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Northern Ireland26227 Posts
On April 06 2024 01:07 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2024 00:00 JimmiC wrote:On April 05 2024 22:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 05 2024 22:03 JimmiC wrote:
And the extra aid entrance, which is somehow being spun as bad. Do you get what's going on here? Its an international, coordinated push to put loads of pressure on Israel from all possible sides in order to get them to stop their awful behaviour. Saying 'well done' for opening new aid routes that should have been opened months ago would be a bit counter productive. I’m not saying you need to cheer Netanyahu for being a great guy, I along with most of the world (and most of Israel at this point) don’t think that. Im saying that everyone here has been saying Israel will do nothing, Biden sucks and won’t make them do anything blah blah. And within 48 hours we already have a new aid crossing (big deal) Israel taking public and full responsibility (pretty big deal) and firing 2 officers (small deal but still something, people don’t want to get fired and sends a message).As too the no difference in Dems vs Reps in the US, the Reps house leader said Israel shouldn’t be talked down too over this only Hamas should be. And as an aside when Russia purposely does this (they are famous for the double tap, where they hit civilians with one missile and that hit the same spot a hour or less later to get as many first responders as possible). Syria does the same or worse. No one takes responsibility or apologizes, those are two evil regimes that actually deserve the hate that Israel gets. And their opponents are not actually the evil monsters that Hamas is. TBH I'm not that interested in Biden. He's good sometimes but terrible on other things as far as I can see, and he's a deeply unpopular man right now just from having been POTUS for a few years. When it comes to 'Israel won't do anything', I don't really see anything that they've done here as particularly good. They've opened a new aid route but let's see how that ends up working out before people get too happy about it. The other 'open' aid routes are pretty much paralysed by Israeli checks. They've taken responsibility, in that they've put all the blame on 5 people while saying 'we are responsible' which is a little bit of an underhanded way to do it. Now that they've told us that this was against their rules of engagement, why don't they let someone independent examine their records of the last 6 months so they can publicly fire anyone else who has broken the RoE in a similar way? I don't think they will, do you?To me, the most significant thing about the aid worker deaths is that the Israeli investigation, despite coming down on the side of individual human error, showed how fucking easy it is for those errors to occur. Can you imagine the scale of civilian death caused by a system that allows for those errors to get through? When it comes to Russia, Syria and Hamas, we probably all agree that the shit they do is terrible. What's the point of a discussion on a forum where everyone just agrees and says 'yeah that's awful'? The only pushback you ever get when a country is getting away with doing terrible shit is with Israel. Make of that what you will.
I’m not a betting man, but I’d sell a kidney, remortgage and throw down big time to take the bet that they will not if there’s any takers.
And it’s a system that kinda worries me. Psychologically I don’t think it’s a gig I could handle, I’m sure I’m not alone in these threads in having a similar feeling.
Life and death is a hell of a power, who’s likely to be drawn and be suitable for that kind of work? Regular folks burning with hate and psychopaths.
This isn’t a particular point against the IDF in this instance, and more a general one. I’m sure there’s at least some attempt to screen folks with bad impulses out, but if you don’t care much about collateral damage, the maladjusted are arguably much better candidates for such work.
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On April 06 2024 01:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 22:55 Manit0u wrote:
USA will deliver over 1k bombs to Israel. Nice addition to over 11k bombs they sent them since this conflict begun. And still they're holding arms for Ukraine hostage... I did think that the US sending Israel artillery shells for their ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians while telling Ukraine they didn't have any to spare was going to rile up more people around here. EDIT: For reference: U.S. to send Israel artillery shells initially destined for Ukraine
That's an article from October 19. People were critical of Israel back then but it was more a "well, Hamas did something horrific, please let Israel not overreact and let's see. I don't think US sending shells to Israel back then was on many peoples' radar.
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Now this should scare Biden. He reportedly threatened Netanyahu with halting of funds if he did not open other avenues of aid into Gaza. Which worked, but this a domestic threat that is much more serious and dire than anything else ever seen before.
