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On November 16 2023 08:17 Falling wrote: Well, fortunately this eventuality has already been covered in International Humanitarian Law.
"Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."
Hospitals are immune. Hospitals lose their immunity if they are used to commit harmful acts to the enemy, like for instance if they are used as combatant headquarters (or, I imagine, holding of hostages). It doesn't mean Israel should as a result just flatten the hospital with a bomb (which they did not do.) But it does mean they are operating within the bounds of international law to seize and control the hospital. My guess is the IDF will want the hospital to keep running as a hospital, but we'll see.
This sounds so great until you realize that Israel is no longer threatened. Their existence is secured and their citizens are overwhelmingly safe. And that requires little to no bombardment of Gaza. So the phrase "commit acts harmful to the enemy" no longer applies. It hasn't applied for several weeks.
That is not how the rules of war work.
I don't care about "rules of war". War sucks. Suffering should be minimized, and Israel is not minimizing the suffering or even trying to. That's what I care about.
I hope that is what most people care about and really that is my point and has been for a while. The consequences are horrible whether Israel follows the rules of war or not. Whether it is ethnic cleansing or genocide or not the results are horrible. Hamas has created a situation where civilians and innocents must die for them to be attacked.
So do we need new rules? Like should you just not be able to conduct any operation outside of your borders? If a terrorist group like Hamas is getting support from a legitimate government should they be able to be attacked instead?
There is only the right to defend, not a right to attack. The latter strictly doesn't, or rather shouldn't, exist. Under any circumstances. Israel is no longer defending, and they haven't been defending for the last few weeks. I will not accept anyone painting this as anything else, because anything else is a lie. No one has been able to present an argument that shows that, for the sake of minimizing casualties on either side, Israel has to keep bombarding and invading Gaza. Quite the opposite.
On November 16 2023 08:17 Falling wrote: Well, fortunately this eventuality has already been covered in International Humanitarian Law.
"Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."
Hospitals are immune. Hospitals lose their immunity if they are used to commit harmful acts to the enemy, like for instance if they are used as combatant headquarters (or, I imagine, holding of hostages). It doesn't mean Israel should as a result just flatten the hospital with a bomb (which they did not do.) But it does mean they are operating within the bounds of international law to seize and control the hospital. My guess is the IDF will want the hospital to keep running as a hospital, but we'll see.
This sounds so great until you realize that Israel is no longer threatened. Their existence is secured and their citizens are overwhelmingly safe. And that requires little to no bombardment of Gaza. So the phrase "commit acts harmful to the enemy" no longer applies. It hasn't applied for several weeks.
That is not how the rules of war work.
I don't care about "rules of war". War sucks. Suffering should be minimized, and Israel is not minimizing the suffering or even trying to. That's what I care about.
I hope that is what most people care about and really that is my point and has been for a while. The consequences are horrible whether Israel follows the rules of war or not. Whether it is ethnic cleansing or genocide or not the results are horrible. Hamas has created a situation where civilians and innocents must die for them to be attacked.
So do we need new rules? Like should you just not be able to conduct any operation outside of your borders? If a terrorist group like Hamas is getting support from a legitimate government should they be able to be attacked instead?
There is only the right to defend, not a right to attack. The latter strictly doesn't, or rather shouldn't, exist. Under any circumstances. Israel is no longer defending, and they haven't been defending for the last few weeks. I will not accept anyone painting this as anything else, because anything else is a lie. No one has been able to present an argument that shows that, for the sake of minimizing casualties on either side, Israel has to keep bombarding and invading Gaza. Quite the opposite.
On November 16 2023 08:17 Falling wrote: Well, fortunately this eventuality has already been covered in International Humanitarian Law.
"Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."
Hospitals are immune. Hospitals lose their immunity if they are used to commit harmful acts to the enemy, like for instance if they are used as combatant headquarters (or, I imagine, holding of hostages). It doesn't mean Israel should as a result just flatten the hospital with a bomb (which they did not do.) But it does mean they are operating within the bounds of international law to seize and control the hospital. My guess is the IDF will want the hospital to keep running as a hospital, but we'll see.
This sounds so great until you realize that Israel is no longer threatened. Their existence is secured and their citizens are overwhelmingly safe. And that requires little to no bombardment of Gaza. So the phrase "commit acts harmful to the enemy" no longer applies. It hasn't applied for several weeks.
That is not how the rules of war work.
I don't care about "rules of war". War sucks. Suffering should be minimized, and Israel is not minimizing the suffering or even trying to. That's what I care about.
