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On April 05 2024 07:32 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 07:11 Gorsameth wrote:On April 05 2024 06:28 JimmiC wrote:On April 05 2024 05:54 Gorsameth wrote:On April 05 2024 05:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 05 2024 05:19 Acrofales wrote:On April 05 2024 04:33 JimmiC wrote:Here is Kirby on the arms transfer. "With the exception of the immediate two months after the attack, we haven't really sent emergency aid and military assistance to Israel," White House national security spokesperson John Kirby told reporters on Thursday. "What you're seeing here is the result of a process of foreign military sales to Israel that takes years." Well, withhold those weapons until they behave themselves. They do that all the time to other buyers. That is what they are saying is going to happen if changes are not made. It has been a day and the report is not out, I get we all want it yesterday but that is also not how it works. If the United States does not see changes in Israel’s policies to protect civilians in Gaza, “there’ll be changes in our own policy,” Secretary of State Antony Blinken said Thursday.
The statement, made after a call between President Joe Biden and Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is the clearest statement yet of the administration’s waning patience with the Israeli government amid the massive humanitarian toll.
“This week's horrific attack on the World Central Kitchen was not the first such incident. It must be the last,” Blinken said at a news conference in Brussels.
The secretary of state said he was “outraged” by the deaths of the seven WCK staffers. "I strongly condemn it." And there is this. And it is real and legitimate. Kirby said that it's important to remember that Israel still faces a lot of threats. "I mean, we're all focused on Hamas, and I understand that, but they still face active threats throughout the region, including from Iran, and the United States still has an ironclad commitment to help Israel with its self-defense." If Israel can't stop killing aid workers then Israel does not deserve the US's commitment to its self-defense. wow we totally disagree, I'm completely against collective punishment. Strange that you don't feel the same way about the Palestinians when their leadership is openly pro genocide and murder of children and civilians. Halting weapon shipments is not 'collective punishment'. Israel isn't going to stop existing if the US doesn't send a few billion worth of bombs this month. No one is going to invade because the US is sending a message by temporarily halting shipments, and in the off chance they do there is still carrier group off the coast. A US response is literally minutes away. But temporarily halting shipments does send a strong message to Netanyahu and the Israeli government that this won't be tolerated. And if the US/Biden wants to accomplish anything it needs to send a much stronger message then empty words while the bombs to destroy Gaza, kill civilians and bomb aid conveys keep on flowing. Your asking a family friend to stop shooting their neighbours while handing them a fresh box of shells every week, asking them to stop shooting while they load their gun with your shells and shoot another neighbour right in front of you. And yet you keep bringing them shells. Do you not see the utterly mixed and useless message your sending? First you didn't say "temporary stop shipments" you said does not deserve the commitment. Despite rumors I don't read minds. But glad you are not in the GH camp. Your flawed analogy aside, I'm just not jumping to conclusions and see what they actually do, since everything they are saying makes sense. Your assumption that the words that they say are empty maybe end up being right, it may end up being wrong. I choose to wait and see since there is absolutely no risk in me doing so and things are moving very fast.
Of course there is no risk for you to wait and see. They aren't bombing Canada. They can take as long as they need. As is often the case, I'm sure you'll determine that the correct course of action is whatever one they decide on.
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So Wombat nailed it then (well, that's two officers instead, he said one, boo).
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It's all good now. Two officers violated command and are facing consequences, that's case closed. Those hundred other times don't count as violations because it wasn't American citizens who got killed. Nothing wrong with the IDF. Everyone please pack your pitchforks and go home.
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On April 05 2024 22:03 JimmiC wrote:
And the extra aid entrance, which is somehow being spun as bad.
Do you get what's going on here?
Its an international, coordinated push to put loads of pressure on Israel from all possible sides in order to get them to stop their awful behaviour.
Saying 'well done' for opening new aid routes that should have been opened months ago would be a bit counter productive.
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On April 05 2024 22:03 JimmiC wrote:
And the extra aid entrance, which is somehow being spun as bad. It is being spun as "apparently they could have done this months ago but chose not to". Which considering the speed with which they are managing this sounds very fair.
