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Gorsameth
Netherlands21528 Posts
On November 17 2023 01:20 TentativePanda wrote: Because to Israel, anything that isn't a full support of whatever Israel wants is anti-Semitism.Dropping by for a second. Can someone explain to me how calling for a ceasefire is anti-semitic? | ||
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BlackJack
United States10340 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24419 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15473 Posts
On November 16 2023 21:25 MaGic~PhiL wrote: @rvb I do not remember everything you ever wrote in this topic a could you stop this whiny attitude? You won't respond to a YouTube video. Point taken. I wouldn't respond to things that contradict my view too. After all one would have to consider the possibility to be wrong on certain points. A bit bewildering not a single person has so far responded to my question about Norman G. Finkelstein and if he is a serious scholar. I watched him countless times and read varies books he wrote. I know this will sound arrogant and like a ad hominem round house kick but I have the feeling even though I didn't literally study this stuff or look at it 24/7 I engaged with serious sources a lot lore than most in here (I'm not taking about 4 minute YouTube videos here just to make that clear).. Meanwhile I feel like basically all 'hardcore pro Israel' guys in here have arguments and styles of discussing this topic like they literally get their world view from main stream media, the idf (propaganda) itself or shady internet videos or stuff they read. Have you looked into what relatively independent organizations say about this conflict? Do you not trust them? If so why? So I do not like ad hominems or arguments from authority (not implying I am one on this topic in particular) but I honestly feel like I'm taking to 3-4 people in particular who simply do not have enough unbiased knowledge about this topic. I am sorry but that is just how I feel at this point.. Here is my thought on Norman G. Finkelstein: Consideration #1: Posts made by Hamas on October 7 on Telegram, including videos celebrating some of the more grotesque things they did Consideration #2: Hamas declaring they intend to kill all Jews on the whole planet Consideration #3: Hamas saying Palestinians are "a nation of martyrs" and that any Palestinian who dies in pursuit of killing Jews died a noble, good death, and that it is not a tragedy for any Palestinian to die so long as their death in some way contributed to killing Jews Consideration #4: Norman G. Finkelstein expresses positive views of Hamas, indicating their actions are a net-positive. Conclusion: Norman G Finkelstein is a deeply troubled man, who has accidentally over-committed to an ideology and found ways to apply it to situations where it does not readily apply. This is common among particularly "principled" folks, who essentially glorify the concept of core ethical axioms being applied to a wide variety of situations. To make a computational comparison, folks of this nature tend to regress a model around a set of parameters where some variables are fixed when they should not be. This causes the model to output a conclusion which is consistent, but flawed, because the model did not regress the right variables. It is the common flaw of folks who glorify the idea of being principled or rigid in their belief structures: The assumption that situational nuance harms ethical dialectics rather than aids them. The sad reality is that folks who try to over-apply moral axioms are generally people who are deeply motivated to make the world a better place. They absolutely loathe the idea of human suffering, and they want to do everything they can to advocate for a better world where more people are happy and less people suffer. Despite this perhaps being THE most worthy/noble pursuit, it has an unfortunate impact of harming the individual by overwhelming them with the harsh realities of the world. A coping mechanism of dealing with the overwhelming dread that comes from over-consuming these thoughts leads to people like to detaching from nuance as a way of protecting themselves from the discomfort of uncertainty. It isn't quite the same as self-radicalizing, but it is rooted in a natural defense mechanism to seek the sense of peace associated with believing "I am living ethically, and my beliefs are ethical". I'll spare you my description of how/why I am a violence-endorsing leftist, but I love ideas put forth by Frantz Fanon. I would like to see a sharp increase in violence conducted by victims of systemic power imbalances. Demonizing violence and other forms of cultural manipulation have been done with the purpose of taking power away from the masses to allow fat cats to more safely conduct their evil siphoning of resources from the world. So please understand that I am saying all of this as someone who wants violence as a whole within the masses to sharpy increase and be directed towards those with power. With that being said, here is how I described the mistake Finkelstein and other leftists are making to a friend of mine: Here is the mistake folks I generally agree with are making right now: As soon as they confirm Israel is definitely doing some unethical stuff towards a group that is definitely weaker than them, its as simple as that and they assume Hamas are good guys. But its not that Hamas are good. They are strictly evil. Its that there are no "good guys" in this conflict. This is a plain and simple example of human suffering not having an interlock. A ton of incredible tragedy can take place without any kind of heroism or savior or protagonist involved. Palestinians are used as weapons by Iran and Qatar. Palestinians are kicked off their land by Israel. In short, they are unwilling/unable to internalize the TRUE scope of how evil and tragic the Palestinian situation is. They are having their livelihood, identity, and land taken from them by Israel. They are being manipulated into transforming into weapons by Iran and Qatar. Their minds are being poisoned beyond repair by the folks who are supposed to be governing them. They are being encouraged to give their lives by people who know they are so weak, so without hope, and so distraught, that they need some powerful ideology to hold on to. I truly view it as equivalent, if not much worse than slavery. Poisoning their minds, and compelling them to commit acts of evil while also sacrificing their own lives is a level of evil I think interlocks most