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On November 16 2023 11:25 Cerebrate1 wrote:
Regarding self defense, if you can point me to one other nation in the world that would feel comfortable having rockets lobbed at it on the regular, and not feel justified trying to take out the culprits, I'll reconsider my stance. I feel like Israel was showing incredible self restraint by letting that happen for so long. But Oct 7 showed that it doesn’t (and wouldn’t) stop there.
As already explained numerous times, the reasons why this isn't a self-defense situation are, amongst I'm sure others:
- We were already engaging in violence, this is an acceleration not a response.
- We knowingly + Show Spoiler +(edited from intentionally)
- We have been propping up the people who attacked us for years because we have ulterior goals and we felt they were useful to those goals.
- We are willing to let these people stay in power in the event that the only alternatives are worse for our ulterior goals.
- All of our ministers keep talking about how our plans entail land grab.
- Many of those ministers were already talking about land grab prior to the attack we're reacting to.
- We leaked plans about land grab.
- We have a similar situation in a similar context in which we have been using self-defense as an excuse for land grab for years.
This is the forum in which I've been compared to a comic book villain because I think violence against fascists is morally fine and here I am having to explain why it's probably not self-defense to drop appartment blocks on children
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On November 16 2023 11:16 Salazarz wrote:
I love how the 'muh Israel self defense' monkeys are completely ignoring the fact that IDF has been carrying out violent reprisals for half a century and not even once has it shown to be an effective way to reduce militancy among the Palestinians. Not to mention that Israel's government literally admitted that they want Hamas to be a thing because it gives them a convenient excuse to reject any real negotiations towards a proper Palestinian state, and have continued to antagonize Palestinians with their settlements and apartheid policies. But hey, they have no choice but to 'defend' themselves in a way that leads to massive death and suffering among civilian populations and is straight up guaranteed to further increase militancy and radicalism down the line, because uhh, it would be irresponsible not to do that!
It's actually incredible how utterly idiotic and bloodthirsty some people in this thread are. Even 16 year old edgelord me wasn't edgy enough to pretend that Travolta's character in Swordfish was somehow a good guy.
So you are saying that Israel is under attack (rockets are still falling) and has the right to defend itself, but you disagree that this is the best strategy to make them most secure. Now we are getting somewhere.
Listen, I agree with you that the previous strategy of just blowing up rocket launchers and rocket caches is clearly insufficient. Israel agrees with you on that point too. That's why they are trying a new approach that they have never tried before to try to undo the clearly bad status quo. They are going to try to remove the government who starts a war every couple of years.
Will this strategy work? I don't know. A lot of balls are still up in the air and there are a lot of players who still have the power to nudge them left or right. But it could work. And no one else is riding in to stop Hamas in the meantime.
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On November 16 2023 11:48 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 11:16 Salazarz wrote:
I love how the 'muh Israel self defense' monkeys are completely ignoring the fact that IDF has been carrying out violent reprisals for half a century and not even once has it shown to be an effective way to reduce militancy among the Palestinians. Not to mention that Israel's government literally admitted that they want Hamas to be a thing because it gives them a convenient excuse to reject any real negotiations towards a proper Palestinian state, and have continued to antagonize Palestinians with their settlements and apartheid policies. But hey, they have no choice but to 'defend' themselves in a way that leads to massive death and suffering among civilian populations and is straight up guaranteed to further increase militancy and radicalism down the line, because uhh, it would be irresponsible not to do that!
It's actually incredible how utterly idiotic and bloodthirsty some people in this thread are. Even 16 year old edgelord me wasn't edgy enough to pretend that Travolta's character in Swordfish was somehow a good guy. So you are saying that Israel is under attack (rockets are still falling) and has the right to defend itself, but you disagree that this is the best strategy to make them most secure. Now we are getting somewhere. Listen, I agree with you that the previous strategy of just blowing up rocket launchers and rocket caches is clearly insufficient. Israel agrees with you on that point too. That's why they are trying a new approach that they have never tried before to try to undo the clearly bad status quo. They are going to try to remove the government who starts a war every couple of years. Will this strategy work? I don't know. A lot of balls are still up in the air and there are a lot of players who still have the power to nudge them left or right. But it could work. And no one else is riding in to stop Hamas in the meantime.
