draw up some conclusions, but then still the ways of governing varied so much that the outcomes of such analysis wouldn't give too much useful information for today's problems.
The Korean war, the Vietnam war and the multiple conflicts in Afghanistan are some of the biggest post-WW2 conflicts, all of those countries had fairly historical borders before those conflicts started.
It's kinda funny in a disgustingly morbid and appalling way, how every decade or so in the so called holy land atrocities are commited (by either side of the conflict) in the name of some guy in the sky who doesn't even exist. Disgusting morbid and appaling, is also probably the best way to describe our species. The Middle East is the prime example why religion and humans are the fucking worst. Anyway, I'm having a great day as you can probably tell, gonna take a nap now, even though I just woke up.
On October 10 2023 13:31 [Phantom] wrote: I really condem and despise Israel for the inhuman treatment of Palestinians, their displacement and murders. I really condem and despise Hamas for being radical terrorist pieces of shits wihout a single reediming quality.
And I condem and despise the idiots who thought it would be a good idea to create a new country and give it to the jews for no reason at all. Yeah yeah Jews suffered during ww2, big deal, everyone did, how do they deserve a country? If anything at least put them in a country that was taken over during ww2
Nobody really planned it. A bunch of people tried to stop it. There was a whole war over it. Then another. And a third.
To be honest, a lot of problems in the middle-east stem from the creation of all those artificial countries. Typically countries have borders along natural obstacles like rivers, mountains etc. If you look at the map of the region there are a lot of straight lines for borders there. This is a big part of why there are so many conflicts there, someone decided on arbitrary borders and you now have people from tribes that have been warring for centuries stuck in the same country or some people being split across two different countries all of a sudden. Couple this with authoritarian tendencies of both the old families that want to be feudal kings and religious zealots who also want a dictatorship and you have a big problem.
Slavery, genocide and other atrocities are common there.
I would actually love to see a study on 'relationship between how jagged/straight lined the borders of a country is' and 'how likely is this country to have been involved in wars/civil wars post ww2'.
Also great post Acro
Not sure if related but if you look at the list of conflicts post-ww2 the majority of them happened in the middle-east and Africa. That's where you have the most "straight borders." Might be coincidence. Or it's just a combination of things, artificial borders coupled with outdated modes of governance, authoritarian tendencies, poor education etc. It might just be that countries with those arbitrary borders quite often share those traits.
Its mostly because when "we" drew the lines, we did not consider clans and factions and all that. Surprisingly when you group a bunch of group of people who hate each others and give the majority to one particular group, the rest is getting oppressed. Who couldve known? But decolonization was the greatest priority post ww2
On October 09 2023 08:27 Biff The Understudy wrote: I mean. Israel has been absolutely shitting on palestinians and their most basic rights without even discussing the peace process for the last couple of decades. The palestinian question hasn’t even been on the political radar in the last few elections because israeli felt safe since they built their wall. Meanwhile, they have kept colonizing more and more land, and electing far right, pro-colony governments.
I think there is a point where oppressed people will do anything, and I mean, anything, to fight for their rights. The Hamas is despicable, that war is atrocious, but I blame Israel 175% for what’s happening. What have they been thinking for 20 years? That they can keep stealing land and absolutely shitting on a whole people forever because they have a wall and a lot of technology?
By the way. The US and Europe are totally guilty too. Because our governments really coukd have done something if they weren’t terrified of the pro israel lobbies. Israel should have been a pariah state long ago, but go count of a right filled with anti muslim racism and a left too busy not to alienate their jewish electors not to ever do anything about the actions of the Israeli.
Palestinians aren't interested in the peace process and the biggest oppressors in Palestinian territories are the Palestinian authorities themselves. Hamas and the PA restrict freedom of expression, association, and assembly, use force to crackdown on peaceful protests, subordinated the judiciary, arbitrarily detain their own citizens, torture them, do not allow any opposition or elections, and disregard any minority rights. Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields. It's pretty damning that Israel treats its Arabs citizens better than the PA treats their citizens. If the Palestinian leadership had invested only half as much effort into making the lives of their citizens better instead of oppressing them they'd be in a much better place and get much more support.
Damn that's crazy, imagine if Israel was more or less doing the exact same thing to Palestinians but on top of that they were also ethnically cleansing them and progressively stealing their land, then some people might think that's even worse. Maybe in those circumstances that I've just imagined we would see a lot of protests in the West from palestinian refugees, and all of them would be about being freed not from Hamas but from Israeli occupation?
I understand that talking points are easy to come by but seriously in this instance you shouldn't need my contribution. All it takes to perceive that what Israel is doing to Palestinians is worse is the understanding that Palestinians are people. Which, granted, is not a belief that we often encounter in our media spheres.
Except they don't do all of those things although as I said in my previous post they do engage in serious human rights abuses. Not to mention that the last time Israel unilaterally retreated from Palestinian territory and left settlements it turned Gaza into what it is now. A hotbed for terrorism led by a terroristic organisation. Palestinians governing organisations play a large role in the current situation, the large amount of deaths on their own side, and the oppression of Palestinian civilians. And indeed Israel shares part of the responsibility but to say they 100% had this coming is false.