people's brains and forces them to not really absorb what it means for that to happen. All the while, the US, China, Russia, the EU, and all other entities powerful and rich enough to just directly help these people are choosing not to do so, because the ECONOMIC reasons for doing so are unfavorable. Many separate, independent entities in the world are all making a conscious decision to prioritize money over Palestinians and allowing both Israel and Hamas/Iran/Qatar to farm their bodies and poison their minds. It is among the most heinous and extreme tragedies on the planet right now. Lots of people are being killed, cleansed, raped and pillaged, but the psychological component to the Gaza situation is particularly grim and disturbing when you consider how many entities don't feel like it is more important than financial considerations. When people learn of extreme tragedy, they instinctively need to feel like there is a protagonist who is at least trying to help. Even if they are an underdog, it is a natural human instinct to feel uneasy when a victim isn’t being helped. Palestinians aren’t being helped. There are 2 groups who are both harming Palestinians and no one is making any effort to help them. They are entirely alone and abandoned. Hamas is not a “necessary evil” or an “antihero” or any similar things. They are evil and the only incentive we have to frame them in a somewhat positive light is for our own selfish pursuit of a sense of inner peace. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
Poll: Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense? Yes (10) No (0) 10 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15473 Posts
On November 17 2023 02:17 GreenHorizons wrote: Poll: Do Palestinians have a right to self-defense? Yes (10) No (0) 10 total votes You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Yes I voted yes because Palestinians are at war with Israel and the cycle of offense and defense is a fundamental component of that. Hamas is the Palestinian government of Gaza and they are at war with Israel. I am praying this isn’t an attempt to drag the conversation into “they started it!!!”, since that’s a tired, repetitive discussion no one needs to repeat. But I’ve been hurt before, so I’m worried. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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KwarK
United States42258 Posts
On November 16 2023 17:33 RvB wrote: You're right I should not have posted. The comment about the mountain of evidence is quite ironic. As to John Oliver I don't get my foreign policy views from a comedian. He's no more of an expert on this conflict than me (not at all). Edit: Nice straw man. I've called out the settlements as a massive failure just a page before your comment. I'm not going to respond to a YouTube video. If you have a question or want to know where I think Israel displays unacceptable behaviour I will respond. John Oliver is reading words off an auto cue. You’re not necessarily trusting him, you’re trusting the research and editorial team that produces the show. The guy reading is trusted only to be able to turn written text into mouth noises correctly. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On November 17 2023 02:28 Mohdoo wrote: I voted yes because Palestinians are at war with Israel and the cycle of offense and defense is a fundamental component of that. Hamas is the Palestinian government of Gaza and they are at war with Israel. I am praying this isn’t an attempt to drag the conversation into “they started it!!!”, since that’s a tired, repetitive discussion no one needs to repeat. But I’ve been hurt before, so I’m worried. One of the first things anyone saying yes has to reconcile with their perspective is that Israel fundamentally disagrees with them. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15473 Posts
On November 17 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote: One of the first things anyone saying yes has to reconcile with their perspective is that Israel fundamentally disagrees with them. You're saying Israel does not consider themselves at war with Hamas? Israel of course doesn't want to be shot, but being shot is a part of being at war. What you are describing is placing blame on "who started it" by contextualizing the violence within a description of initiation. This is common in wars. No war participant ever considers themselves to be a shit head. The enemy is always the shit head. Its not worth worrying about because they are behaving like shit heads regardless. 2 shit heads shooting each other while the world collectively does absolutely nothing about it is just the way this situation goes. The only reason to try to shift the conversation towards "who started it" is for the purpose of allowing 1 of the participants to conduct violence while the other twinkles their eyes. That is of course dog shit, so its not worth getting into. Regardless of who threw the first pie, the cafeteria is now engaged in a food fight and everyone is getting a pie thrown at them. What is important is for everyone to sit down and finish their lunch. Even if we assume Israel is actually just satan and the whole situation is only due to satan wanting people to die, a ton of totally innocent Israelis and Palestinians live next to each other, and neither of them are going to say "ok just kill me. That would be hella kawaii. After all, my grandparents started it, so it is ok for you to kill me while I stand around apologizing to you". That is why I am saying its a meaningless distinction. Even if we were to all agree Israel is a shit head and they started it, it wouldn't change the fact that asking Israel to allow Hamas to be the only participant in the war is completely and totally ridiculous and impossible to implement anyway. They are at war, and any solution needs to use that as a core assumption. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22991 Posts