We all agree that Hamas has no qualms hiding amongst civilians. We all know that Hamas doesn't wear ID tags. How do you expect Israel to actually wipe out Hamas, to the point that there's no one left to rebuild it? The absolute 'best case' scenario for Israel's pogrom in Gaza is that they get rid of the known leaders and some rank and file extremists -- but it's absolutely idiotic to claim there is even a chance of them actually 'eradicating' Hamas. It's simply impossible to track down and kill every single last lieutenant, and with the carnage they are carrying out, the surviving lieutenants will have zero difficulty replenishing the rank and file minions. Not to mention that even if they did somehow actually kill every single Hamas militant, a new entity that would be exactly the same in all but name would arise to replace it, just like Hamas itself gained steam when PLO started to pivot away from extremism.
If Israel's 'plan' had even some chance of success, I could at least understand the position of people like you who insist that it's justified or even necessary. I wouldn't accept it, but I could understand where it's coming from. But it doesn't. The outcome they claim to be pursuing isn't just unlikely, it's straight up impossible. It can't happen. There's no way they can succeed in achieving what they claim to be trying to achieve by doing what they are doing. Therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that Israel is full of shit, and their real goals are different from their stated goals; this is also supported by what we already know from their past actions -- such as supporting the rise of Hamas earlier, advancing their colonization agenda, and planting / fabricating evidence to justify their atrocities; and it is also supported by the rhetoric that runs in parallel to their 'security operation' such as the push for carving out a DMZ out of Gaza and insisting that it'd be great if Gazan Palestinians would just fuck off someplace else and never come back.
This isn't about self-defense. It's about making excuses to grab more land, and it's obvious as fuck.
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I can probably respond to a bunch at the same time.
@Nebuchad, if you care about how I would feel in that situation, the same as I do now. I would try to explain why they're wrong, just as I did. Unfortunately, I also have to understand that people are talking past each other because they have put themselves on a team and will fight tooth and nail for their team. They have predetermined viewpoints and will ignore evidence that contradicts their team's stances.
Some people refuse to accept the obvious because they're on team Palestine: Hamas is repeatedly committing war crimes and that is causing massive loss of life in Palestine.
@MaGic-PhiL
I understand that the IDF is quite strong militarily and Hamas is not. I understand that Hamas would be wiped out in an instant if they separated their military assets from the Palestinian citizens. That's the point. International law does not allow for Terrorist organizations and tries to discourage them because the results of them are awful.
And you're absolutely right that my response is that they should not be fighting at all. They should be looking for peaceful solutions. As Salazarz says, Hamas is empowering the worst parts of Israel rather then working with the best parts, which is actually the majority. The nice thing is that if you appeal to the better angels of Israel, it's a democracy and the good people can win out.
Unfortunately, Oct 7th has definitely changed the Israeli rhetoric more towards the demon on the shoulder rather than the angel.
@Salazarz
"Reprisals" - an act of retaliation. Yes, Israel has been retaliating since their founding. They have been under repeated attack since 1948. You are wrong about its effectiveness. It has indeed been effective since Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia are no longer directly attacking them.
And yes, a faction of assholes is now in charge of Israel, although the link to Hamas is completely overplayed. They benefit politically, yes, but that is far from helping Hamas. The best John Oliver came up with is that they didn't stop cars of money from reaching Hamas.
And just like you blame Israel's actions on radicalizing Hamas, I'd say Hamas's actions (and their precursors) have radicalized more and more Israelis. If there was even a year where Palestinians weren't trying to cause mass deaths in Israel, we might see a more peaceful government in Israel.
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On November 16 2023 12:00 RenSC2 wrote:
@Salazarz
"Reprisals" - an act of retaliation. Yes, Israel has been retaliating since their founding. They have been under repeated attack since 1948. You are wrong about its effectiveness. It has indeed been effective since Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia are no longer directly attacking them.
And yes, a faction of assholes is now in charge of Israel, although the link to Hamas is completely overplayed. They benefit politically, yes, but that is far from helping Hamas. The best John Oliver came up with is that they didn't stop cars of money from reaching Hamas.
And just like you blame Israel's actions on radicalizing Hamas, I'd say Hamas's actions (and their precursors) have radicalized more and more Israelis. If there was even a year where Palestinians weren't trying to cause mass deaths in Israel, we might see a more peaceful government in Israel.
Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia aren't occupied and being colonized by Israel. It's straight up idiotic to claim that it's in any way similar to what is happening in Gaza / West Bank.
Of course Hamas' actions are radicalizing Israelis, nobody is claiming otherwise. But Israel holds all the cards to ending this conflict. It's ridiculous to expect an extremist, fundamentalist terrorist organization to suddenly take the moral high ground -- it's just not going to happen, no matter how awesome it would be if it did. Like, I'm all for Hamas laying down arms and taking up gardening instead, it would be totally great. But it's not going to happen, at least not until Israel fucks off from the settlements and lets Palestinians to actually have a place to live without fear of being bombed or chased out of.
Israelis aren't worried that tomorrow they might not have a home to come back to, but that's the reality for most Palestinians. It's an entirely asymmetrical conflict and having the same standard for both sides is not only silly, but also unproductive at all. There is no way this conflict will end without Israel actually seeking a peaceful solution regardless of what Hamas is doing; the only way to get rid of Hamas is to show Palestinians that they can live better without them; and Israel is unwilling to do that, so damn right I blame Israel just as much as I blame Hamas for the death and destruction that is going on.
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On November 16 2023 06:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 06:02 Cerebrate1 wrote:On November 16 2023 05:19 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
IDF Colonel giving a tour of the Hospital. No idea why the laptop would be blurred. Where are the Doctors without borders staff in all this, were they removed?
Huh, yet more clearly documented war crimes by Hamas. I wonder if all those people who are so concerned about upholding international law will protest against Hamas, demand for them to surrender, or at least stop using protected sites for military purposes? There are a lot of countries who buy oil and gas from Qatar who could very easily apply pressure if they really wanted to. Yeah, it’s like how people protest police brutality but they don’t protest criminal brutality. It’s a literal double standard. The IDF is literally being held to a higher standard than actual terrorists. I for one am outraged.
If no one was stopping the criminals from being brutal, you don't think there would be protests for someone to stop them? You blame your government for bad police, but you better believe people hold their government accountable if crime is rampant and they aren't hiring enough police to stop it. I've listed at least one way that world governments could pressure the government of Hamas. Forget Israelis, why don't people ask their governments to pressure Hamas for the sake of the Palestinians living in Gaza?
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On November 16 2023 12:06 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 12:00 RenSC2 wrote:
@Salazarz
"Reprisals" - an act of retaliation. Yes, Israel has been retaliating since their founding. They have been under repeated attack since 1948. You are wrong about its effectiveness. It has indeed been effective since Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia are no longer directly attacking them.
And yes, a faction of assholes is now in charge of Israel, although the link to Hamas is completely overplayed. They benefit politically, yes, but that is far from helping Hamas. The best John Oliver came up with is that they didn't stop cars of money from reaching Hamas.
And just like you blame Israel's actions on radicalizing Hamas, I'd say Hamas's actions (and their precursors) have radicalized more and more Israelis. If there was even a year where Palestinians weren't trying to cause mass deaths in Israel, we might see a more peaceful government in Israel. Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia aren't occupied and being colonized by Israel. It's straight up idiotic to claim that it's in any way similar to what is happening in Gaza / West Bank. Of course Hamas' actions are radicalizing Israelis, nobody is claiming otherwise. But Israel holds all the cards to ending this conflict. It's ridiculous to expect an extremist, fundamentalist terrorist organization to suddenly take the moral high ground -- it's just not going to happen, no matter how awesome it would be if it did. Like, I'm all for Hamas laying down arms and taking up gardening instead, it would be totally great. But it's not going to happen, at least not until Israel fucks off from the settlements and lets Palestinians to actually have a place to live without fear of being bombed or chased out of. Israelis aren't worried that tomorrow they might not have a home to come back to, but that's the reality for most Palestinians. It's an entirely asymmetrical conflict and having the same standard for both sides is not only silly, but also unproductive at all. There is no way this conflict will end without Israel actually seeking a peaceful solution regardless of what Hamas is doing; the only way to get rid of Hamas is to show Palestinians that they can live better without them; and Israel is unwilling to do that, so damn right I blame Israel just as much as I blame Hamas for the death and destruction that is going on.
Iran is perpetually close to building a nuclear weapon. If they ever are allowed to complete it, it could find its way into Hamas's hands. Same with chemical weapons, Iraq still had stocks of it when the US invaded. Who knows how much of it went missing.