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Am I the only one who think there has been remarkably few civilian deaths in this war given that it is a war in an urban area? Are there examples of prolonged urban warfare with less civilian casualties than in this “genocidal campaign”?
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On April 06 2024 15:21 Elroi wrote:
Am I the only one who think there has been remarkably few civilian deaths in this war given that it is a war in an urban area? Are there examples of prolonged urban warfare with less civilian casualties than in this “genocidal campaign”?
From January and I think the rate has decreased since then, but still....
https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfam
Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day which exceeds the daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam said today, as the escalation of hostilities nears its 100th day.
In addition, over 1,200 people were killed in the horrific attacks by Hamas and other armed groups in Israel on 7 October and 330 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since then.
Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East Director, said: “The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.
“It is unimaginable that the international community is watching the deadliest rate of conflict of the 21st century unfold, while continuously blocking calls for a ceasefire.”
15 January 2024 CLARIFICATION: Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).
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The scale of devastation has to be unprecedented given the size of Gaza. Imagine blitzkrieg on the UK except Gaza is a fraction of the size of London. I'm no history buff and I doubt the blitz was very pleasant but I don't think nearly the entire population was turned into homeless refugees like we are seeing here.
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On April 06 2024 16:22 BlackJack wrote:
The scale of devastation has to be unprecedented given the size of Gaza. Imagine blitzkrieg on the UK except Gaza is a fraction of the size of London. I'm no history buff and I doubt the blitz was very pleasant but I don't think nearly the entire population was turned into homeless refugees like we are seeing here.
They weren't, although it was common practice to send children away from cities, separated from their parents. Traumatic for sure, but nothing even close to the intensity of the devastation in Gaza.
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The main reason why so many civilians have died isn't that this war is taking place in Gaza, the main reason is that Netanyahu's mission to destroy Hamas is not in line with his claim of self-defense given that around 95% of the war has taken place entirely in Gaza.
There are several other claims about this war that don't add up, such as Israel's existence being threatened unless Hamas is destroyed.
Until these lies are being addressed, any claims of "inevitable deaths" in Gaza are strictly false.
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On April 06 2024 15:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2024 15:21 Elroi wrote:
Am I the only one who think there has been remarkably few civilian deaths in this war given that it is a war in an urban area? Are there examples of prolonged urban warfare with less civilian casualties than in this “genocidal campaign”? From January and I think the rate has decreased since then, but still.... https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/daily-death-rate-gaza-higher-any-other-major-21st-century-conflict-oxfamShow nested quote +Israel’s military is killing Palestinians at an average rate of 250 people a day which exceeds the daily death toll of any other major conflict of recent years, Oxfam said today, as the escalation of hostilities nears its 100th day.
In addition, over 1,200 people were killed in the horrific attacks by Hamas and other armed groups in Israel on 7 October and 330 Palestinians have been killed in the West Bank since then.
Sally Abi Khalil, Oxfam’s Middle East Director, said: “The scale and atrocities that Israel is visiting upon Gaza are truly shocking. For 100 days the people of Gaza have endured a living hell. Nowhere is safe and the entire population is at risk of famine.
“It is unimaginable that the international community is watching the deadliest rate of conflict of the 21st century unfold, while continuously blocking calls for a ceasefire.”
15 January 2024 CLARIFICATION: Using publicly available data, Oxfam calculated that the number of average deaths per day for Gaza is higher than any recent major armed conflict including Syria (96.5 deaths per day), Sudan (51.6), Iraq (50.8), Ukraine (43.9) Afghanistan (23.8) and Yemen (15.8).
Elroi is asking about urban warfare specifically because the war in Gaza is predominantly that. The wars in Syria or Ukraine have an urban component but also a ton of open field engagements and/or evacuated urban areas. When you compare the war in Gaza with the battle of Aleppo or the battle of Mariupol, the casualties in Gaza don't look extraordinary at all.
