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On February 22 2024 18:04 Salazarz wrote:
The claim that there are 2000 Hamas members in UNRWA isn't extraordinary, if you consider that nearly half of all charities in Gaza are ran by Hamas, and a huge amount of public services including things like libraries, childcare facilities, sports clubs etc are ran by 'Hamas members', most of them with little or no connection to terrorist activities / recruitment / whatever. It's one of the reasons why Hamas maintains popularity and prominence, since they aren't just hiring folks to blow themselves up in attacks on Israel but also contributing massively to the local communities; and the connection between social & militant wings of Hamas is tenuous at best.
Of course, most people assume every 'member' of Hamas is a violent terrorist and thus the 2000 Hamas in UNRWA is a scary thought, realistically though, we're almost certainly looking at someone helping out at a soup kitchen on weekends being labeled a 'Hamas member' here.
If that is the case, then the term "Hamas operative" without further clarification would be terribly misleading, and intentionally so. Previously I've never seen a distinction made between various Hamas members.
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Considering the IDF classifies teenagers throwing rocks at armored cars as 'terrorists' and authorizes use of deadly force on children throwing stuff (or better yet, running away after having thrown stuff) at the military, I don't see how their labelling anyone as anything is meaningful in the absence of real evidence of whatever wrongdoings the accused have committed.
Like, an 'active Hamas operative' could mean the guy used to appear at rallies with a banner and 'military wing member' could well be a teenager letting a firework fly at a military checkpoint.
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On February 22 2024 22:49 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 22 2024 22:28 Salazarz wrote:
Considering the IDF classifies teenagers throwing rocks at armored cars as 'terrorists' and authorizes use of deadly force on children throwing stuff (or better yet, running away after having thrown stuff) at the military, I don't see how their labelling anyone as anything is meaningful in the absence of real evidence of whatever wrongdoings the accused have committed.
Like, an 'active Hamas operative' could mean the guy used to appear at rallies with a banner and 'military wing member' could well be a teenager letting a firework fly at a military checkpoint. Sure anything could be anything until they release the evidence. They could also be the leaders, or the people doing the raping or murdering, or the tech support.
I agree, they could be anything. So if Israel has real evidence of these 2000 people being terrorists, they should release said evidence and we can then all agree that UNRWA needs to be either dismantled or at the very least massively reorganized. Until then, it's no different from 'there are nazis in Kyiv that must be removed!'
On February 22 2024 22:49 JimmiC wrote:
One of the people they have was organizing the transport and accommodations for the hostages for which they provided video evidence.
So there is one confirmed Hamas militant accomplice. 1999 more to go.
On February 22 2024 22:49 JimmiC wrote:
Not sure what your constant, Israel is evil let’s assume the worst and pretend it’s fact, style of posting is trying to accomplish. I’m just pointing out that there are facts to replace many of your assumptions and so far they have not been close to your assumptions.
I'm not pretending anything. It is a fact that Israel often distorts truth to suit their agenda. It's also a fact that Israel's definition of what constitutes a terrorist or a militant is incredibly broad.
I also don't think Israel is evil. Their government, on the other hand, definitely is, and will continue to be unless somebody starts holding them accountable. It's clear that Israelis aren't willing to hold their government accountable -- and to be fair, it's at least to some extent understandable, given their circumstances; so there needs to be external pressure to force them to change their ways.
I strongly believe that this conflict is going to drag on unless Israel's allies put real pressure for them to tone down on violence and oppression. And beyond Israel-Palestine conflict, I think that any 'rules based order' is impossible unless we can agree on a set of rules that will be applied universally and impartially to all actors worldwide. For countries like China or Iran or Russia or whatever to ever consider 'playing by the rules', we have to make sure that our liberal democracies hold everybody to the same standard, with no special permissions made to our special partners. Until then, Putins and Xi Jinpings of the world will continue pushing the envelope, and easily justifying it to their own people by pointing out the hypocrisies and injustices committed by our side.
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Israeli delegation is headed to Paris for talks.
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On January 22 2024 06:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2024 05:59 stilt wrote:On January 21 2024 06:46 Mohdoo wrote:On January 20 2024 09:56 Razyda wrote:
Oh actually, I am going to try this. Please reply with your thoughts on a path to a 2 state solution with the following assumptions already made:
1: The US supports genocide, ethnic cleansing, colonialism, imperialism, racism, hatred, bigotry, and literally all other bad things
2: ^Same for Israel
3: Israel is 100% illegal and very bad and hateful
4: Palestinians do not possess any guilt because they are only responding to violence inflected upon them
I am curious what your thoughts are AFTER these assumptions are already carved into stone.