Power is very transitory. No, it isn't guaranteed that any Israeli will have a home to come back to tomorrow. Even if it's not something massive, an unlucky rocket hit (which have been fired every year from Palestine since 2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) can kill any Israeli at any time or just destroy their home.
You are right that it's ridiculous to expect Hamas to suddenly take the moral high ground. That's why they need to be eliminated. Without Hamas, Israel has a chance of listening to their better angels. Hamas needs all of their power removed. Sure, you'll never get all of their members, but if those members can't get their hands on an assault rifle, let alone rockets and mortars, then they're effectively defanged and peace can begin. Until that happens, the rocket attacks will never stop and Israel will feel justified in squeezing Palestine even harder.
That's why this ground assault had to happen. You can soften up Hamas through bombing, but never remove its power (unless you actually go for a genocide, which no sane person wants). To actually remove their power, you'd have to go in and take it away directly. It is probably the only chance of finding peace.
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On November 16 2023 12:30 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 12:06 Salazarz wrote:On November 16 2023 12:00 RenSC2 wrote:
@Salazarz
"Reprisals" - an act of retaliation. Yes, Israel has been retaliating since their founding. They have been under repeated attack since 1948. You are wrong about its effectiveness. It has indeed been effective since Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and Saudi Arabia are no longer directly attacking them.
And yes, a faction of assholes is now in charge of Israel, although the link to Hamas is completely overplayed. They benefit politically, yes, but that is far from helping Hamas. The best John Oliver came up with is that they didn't stop cars of money from reaching Hamas.
And just like you blame Israel's actions on radicalizing Hamas, I'd say Hamas's actions (and their precursors) have radicalized more and more Israelis. If there was even a year where Palestinians weren't trying to cause mass deaths in Israel, we might see a more peaceful government in Israel. Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, or Saudi Arabia aren't occupied and being colonized by Israel. It's straight up idiotic to claim that it's in any way similar to what is happening in Gaza / West Bank. Of course Hamas' actions are radicalizing Israelis, nobody is claiming otherwise. But Israel holds all the cards to ending this conflict. It's ridiculous to expect an extremist, fundamentalist terrorist organization to suddenly take the moral high ground -- it's just not going to happen, no matter how awesome it would be if it did. Like, I'm all for Hamas laying down arms and taking up gardening instead, it would be totally great. But it's not going to happen, at least not until Israel fucks off from the settlements and lets Palestinians to actually have a place to live without fear of being bombed or chased out of. Israelis aren't worried that tomorrow they might not have a home to come back to, but that's the reality for most Palestinians. It's an entirely asymmetrical conflict and having the same standard for both sides is not only silly, but also unproductive at all. There is no way this conflict will end without Israel actually seeking a peaceful solution regardless of what Hamas is doing; the only way to get rid of Hamas is to show Palestinians that they can live better without them; and Israel is unwilling to do that, so damn right I blame Israel just as much as I blame Hamas for the death and destruction that is going on. Iran is perpetually close to building a nuclear weapon. If they ever are allowed to complete it, it could find its way into Hamas's hands. Same with chemical weapons, Iraq still had stocks of it when the US invaded. Who knows how much of it went missing. Power is very transitory. No, it isn't guaranteed that any Israeli will have a home to come back to tomorrow. Even if it's not something massive, an unlucky rocket hit (which have been fired every year from Palestine since 2001 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel) can kill any Israeli at any time or just destroy their home. You are right that it's ridiculous to expect Hamas to suddenly take the moral high ground. That's why they need to be eliminated. Without Hamas, Israel has a chance of listening to their better angels. Hamas needs all of their power removed. Sure, you'll never get all of their members, but if those members can't get their hands on an assault rifle, let alone rockets and mortars, then they're effectively defanged and peace can begin. Until that happens, the rocket attacks will never stop and Israel will feel justified in squeezing Palestine even harder. That's why this ground assault had to happen. You can soften up Hamas through bombing, but never remove its power (unless you actually go for a genocide, which no sane person wants). To actually remove their power, you'd have to go in and take it away directly. It is probably the only chance of finding peace.