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-gaza-bombing-hamas-civilian-casualties-1.7068647
From articles like this you can gather that the levels of destruction are unprecedented. The largest bomb that coalition forces typically used in bombing Islamic State forces in Mosul or in their Syrian urban stronghold of Raqqa were 500-pound Mk-82 bombs. Israel has pounded Gaza with bombs of up to 2,000 pounds.
As for deaths, you have to remember that the death toll is most likely somewhat higher, as there are people who haven't been found. Civilian deaths specifically are also influenced by who you consider a civilian and who you don't, and as we've discussed earlier Israel's definition is very likely to be quite loose, which makes it easier to maintain a smaller gap in ratio between Hamas and civilian deaths.
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How can it be "unprecedented"? Didn't the allied bombings of Dresden kill like 25000 people in two days? and the bombing of Tokyo like 4x as many?
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On April 06 2024 20:05 Elroi wrote:
How can it be "unprecedented"? Didn't the allied bombings of Dresden kill like 25000 people in two days? and the bombing of Tokyo like 4x as many?
My apologies, the article does clear up that it's unprecedented "in recent conflicts", which is a weird way of using the word unprecedented, incidentally.
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On April 06 2024 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-gaza-bombing-hamas-civilian-casualties-1.7068647From articles like this you can gather that the levels of destruction are unprecedented. The largest bomb that coalition forces typically used in bombing Islamic State forces in Mosul or in their Syrian urban stronghold of Raqqa were 500-pound Mk-82 bombs. Israel has pounded Gaza with bombs of up to 2,000 pounds. As for deaths, you have to remember that the death toll is most likely somewhat higher, as there are people who haven't been found. Civilian deaths specifically are also influenced by who you consider a civilian and who you don't, and as we've discussed earlier Israel's definition is very likely to be quite loose, which makes it easier to maintain a smaller gap in ratio between Hamas and civilian deaths.
As far as I can tell, the war in Gaza led to roughly 1.5% of the population getting killed. For Mariupol, it's around 5%, and for Aleppo, something like 10% (although that was stretched over 4-5 years). You also have to keep in mind that, while it can be argued that Israel is being reckless, Hamas is actively using the population as a human shield in a number of different ways.
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On April 06 2024 20:36 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2024 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-gaza-bombing-hamas-civilian-casualties-1.7068647From articles like this you can gather that the levels of destruction are unprecedented. The largest bomb that coalition forces typically used in bombing Islamic State forces in Mosul or in their Syrian urban stronghold of Raqqa were 500-pound Mk-82 bombs. Israel has pounded Gaza with bombs of up to 2,000 pounds. As for deaths, you have to remember that the death toll is most likely somewhat higher, as there are people who haven't been found. Civilian deaths specifically are also influenced by who you consider a civilian and who you don't, and as we've discussed earlier Israel's definition is very likely to be quite loose, which makes it easier to maintain a smaller gap in ratio between Hamas and civilian deaths. As far as I can tell, the war in Gaza led to roughly 1.5% of the population getting killed. For Mariupol, it's around 5%, and for Aleppo, something like 10% (although that was stretched over 4-5 years). You also have to keep in mind that, while it can be argued that Israel is being reckless, Hamas is actively using the population as a human shield in a number of different ways.
You get competing numbers for Mariupol, I have to guess that they made their claim based on a different estimate. And Aleppo is a much different timeframe (ah sry yes you added that I didn't see the edit).
You also have to keep in mind that, while it can be argued that Israel is being reckless, Hamas is actively using the population as a human shield in a number of different ways.
=> No I don't have to keep that in mind.
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On April 06 2024 20:36 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2024 20:00 Nebuchad wrote:https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/israel-gaza-bombing-hamas-civilian-casualties-1.7068647From articles like this you can gather that the levels of destruction are unprecedented. The largest bomb that coalition forces typically used in bombing Islamic State forces in Mosul or in their Syrian urban stronghold of Raqqa were 500-pound Mk-82 bombs. Israel has pounded Gaza with bombs of up to 2,000 pounds. As for deaths, you have to remember that the death toll is most likely somewhat higher, as there are people who haven't been found. Civilian deaths specifically are also influenced by who you consider a civilian and who you don't, and as we've discussed earlier Israel's definition is very likely to be quite loose, which makes it easier to maintain a smaller gap in ratio between Hamas and civilian deaths. As far as I can tell, the war in Gaza led to roughly 1.5% of the population getting killed. For Mariupol, it's around 5%, and for Aleppo, something like 10% (although that was stretched over 4-5 years). You also have to keep in mind that, while it can be argued that Israel is being reckless, Hamas is actively using the population as a human shield in a number of different ways.