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On April 05 2024 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:
So Wombat nailed it then (well, that's two officers instead, he said one, boo).
Close but no cigar.
Quite a decent summation of this incident from multiple perspectives
I’m unsure what intermediary steps were missed though, so perhaps this was particularly egregious. It doesn’t sound so on the face of it, bar a mistake being made, and who was killed. Depends, I’m not 100% au fait on procedure so I’ll not stick my neck out in having an opinion with that gap. Especially as to who was responsible for not relating the correspondence between the WCF and the IDF
It just feels an inevitable consequence of having policies that allow you to blow up whatever if you think there’s a Hamas militant in there. You’ll never have any process that eliminates misidentification.
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McDonalds Boycott has been so effective they are buying back all of their Israeli franchises. They have stated they remain committed to the Mid East market (both in and out of Israel)
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On April 05 2024 22:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:
So Wombat nailed it then (well, that's two officers instead, he said one, boo). Close but no cigar. Quite a decent summation of this incident from multiple perspectivesI’m unsure what intermediary steps were missed though, so perhaps this was particularly egregious. It doesn’t sound so on the face of it, bar a mistake being made, and who was killed. Depends, I’m not 100% au fait on procedure so I’ll not stick my neck out in having an opinion with that gap. Especially as to who was responsible for not relating the correspondence between the WCF and the IDF It just feels an inevitable consequence of having policies that allow you to blow up whatever if you think there’s a Hamas militant in there. You’ll never have any process that eliminates misidentification.
My read is that they did exactly what they and others in their unit did thousands of times in the last six months, but because they killed humans this time instead of Palestinians, it now has to be described as a serious violation of the commands.
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USA will deliver over 1k bombs to Israel. Nice addition to over 11k bombs they sent them since this conflict begun. And still they're holding arms for Ukraine hostage...
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On April 05 2024 22:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 22:29 WombaT wrote:On April 05 2024 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:
So Wombat nailed it then (well, that's two officers instead, he said one, boo). Close but no cigar. Quite a decent summation of this incident from multiple perspectivesI’m unsure what intermediary steps were missed though, so perhaps this was particularly egregious. It doesn’t sound so on the face of it, bar a mistake being made, and who was killed. Depends, I’m not 100% au fait on procedure so I’ll not stick my neck out in having an opinion with that gap. Especially as to who was responsible for not relating the correspondence between the WCF and the IDF It just feels an inevitable consequence of having policies that allow you to blow up whatever if you think there’s a Hamas militant in there. You’ll never have any process that eliminates misidentification. My read is that they did exactly what they and others in their unit did thousands of times in the last six months, but because they killed humans this time instead of Palestinians, it now has to be described as a serious violation of the commands.
That's the obvious takeaway from this imo.
They've shot themselves in the foot saying things like 'aid stickers on top of cars can't be seen by drones/operators at night'. Like wtf have you been doing about that for the last 6 months then? Obviously nothing.
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On April 05 2024 22:55 Manit0u wrote:
USA will deliver over 1k bombs to Israel. Nice addition to over 11k bombs they sent them since this conflict begun. And still they're holding arms for Ukraine hostage...
I did think that the US sending Israel artillery shells for their ethnic cleansing campaign against Palestinians while telling Ukraine they didn't have any to spare was going to rile up more people around here.
EDIT: For reference: U.S. to send Israel artillery shells initially destined for Ukraine
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United Kingdom10006 Posts
On April 06 2024 00:00 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 22:20 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 05 2024 22:03 JimmiC wrote:
And the extra aid entrance, which is somehow being spun as bad. Do you get what's going on here? Its an international, coordinated push to put loads of pressure on Israel from all possible sides in order to get them to stop their awful behaviour. Saying 'well done' for opening new aid routes that should have been opened months ago would be a bit counter productive. I’m not saying you need to cheer Netanyahu for being a great guy, I along with most of the world (and most of Israel at this point) don’t think that. Im saying that everyone here has been saying Israel will do nothing, Biden sucks and won’t make them do anything blah blah. And within 48 hours we already have a new aid crossing (big deal) Israel taking public and full responsibility (pretty big deal) and firing 2 officers (small deal but still something, people don’t want to get fired and sends a message).As too the no difference in Dems vs Reps in the US, the Reps house leader said Israel shouldn’t be talked down too over this only Hamas should be. And as an aside when Russia purposely does this (they are famous for the double tap, where they hit civilians with one missile and that hit the same spot a hour or less later to get as many first responders as possible). Syria does the same or worse. No one takes responsibility or apologizes, those are two evil regimes that actually deserve the hate that Israel gets. And their opponents are not actually the evil monsters that Hamas is.