So how do you imagine Israel's ground operation is going to accomplish this? How are they going to kill every Hamas member? How are they going to stop new Hamas members from emerging? Simply killing as many of them as possible clearly isn't enough, because that isn't going to stop the rocket attacks and so you've just killed thousands of civilians and demolished tens of thousands of homes to at best delay the next terror attack. And then when the next terror attack inevitably happens, what do you do, kill another 10,000 Palestinians and demolish what houses were left standing last time around? How do you picture this situation actually resolving?
Regarding the rest of your points, it's just fucking stupid talk honestly, and you can fuck off with that shit. Theoretically, a Hamas member could get a nuclear weapon from Russia or North Korea or Pakistan or something, too. Or a rogue American general could steal a nuke and detonate it in Beijing. I guess we should all just fucking kill each other and be done with it because there is a non-zero chance that someone else could kill us if we don't. Like, you're literally parroting the rhetoric of every worst dictator ever, 'get the bad guys before they get to us!'
Realistically, the number of Israelis killed by Hamas attacks (including the Oct 7th which just about everyone agrees was a huge security fuck up and entirely preventable) is statistically insignificant. It's a tragedy every time it happens of course, because it could be avoided and it's done intentionally by other human beings who really could be doing something better instead -- but basing your foreign policy around that shit is just stupid. Like, there are 50 times more Israelis dying in traffic accidents than from Hamas rockets in a typical year. It sucks that the number isn't zero, but it's insane to claim that it's some kind of an existential threat given the way things are.
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On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
Can you source the bolded? Because that would be a war crime?
If the fascists operate out of schools, hospitals and residential areas and openly use a human shield strategy then are you too stop no matter what?
I do not subscribe to the theory that the IDF is operated by a bunch of barely sentient morons. I think when they launch a bomb in a civilian area they have an understanding of what's going to happen, I don't think any one of them has ever gone "Oh shit, when we launched a bomb in this refugee camp because there was some Hamas dude there that we wanted to kill, we also killed a bunch of refugees, what a total accident, who could have seen that coming???"
On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
What makes Hamas not as bad or worse than fascists? I’d argue they are Nazi level bad with much worse treatment of women.
Nothing, I also believe that violence against Hamas is morally fine
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On November 16 2023 12:46 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 12:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
Can you source the bolded? Because that would be a war crime?
If the fascists operate out of schools, hospitals and residential areas and openly use a human shield strategy then are you too stop no matter what? I do not subscribe to the theory that the IDF is operated by a bunch of barely sentient morons. I think when they launch a bomb in a civilian area they have an understanding of what's going to happen, I don't think any one of them has ever gone "Oh shit, when we launched a bomb in this refugee camp because there was some Hamas dude there that we wanted to kill, we also killed a bunch of refugees, what a total accident, who could have seen that coming???" On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
What makes Hamas not as bad or worse than fascists? I’d argue they are Nazi level bad with much worse treatment of women. Nothing, I also believe that violence against Hamas is also morally fine Then I think we have a different definition of intentional. So if some fascists were popping out every once in a while to kill LGBTQ2+ people and Muslims you would have a policy of only catching them in the act. Not going to get them if they imbedded in with civilians and used the human shield strategy? I'm not sure I disagree, but given how horrible the people are and that they are purposefully using the worlds most awful loophole that does not feel right either.
My definition is "done on purpose, deliberate".
Presumably if someone is doing the human shield strategy and you choose to shoot at them anyway, killing the human shield, I feel confident in saying that this was done on purpose, deliberately.
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Salazarz, 100% is not the threshold that needs to be met. Nazi ideology was never fully wiped out, but Germany is clearly totally not Nazi'ish at this point. Extremely significant gains can be achieved without reaching 100%.
I think we all agree military action against a scummy human shield-wielding terrorist organization is not ideal, but Iran and Qatar do not seem to have any plans to dismantle Hamas. Personally I think addressing Qatar and Iran as the underlying mechanism of Hamas operating is a better approach. But I don't really know enough about world politics stuff to properly understand why we don't do anything about Iran and Qatar being shitters.
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On November 16 2023 12:55 Mohdoo wrote:
Salazarz, 100% is not the threshold that needs to be met. Nazi ideology was never fully wiped out, but Germany is clearly totally not Nazi'ish at this point. Extremely significant gains can be achieved without reaching 100%.