I hope that is what most people care about and really that is my point and has been for a while. The consequences are horrible whether Israel follows the rules of war or not. Whether it is ethnic cleansing or genocide or not the results are horrible. Hamas has created a situation where civilians and innocents must die for them to be attacked.
So do we need new rules? Like should you just not be able to conduct any operation outside of your borders? If a terrorist group like Hamas is getting support from a legitimate government should they be able to be attacked instead?
There is only the right to defend, not a right to attack. The latter strictly doesn't, or rather shouldn't, exist. Under any circumstances. Israel is no longer defending, and they haven't been defending for the last few weeks. I will not accept anyone painting this as anything else, because anything else is a lie. No one has been able to present an argument that shows that, for the sake of minimizing casualties on either side, Israel has to keep bombarding and invading Gaza. Quite the opposite.
Correct they declared war on Hamas.
It's not correct. Self defense means elimination of the threat. That can include attacks on enemy ground. Or should Ukraine's right to self defense also stop at their own borders? It's a ridiculous standard.
On November 16 2023 08:17 Falling wrote: Well, fortunately this eventuality has already been covered in International Humanitarian Law.
"Rule 28. Medical units exclusively assigned to medical purposes must be respected and protected in all circumstances. They lose their protection if they are being used, outside their humanitarian function, to commit acts harmful to the enemy."
Hospitals are immune. Hospitals lose their immunity if they are used to commit harmful acts to the enemy, like for instance if they are used as combatant headquarters (or, I imagine, holding of hostages). It doesn't mean Israel should as a result just flatten the hospital with a bomb (which they did not do.) But it does mean they are operating within the bounds of international law to seize and control the hospital. My guess is the IDF will want the hospital to keep running as a hospital, but we'll see.
This sounds so great until you realize that Israel is no longer threatened. Their existence is secured and their citizens are overwhelmingly safe. And that requires little to no bombardment of Gaza. So the phrase "commit acts harmful to the enemy" no longer applies. It hasn't applied for several weeks.
That is not how the rules of war work.
I don't care about "rules of war". War sucks. Suffering should be minimized, and Israel is not minimizing the suffering or even trying to. That's what I care about.
I hope that is what most people care about and really that is my point and has been for a while. The consequences are horrible whether Israel follows the rules of war or not. Whether it is ethnic cleansing or genocide or not the results are horrible. Hamas has created a situation where civilians and innocents must die for them to be attacked.
So do we need new rules? Like should you just not be able to conduct any operation outside of your borders? If a terrorist group like Hamas is getting support from a legitimate government should they be able to be attacked instead?
There is only the right to defend, not a right to attack. The latter strictly doesn't, or rather shouldn't, exist. Under any circumstances. Israel is no longer defending, and they haven't been defending for the last few weeks. I will not accept anyone painting this as anything else, because anything else is a lie. No one has been able to present an argument that shows that, for the sake of minimizing casualties on either side, Israel has to keep bombarding and invading Gaza. Quite the opposite.
Correct they declared war on Hamas.
It's not correct. Self defense means elimination of the threat. That can include attacks on enemy ground. Or should Ukraine's right to self defense also stop at their own borders? It's a ridiculous standard.
If Russia is no longer on Ukrainian ground, Ukraine has no right to invade Russia, unless the border situation is considered unstable.
This conversation is probably the closest I've been to thinking the world is a simulation because literally every three days it just resets and you guys loop back to talking about self-defense and none of the mountain of evidence that shows Israel isn't engaged in an act of self-defense ever gets addressed in any way.
I can't lie a part of me really thought that John Oliver would get through, he usually does.
Ive watched a lot of stuff with him recently and it seems like his takes are/sound pretty convincing.
also: Whoever here is using IDFs Videos as proof of anything is out of his mind. Have you seen the types of videos they make? It is blatant propaganda if u ask me. As is Hamas stuff..
And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
Im not trusting hear - say, Im not trusting opinions, and Im not trusting either side (IDF,Israel, Hamas)
So what is left is listening to experts. I mean even trusting Videos these days is boarderline impossible with the technology we have. I dont know if you realize this.. like for real.. almost anything can be staged/faked..
that being said.. I doubt deep fakes really existed back then .. / this isnt faked.. so if we can agree on that..
What is your stance on this for the "PRO ISRAEL, we aint doing nothing wrong crowd and only Hamas is to blame for everything that has happened and is currently happening in Gaza ect.." on this? (JimmiC, RvB, and a few others)
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
That all sounds very convincing. How would you feel if I didn't answer anything to this post, and then three days later I went "Ah yes but what else is Hamas supposed to do, they have to defend themselves"?