I will take you on that in reverse way - will show you there is a way for 2 state solution if even one of those points is false: 1 - if false - US gives Israel Cuba treatment - Israel is not self sufficient state the way US and Russia are, I would be surprised if it took as much as 10 years for them to sit down at negotiation table. 2 and 3 (this are basically same point, unless things mentioned in 1 are considered good and non hateful) + illegal which I consider settlements as such) - if false - Israel stops occupation, withdraws from settlements and stop with provocations. Hamas starts loosing support ( on the bases: if you lost kids, wife, family, friends, due to one country actions, you rather happily join to anyone who declares this country his enemy, If however your family is fine, you have house, job and some prospects for future, then it would take hell of a demagogue to convince you to some bizarre crusade, on which you have nothing to win, but everything to loose) and eventually someone reasonable takes over and some long term solutions can be found. 4 - this one is odd, I dont think anyone here suggested that Palestinians arent guilty of anything, while I would say that a lot of their recent actions is result of oppression rather than violence I would certainly not use the word "only" there. For this one then I'll try to show road to piece if it is true - If there aren't any terrorist actions (or any other which may be considered provocation) coming from Palestine and if domestic situation is stable, then any aggressive action taken by Israel, would tarnish its image (there is a big "if" though, considering that before October 7 this thread had 16 pages) and if news spread, then a lot of people would get mad and politicians want to win elections, eventually international pressure would reach the threshold where some actions would have to be taken which would lead to more actions (actions of governments tend to have self accelerating mechanism, as they generate interest, which generates more actions and so on. vide: Germany on the beginning of Ukraine war) Fact that there doesnt seem to be the way to peace in foreseeable future ⇒ 1, 2 and 3 are true while 4 is false. Before you read this reply, I encourage you to read the post I wrote for you here: https://tl.net/forum/general/573090-things-arent-peaceful-in-palestine?page=179#3562When I posted the history of Pan-Islamism, you asked me to do the same for Zionism. It took me a long time, but I did. In the link above, I also link back to my Pan-Islamism summary. If you are unfamiliar with the history of Pan-Islamism and/or Zionism, it is reasonable for us to disagree. But please keep in mind the facts I reference in both of my summaries are not commentary. They are direct references to events in history. Those facts are important when assessing these critical questions. What you are describing in [1] is just a conscious decision to let Israel suffer under the weight of being surrounded by enemies geographically. You are saying they would negotiate more desperately because of the threat of being wiped out. As I already described, Palestinians are not looking to negotiate right now either. It is inaccurate and dishonest to frame the situation as Israel being the only ones who are not seeking negotiation. What you are describing is just making Israel so desperate that they would accept some sort of consolation prize rather than being wiped out entirely. I already showed why [2]/[3/] is not true in my summaries of both Pan-Islamism and Zionism. I wrote up the summary of Zionism by your request, so I do hope you read it. It took me a long time to read up on everything and make sure I had all the facts right. The idea that Hamas and other hatred towards Israel is a result of Israel's existence/formation/conduct is conclusively shown to be false. In my summaries, I documented the history of antisemitism in the middle east, and a variety of reasons the victim blaming is bogus. Jews were victims all around the middle east throughout the 1800s and early 1900s. The targeting of Jews within middle eastern countries is well-documented and I even summarized it for the participants in this thread to make sure people have all the facts right. Jews had been present in the region in large numbers very recently, the victims of hatred very recently, and all of it came way before partitioning a Jewish state out of Palestine. As for [4], this fits in with the history of pan-islamism. In my summary of pan-islamism, i highlighted founding members of Hamas and where their ideology was derived from. I traced the lineage of that ideology and showed why it came before Israel's formation. Since antisemitism was deeply widespread throughout the middle east, the formation of Israel was viewed by bigots as an atrocity beyond measure, but it wasn't the root-cause for the hatred. So your pov is : 1/ current jews are natives of palestine 2/ palestinian and arabs are antisemetic because of Islam and solely because of it 3/ Israel is a constant victim of its antisemite neighbours 4/ Murica is the great guy who is protecting the oppressed No, that’s not my point of view. I don’t think you read the posts I linked if you came away with that. You’re welcome to point out my inaccuracies in my summaries of Pan-Islamism and Zionism if you would like. Would be happy to learn more. I think I recall previous posts of yours where you did not agree with me. Are there historical inaccuracies in my 2 summaries? It would be interesting to know what the key differences in our understanding of history is that causes us to reach different conclusions.
I am a bit late
But here we go
You point ou zionism exists far before the 19th century, that's wrong and the motive might be to deny the link between european colonialism of the time and zionism.
What you called pre zionism might be a bunch of community coming back but that's far the secular colonial project which took decade to take form and is concomittent of intellectual and political environnement of nationalism and colonialism which marked the 19th century, it's only now they have the material and intellectual means to recreate Israel. So yeah, the root of Israel are the ones of a colonial state. To be fair, we can still find legitimacy in it, after all, 7 millions jews live there since decades and your own nation is built on the genocide of natives and made until the 1950s nice westerns when John Wayne slaughters and bunch of savages. Don't worryw mine is not exempt of crimes either. It's difficult to assess the lives taken by france as a colonial power but a good million is the bar minimum.