TBH I'm not that interested in Biden. He's good sometimes but terrible on other things as far as I can see, and he's a deeply unpopular man right now just from having been POTUS for a few years.
When it comes to 'Israel won't do anything', I don't really see anything that they've done here as particularly good. They've opened a new aid route but let's see how that ends up working out before people get too happy about it. The other 'open' aid routes are pretty much paralysed by Israeli checks. They've taken responsibility, in that they've put all the blame on 5 people while saying 'we are responsible' which is a little bit of an underhanded way to do it.
Now that they've told us that this was against their rules of engagement, why don't they let someone independent examine their records of the last 6 months so they can publicly fire anyone else who has broken the RoE in a similar way? I don't think they will, do you?
To me, the most significant thing about the aid worker deaths is that the Israeli investigation, despite coming down on the side of individual human error, showed how fucking easy it is for those errors to occur.
Can you imagine the scale of civilian death caused by a system that allows for those errors to get through?
When it comes to Russia, Syria and Hamas, we probably all agree that the shit they do is terrible. What's the point of a discussion on a forum where everyone just agrees and says 'yeah that's awful'?
The only pushback you ever get when a country is getting away with doing terrible shit is with Israel.
Make of that what you will.
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Wild to me that Israel's excuse is basically that "yeah, it was manslaughter", yet they won't be pressing charges. Not even firing everyone they blame, smh...
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Northern Ireland27463 Posts
On April 05 2024 22:42 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2024 22:29 WombaT wrote:On April 05 2024 21:24 Nebuchad wrote:
So Wombat nailed it then (well, that's two officers instead, he said one, boo). Close but no cigar. Quite a decent summation of this incident from multiple perspectivesI’m unsure what intermediary steps were missed though, so perhaps this was particularly egregious. It doesn’t sound so on the face of it, bar a mistake being made, and who was killed. Depends, I’m not 100% au fait on procedure so I’ll not stick my neck out in having an opinion with that gap. Especially as to who was responsible for not relating the correspondence between the WCF and the IDF It just feels an inevitable consequence of having policies that allow you to blow up whatever if you think there’s a Hamas militant in there. You’ll never have any process that eliminates misidentification. My read is that they did exactly what they and others in their unit did thousands of times in the last six months, but because they killed humans this time instead of Palestinians, it now has to be described as a serious violation of the commands.
Not so much your read as well, basic observable reality.
I highly doubt anything will change in how this conflict is conducted and it’s just a matter of time until Israel bomb some other aid group or journalists and we go through this ‘accountability’ farce again.
On the flip side I do feel this particular method of waging war is just unreliable, which does somewhat go both ways. It’s unreliable, it’s prone to human error (or indeed malice) at points in the chain. So in a sense while it’s provably bad in hitting who it’s meant to hit, and avoiding hitting non-combatants, equally I think it’s unreliable across the board. So I don’t, as others do claim think Israel is precision targeting journalists and NGOs who may have hostile views.
Civilians will die, aid workers will die. Nobody has managed to come up with a system that reliably eliminates these possibilities, and by employing these systems one is essentially saying you’re OK with that possibility.
I mean it was that long ago that the US, my own nation and the ‘coalition of the willing’ were pretty routinely bombing weddings and what have you. We’ve pretty damn little moral high ground on this particular topic. Less still given who we sell arms to, the US more directly in this conflict but British arms manufacturers have made bank selling to the Saudis with gear primarily used in the Yemeni conflict.
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EPT