"freedom of expression, association, and assembly" Probably the weakest part, although I wouldn't mind arguing that containing 2 million people in Gaza covers that. I think I also remember that you can be sued in Israel for expressing support of a boycott of West Bank settlements. I don't think I would feel very safe, as a Palestinian, expressing a pro-palestinian position in most places in Israel in the current year.
"do not allow any opposition or elections disregard any minority rights" Israel doesn't recognize them as a state and routinely disregards the human rights of Palestinians, that doesn't even sound equal that sounds worse.
"Hamas then also disregards civilian lives by using them as human shields." In order for using a civilian as human shield to be disregarding their life, you need someone to be willing to shoot at that human shield.
A reminder that on top of that there is ALSO the ethnic cleansing and progressively taking their land and homes away.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
Half of those things don't apply because responsibility has been transferred to the Palestinian Authorities after the Oslo and subsequent Accords. Israel does not treat the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza because they're not. Arabs with Israeli citizenship (of which many are Palestinian) do have the same legal rights (though still suffer discrimination). There are Israeli Arab parties in the Knesset, some were on the Supreme Court, and the joint list joined the previous government. I find your attempt to defend human shields bizarre. Israel warns civilians before they bomb the target and it's not really all that difficult to stop hiding weapons in schools and hospitals. There's a reason it's considered a war crime for the one using human shields. As for the ethnic cleansing this mostly happened around the founding of Israel and they were both a perpetrator and victim.
That is not to say that Israel has clean hands. As I said they share responsibility for the current situation. There's really no defense of forcefully evicting people from their lands, the settlements are illegal and problematic, arbitrary detention of Palestinians is inexcusable, and I'm sure there's more. But the point I was trying to make is that no the blame is not 100% on Israel and a large part, and in my opinion the majority, of the oppression comes from the Palestinian authorities themselves. The ones that are supposed to protect them.
Again, this line of questioning can easily be answered by listening to Palestinians. You will not find two sides fighting, ah yes Israel is doing some bad things but also Hamas is the worst, no I disagree I think Israel is the worst, hmm we have a conversation. Palestinians are very clear on where their oppression is coming from, and that you would in spite of that declare them wrong, in a move that appears to be designed to shift part of the blame away from the people who occupy them, is a strategy that I wouldn't feel good resorting to.
It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know. There's no free press, and any dissent or demonstration is suppressed often violently. Additionally, Palestinian kids are taught to hate Jews and Israel since they're kids in their schools. There's a reason we consider things like a free press fundamental to a democratic society. It's vital to make informed decisions. And no I am not shifting the blame. I've explicitly called out the human rights abuses from Israel in the last two posts and said that they share responsibility.
While this is already a much less objectionable post, there are still things to push back on. The topic of discussion here was whether Israel or Hamas is a worse oppressor of Palestinians, and as such whatever happens to Arab Israeli citizens is not really relevant. They're not the group that is targeted - although if the fascists achieve their end goal one day and all Palestinians are dead you better believe that they will be. It's also for sure better to be gay in Israel than in Palestine for example, but again the gay Palestinian that died from an airstrike today probably wasn't thinking "I'm so glad I wasn't targeted because of my sexual orientation!"
"It is likely they consider Israel a worse oppressor but we do not even really know"... No, no we do know how the overwhelming majority of them feel. It's fairly clear. Let's at the very least say that there is much more evidence to reach that conclusion than to reach the conclusion that the Palestinian authority has the majority of the blame when it comes to the current condition of Palestinians, an opinion that you reached nonetheless.
In terms of responsibility for the current situation, I'm doing the same thing I usually do which is just an analysis of systems and hierarchies. Who has more power in the current situation, Israel does. What is that power directed toward, ethnic cleansing and land dispossession. Can these goals lead to a situation where justice prevails, no. In terms of social hierarchies explicitly designed for one group to crush another group, it's really one of the most blatant out there.
Arab Israeli's are relevant for two reasons: 1. Many of them are Palestinians. That they are not oppressed is the point. 2. Some of the oppression of the Palestinians is not in the hands of Israel. E.g. elections for the Palestinian Authority and an independent judiciary. Here I think a comparison of how Israel treats its own citizens, including Israeli Arabs, is useful.
As for what Palestinian think you miss the point. Which is again twofold: 1. There are few ways for Palestinians to express their displeasure, through for example voting or protesting, with the Palestinian authorities. Neither are they willing to test it considering dissenting opinions are suppressed. 2. They've created an information space where the only allowed information is criticism (putting it mildly) of Israel. Meaning it is almost impossible to come to a well-informed conclusion.
As to the rest, we fundamentally disagree. I do not think there is less evidence and I do not subscribe to your view that greater power necessarily means you're more responsible for a situation. But I've said as much as I wanted to say and I doubt I will convince you otherwise, or you me, so I'll leave it at this.
EPT