On November 17 2023 03:27 Mohdoo wrote: You're saying... + Show Spoiler + Israel does not consider themselves at war with Hamas? Israel of course doesn't want to be shot, but being shot is a part of being at war. What you are describing is placing blame on "who started it" by contextualizing the violence within a description of initiation. This is common in wars. No war participant ever considers themselves to be a shit head. The enemy is always the shit head. Its not worth worrying about because they are behaving like shit heads regardless. 2 shit heads shooting each other while the world collectively does absolutely nothing about it is just the way this situation goes. The only reason to try to shift the conversation towards "who started it" is for the purpose of allowing 1 of the participants to conduct violence while the other twinkles their eyes. That is of course dog shit, so its not worth getting into. Regardless of who threw the first pie, the cafeteria is now engaged in a food fight and everyone is getting a pie thrown at them. What is important is for everyone to sit down and finish their lunch. Even if we assume Israel is actually just satan and the whole situation is only due to satan wanting people to die, a ton of totally innocent Israelis and Palestinians live next to each other, and neither of them are going to say "ok just kill me. That would be hella kawaii. After all, my grandparents started it, so it is ok for you to kill me while I stand around apologizing to you". That is why I am saying its a meaningless distinction. Even if we were to all agree Israel is a shit head and they started it, it wouldn't change the fact that asking Israel to allow Hamas to be the only participant in the war is completely and totally ridiculous and impossible to implement anyway. They are at war, and any solution needs to use that as a core assumption. I'm saying what I said. One of the first things anyone saying yes has to reconcile with their perspective is that Israel fundamentally disagrees with them. I should note that the world isn't "doing absolutely nothing about it", the West (namely the US) is aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21528 Posts
On November 17 2023 03:25 JimmiC wrote: If you go back in time far enough to its founding? basically yes.Are you trying to say that Hamas is defending the Palestinians? From my limited understand, which may well be wrong, Hamas formed around the first intifada which was a response to the Israeli occupation of Gaza and the West bank. As far as they are concerned they are fighting for the freedom of Palestinians being oppressed by Israel. Remember, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15473 Posts
On November 17 2023 03:38 GreenHorizons wrote: I'm saying what I said. I should note that the world isn't "doing absolutely nothing about it", the West (namely the US) is aiding and abetting Israel's ongoing ethnic cleansing campaign. Can you elaborate on what you mean? It sounds like you are indicating I misunderstood you. | ||
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PhilGood2DaY
Germany7424 Posts
On November 17 2023 01:46 BlackJack wrote: To me RvB‘s postings have been quite reasonable and rational, even though they mostly oppose my own opinions. “Watch this youtube and respond” is a lazy way to argue and I see no issue if RvB doesn’t want to participate with that. It’s especially bizarre to consider it as a “refusal to respond to things that contradict his view” considering he’s been doing that for the entirety of this thread. People were able to have discussions before YouTube was invented. If someone is unable to adequately summarize and relay a YouTube video into words that seems like their failing as opposed to anyone else’s failing for not watching the video. We all "waste" countless hours of our lives.. doing random stuff. Partaking in a topic here is costing time. Now I really at the bottom of my heart dont see a big difference between reading a text for 4 minutes or watching a video for 4 minutes. Dont even get how that makes any sense whatsoever!? Also I would be insane to assume my knowledge and my writing skills/capabilites trump (this time to be honest longer videos 1-1,5h in general) of experts talking about their knowledge on this topic. But yeah bottom line.. If some1 feels there is a huge difference between reading/writing for a couple of minutes and watching a video.. that is not really sth I can completely understand. I feel like this topic is not really giving me anything anymore tbh. I watched/read a shitload of stuff on the conflict in the last couple days/weeks (and did before during my university time). I do think many people here are even less knowledgable than I am regarding this Conflict. So without blaming anyone I will for the timing being not keep on participating in here. It feels just too useless and dumb. Im not learning things. Just hearing a couple of (dominant) people posting a lot and spewing off questionable stances at the very least and insanely biased bullshit at times (e.g. people not being completely pro israel and seeing things in a more objective way being accused of antisemitsm..) | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13816 Posts
On November 17 2023 03:11 GreenHorizons wrote: One of the first things anyone saying yes has to reconcile with their perspective is that Israel fundamentally disagrees with them. This justifies collective punishment by making Hamas and Palestinians the same thing. Hamas and Palestinians are not one and the same the same way all americans are not republicans or George bush launching an invasion of Iraq. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24419 Posts
On November 17 2023 04:18 JimmiC wrote: Some how a couple pages back 100% of the people disagreed with you. But now multiple people are circling the freedom fighter drain again. It seems like a lot of people have conflicting views with themselves. Maybe this is why they keep making up views I have to argue against that are simpler. My views are not hidden, I do not think Hamas is run by people who care about Palestinians in the slightest. I do not believe their branding any more than I believe North Korea's. Committing heinous acts, holding heinous views and caring about one’s people aren’t mutually exclusive things. We are all thankfully insulated from the kinds of conditions that exist in Gaza, and what that will do to a populace over time. We all (I assume) recognise deprivation’s negative effects in all sorts of metrics in our various locales, but these still pale into comparison to Gaza, most places do. One can acknowledge this without in any way approving of their methods or rationales. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3732 Posts
I still haven't heard an argument that, considering that circumstance, would justify the continued bombardment of Gaza and the acceptance of civilian casualties. The numbers allegedly increased from 8000 to nearly 11 000 over the last ten days or so. I want to ask again how this can be justified. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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