Another is the demographic, an exode or even slaughter of 1.6 millions jews is far exagerated. According to the preface of the conquest of gaul, Gaul had around 10 millions of people during the time of caesar who was impressed by their numbers, italy was a demographic power but the million of rome inhabitants was sustainable thanks to egypt importation. What I am saying is that in a aride region like palestine, it's unlikely such a population was sustainable, especially because they weren't only jews. And the fact they rebelled around 350 indicates they were still around but had dissolved or probably became christian.
The elites which was exiled will end up convert people and that's my point, that's not a "peuple", but a religion. Jews from Maghreb are arabic, jews from europe are europeans, jews from ethiopia are ethiopians ext.
Last but no least, the narrative of ineherent muslim antisemitism is dumb. There are very little jews in today Algeria and while Israel toward hostility or even the construction of a nation-state with people from the same religion might have played a role, the main reason is the 1870 decree which gave the french citizenship to all "native jews" from algeria. It essentially put them at the heigh of the colonial society, most of them became pretty rich and privelegied and the colonial power used them to oppress the arabs. When colonization ended, they were basically french and had to part away like every other french. No antisemtism there or maybe there are but that's not because of religion but because they were a oppressive group just like regular french. Opposing group to each others have been the bread and butter of colonial power with disastrous consequences afterward the tutsis genocide in rwanda is the most extreme of them)
I am not well versed in other colonialism but this kind of stuff explain this exode. Plus the fact religious reason and a material confort (israel is richer than post independance countries) committed people to do their alya.
And, the rise of islamism which was encouraged by the west to counter the anti imperialist policies only prevailed after the independance.
So, I won't deny pre Israel or even pre zionism antisemitism in muslim countries, that would be stupid, but that's not necesseraly the major component in the equation of the jewish exode, at least in maghreb it wasn't.
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Again. There really is no more need for further US funding...
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On February 24 2024 08:48 JimmiC wrote:The package is like 80% aid to Gaza and then its rocket air defense stuff. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it.
Which, sadly ironic, Israel is now limiting how many aid trucks can enter Gaza...
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On February 24 2024 09:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2024 08:48 JimmiC wrote:The package is like 80% aid to Gaza and then its rocket air defense stuff. I'm not sure why anyone would be against it. Which, sadly ironic, Israel is now limiting how many aid trucks can enter Gaza... https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1761117379008831960
Making a carnival out of starving children is apocalyptical levels of heinous.
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Netanyahu has released a plan for Gaza after the war.
It's a small step removed from full occupation, and - of course - both rules out the possibility of recognising a Palestinian state any time soon and involves the dissolving of UNRWA. It also does not recognise the PA as having any role in Gaza after the war.
BBC Article
Haaretz article
Some snippets from BBC:
No PA:
Under his plan Israel would control security indefinitely, and Palestinians with no links to groups hostile to Israel would run the territory...
...the short document - which Mr Netanyahu presented to ministers last night - makes no mention of the PA. He has previously ruled out a post-war role for the internationally backed body.
Military control, and de-radicalisation programs:
And "de-radicalisation" programmes would be promoted in all religious, educational and welfare institutions. The document suggests Arab countries with experience of such programmes would be involved, though Mr Netanyahu has not specified which.
Under the plan Israel would also maintain security control over the entire area west of Jordan from land, sea and air.
No state:
Mr Netanyahu repeated his rejection of any unilateral recognition by Western countries of a Palestinian state.
No UNRWA:
Some of Unrwa's biggest donors suspended funding for the agency last month after Unrwa sacked several of its staff amid allegations by Israel that they had participated in the October attacks.
Mr Netanyahu aims to close the agency as part of his post-war plan and replace it with - as yet unspecified - international aid organisations.
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Not a single concession by Israel. Not one.
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Some progress made in the peace talks in Paris.
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On February 24 2024 19:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Not a single concession by Israel. Not one.
Why should there be any?
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Rough framework of the supposed ceasefire. Still no agreement of course.
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Not surprising coming from israeli propagandist
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Northern Ireland27267 Posts
There seems this tendency to parse anything that may put our ‘side’, or something we have some sympathy with into a negative light as outright propaganda.
To a pretty ridiculous degree tbh. This writer should be absolutely criticised/castigated for showing approval to such a heinous expressed sentiment.
On the flip side I mean, Hamas themselves were pretty eager coming forward to document their own atrocious behaviour in this domain in glorious technicolour, it’s myopic in the extreme to try and seize upon 1 journalist’s clear bias to handwave away something that evidently happened.
I mean I don’t think I’ve yet been charged with a particular pro-Israeli stance but it’s just such an obvious attempt to pretend that some uncomfortable things happened to keep pushing a particular narratives.
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EPT