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
That all sounds very convincing. How would you feel if I didn't answer anything to this post, and then three days later I went "Ah yes but what else is Hamas supposed to do, they have to defend themselves"?
I answered your question. I'll answer this one too. If they feel like defending themselves, they should stick to military targets. They should also stop shooting Palestinian citizens trying to flee the fighting.
RENSC2 u are either completely clueless about the capacity of the Israel miliatry compared to the Hamas military or using a very weird/cheap strategy here.
Like it truly boggles my mind. Please consider using your brain.
Hamas has the weapon technology it has. Which is basically a joke compared to Israels. So they do with it what they can. I DO NOT ENDORSE IT. Im just stating facts. SO dont even go there.
Now you can ofc say "I wish they wouldnt fight at all and just accept whatever is happening".. But you surely can not be serious.. with a stance like "uh ah uh.. why dont the Hamas carry out precision strikes on Israel military targets" UH!?
Like .. honstly Im getting a bit enraged at this point at how clueless people are..
THE IDF can seperate military structures from civilian structures easily. Like you do realize Gaza is a completely different entity than..
ah no.. u know what Im sorry for my heated tone.. Im good with this topic.. I will stop posting
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
That all sounds very convincing. How would you feel if I didn't answer anything to this post, and then three days later I went "Ah yes but what else is Hamas supposed to do, they have to defend themselves"?
I answered your question. I'll answer this one too. If they feel like defending themselves, they should stick to military targets. They should also stop shooting Palestinian citizens trying to flee the fighting.
I love how the 'muh Israel self defense' monkeys are completely ignoring the fact that IDF has been carrying out violent reprisals for half a century and not even once has it shown to be an effective way to reduce militancy among the Palestinians. Not to mention that Israel's government literally admitted that they want Hamas to be a thing because it gives them a convenient excuse to reject any real negotiations towards a proper Palestinian state, and have continued to antagonize Palestinians with their settlements and apartheid policies. But hey, they have no choice but to 'defend' themselves in a way that leads to massive death and suffering among civilian populations and is straight up guaranteed to further increase militancy and radicalism down the line, because uhh, it would be irresponsible not to do that!
It's actually incredible how utterly idiotic and bloodthirsty some people in this thread are. Even 16 year old edgelord me wasn't edgy enough to pretend that Travolta's character in Swordfish was somehow a good guy.
On November 16 2023 10:20 MaGic~PhiL wrote: And I agree with Nebuchad.. it is truly annoying how it is always the same and no one changes his opinions.
I have no problem with people not changing opinions, in my experience this is not really the context in which people change their opinions. I'm just at a loss as to how people think this is an appropriate way for a discussion to run. I'm not going to write the same post every time.
I don't know, let's try another angle, how can we tell that Hamas isn't engaging in an act of self-defense?
Simple, the IDF separates its military structures from civilian structures, making civilian structures completely exempt from attacks. Attacks on them cannot be self-defense. Hamas mostly attacked civilian structures and even a concert for peace, not military targets.
Israel cannot simply allow a terrorist organization to repeatedly attack Israel. It would be completely irresponsible as a civilized nation to allow that to happen to their citizens. Self defense can certainly include taking out rocket launching sites and munitions depots, even if in foreign land, even if it's in a hospital. Otherwise Osama Bin Laden would have just walked into a hospital and set up shop there rather than trying to hide around the world.
Unfortunately, Hamas commits repeated war crimes by integrating their military structures into civilian structures. Those war crimes have resulted in the deaths of over 10,000 Palestinians as the IDF destroys those military targets. Hamas needs to be stopped before they result in any more Palestinian citizen deaths.
That all sounds very convincing. How would you feel if I didn't answer anything to this post, and then three days later I went "Ah yes but what else is Hamas supposed to do, they have to defend themselves"?
I agree that this may not be the ideal format to have a proper debate. There are a lot more than 2 people posting at a time so the topics wander. For anyone who has a day job, you can't just respond immediately to every post that comes up. For me, generally, by the time I read responses to my posts, they are usually buried pages back, a new topic has started, and I'm not always sure that it makes sense to backtrack, especially if someone else has addressed the point already by then.
I can't speak for everyone, but I frequently do change my opinions if and when new information comes to light. I'm unlikely to ever adopt the general "Israel = bad" approach some try to push, but I don't feel like that's a very productive line of thought anyways.
Regarding self defense, if you can point me to one other nation in the world that would feel comfortable having rockets lobbed at it on the regular, and not feel justified trying to take out the culprits, I'll reconsider my stance. I feel like Israel was showing incredible self restraint by letting that happen for so long. But Oct 7 showed that it doesn’t (and wouldn’t) stop there.
EPT