I'm not sure Israel can force over a million people including Hamas into a tiny little area fit for about 80,000 and then complain that they can't stop the slaughter because Hamas are using the civilians as human shields
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The argument that more reckless wars/battles have been fought doesn't lead to the conclusion that therefore the war in Gaza isn't being fought recklessly. It'd be like arguing rape isn't so bad if there's only one victim when there could've been two.
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On April 06 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:
The argument that more reckless wars/battles have been fought doesn't lead to the conclusion that therefore the war in Gaza isn't being fought recklessly. It'd be like arguing rape isn't so bad if there's only one victim when there could've been two.
They didn't make this argument though. It is valid that if the war in Gaza isn't more violent than other conflicts then we shouldn't say it is.
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On April 06 2024 21:07 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:
The argument that more reckless wars/battles have been fought doesn't lead to the conclusion that therefore the war in Gaza isn't being fought recklessly. It'd be like arguing rape isn't so bad if there's only one victim when there could've been two. They didn't make this argument though. It is valid that if the war in Gaza isn't more violent than other conflicts then we shouldn't say it is.
Original quote:
"Am I the only one who think there has been remarkably few civilian deaths in this war given that it is a war in an urban area? Are there examples of prolonged urban warfare with less civilian casualties than in this “genocidal campaign”?"
Elroi is arguing that we should expect more deaths rather than fewer.
First of all, the total body count is unknown and certainly higher than the current estimate. Secondly, even the known body count is a consequence of Israel putting greater emphasis on destroying Hamas than protecting people, so we have little reason to suspect they're prioritizing protecting people's lives.
Furthermore Elroi is so impressed by the "low" body count that he can't think of more impressive examples.
He's painting this military offensive as something that could go down in history as a great example of how to go about war in an urban environment with minimization of casualties as a primary goal. That's clearly an argument in favor of the IDF's conduct.
While in reality the body count could realistically only be much higher if they deliberately tried to add more bodies to it.
I don't see how I'm interpreting Elroi's statement incorrectly.
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I'm not comfortable with reading so far into this, it's mostly an argument around numbers so that's where the focus should be in my opinion. I don't have any political positions that are based around which of Putin or Netanyahu is the worst fascist, it doesn't matter a whole lot in my world, but I like to say things that are true as opposed to things that are not true and I would have said that Gaza's destruction was not comparable to other recent conflicts. If that's not the case then that's worth correcting.
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On April 06 2024 21:40 Nebuchad wrote:
I'm not comfortable with reading so far into this, it's mostly an argument around numbers so that's where the focus should be in my opinion. I don't have any political positions that are based around which of Putin or Netanyahu is a worst fascist, it doesn't matter a whole lot in my world, but I like to say things that are true as opposed to things that are not true and I would have said that Gaza's destruction was not comparable to other recent conflicts. If that's not the case then that's worth correcting.
*urban* conflicts.
Its worth mentioning how we are restricting the argument here.
Elroi sarcastically saying 'genocidal campaign' is like he wants us to compare Gaza, where the entire population is contained within an urban environment, to Aleppo (rather than the whole of Syria), where genocide isn't really a thing because most of the population of Syria lives in rural areas.
Its like we are localizing the discussion to urban areas only and then making generalizations about entire ethnic populations that are inappropriate when you do that, except in the case of Gaza.
There's no logical way to square that circle, you have to accept that the population of Gaza being so squeezed in to such a small urban area (Israel's choice btw) is a factor and should be a factor in how Israel prosecutes their slaughter.
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EPT