I think we all agree military action against a scummy human shield-wielding terrorist organization is not ideal, but Iran and Qatar do not seem to have any plans to dismantle Hamas. Personally I think addressing Qatar and Iran as the underlying mechanism of Hamas operating is a better approach. But I don't really know enough about world politics stuff to properly understand why we don't do anything about Iran and Qatar being shitters.
Why do you keep comparing Hamas to Nazi Germany? Like, they're not even remotely similar not to mention that Israel itself has stated multiple times that they have no interest in doing what the Allied nations did in Germany so why is whatever happened in Germany relevant here at all?
Why do you think that Palestinians will stop terror attacks against Israel if you kill whatever arbitrary percent of Hamas members? Do you think fear of death is going to stop them from radicalizing if you just kill enough of them?
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On November 16 2023 13:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 12:52 Nebuchad wrote:On November 16 2023 12:46 JimmiC wrote:On November 16 2023 12:42 Nebuchad wrote:On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
Can you source the bolded? Because that would be a war crime?
If the fascists operate out of schools, hospitals and residential areas and openly use a human shield strategy then are you too stop no matter what? I do not subscribe to the theory that the IDF is operated by a bunch of barely sentient morons. I think when they launch a bomb in a civilian area they have an understanding of what's going to happen, I don't think any one of them has ever gone "Oh shit, when we launched a bomb in this refugee camp because there was some Hamas dude there that we wanted to kill, we also killed a bunch of refugees, what a total accident, who could have seen that coming???" On November 16 2023 12:16 JimmiC wrote:
What makes Hamas not as bad or worse than fascists? I’d argue they are Nazi level bad with much worse treatment of women. Nothing, I also believe that violence against Hamas is also morally fine Then I think we have a different definition of intentional. So if some fascists were popping out every once in a while to kill LGBTQ2+ people and Muslims you would have a policy of only catching them in the act. Not going to get them if they imbedded in with civilians and used the human shield strategy? I'm not sure I disagree, but given how horrible the people are and that they are purposefully using the worlds most awful loophole that does not feel right either. My definition is "done on purpose, deliberate". Presumably if someone is doing the human shield strategy and you choose to shoot at them anyway, killing the human shield, I feel confident in saying that this was done on purpose, deliberately. Deliberately sounds closer to right but still not there for me. Intentionally generally means wants too, where as this is just like willing too pay the cost if they get their target. Very cold instead of evil. But you just let the fascists just go on doing their evil stuff if they can make it back to their safe zones? Hard for me to wrap my head around even if it is over all the “best” solution. And then how do you feel about the people who are actually hiding and supporting the fascists? What should be done about them?
If you're willing to pay the cost of something, then surely by definition you want to do that something. You're not arguing that it's not intentional, you're arguing that it's okay.
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On November 16 2023 10:23 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time. I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
You get used to it after a while. I do think you were on the right track but didn't go back far enough.
I think we need to first establish if people believe Palestinians have a right to self-defense themselves. I don't get the impression most of the people rationalizing Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign actually do.
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@Nebuchad
I surely can see a difference between doing something necessary, but unfortunate, versus wanting to do something. They're wanting to kill the terrorist. They're not wanting to kill the hostage. However, the hostage is the price to pay for killing the terrorist. In the past, Israel has generally allowed the terrorist to use hostages to get away. However, Oct 7th changed that. They're willing to go after the terrorist even if that means some of the hostages die... in this case literally, not just the figurative hostages that are the Palestinians.
"I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate who is more devoted to 'order' than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice" - MLK
A negative peace is no longer acceptable to the Israeli moderate. Israel is choosing justice, despite its costs.
@Salazarz
As Mohdoo said, 100% kill rate on Hamas is not necessary. Israel administering the land should be the real goal. If they can get an international coalition to do it, so much the better. Gaza can no longer be an independent entity left to its own devices. It needs to be completely disarmed. I've suggested near Big Brother style control over Gaza. Hamas members can still hate Israel, but they can't hold a rocket or an AK47 ever again. If they so much as toss a rock at a soldier, they should be hauled off to jail.
It ain't great, but it's better than what exists now and can lead to future generations having a chance. Children can actually grow up in a peaceful place, get an education, and have a future.
As for my "just fucking stupid talk", there's a huge difference between me sitting in my cozy home next to neighbors that I get along with versus Israel being in the middle of a bunch of countries that want them wiped off the face of the map. I shouldn't be worried, but if I'm in Israel, I would be.
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EPT
