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Democrats chose basically the least leftist candidate that they had at their disposal apart from I guess Delaney or some shit, and Nyxisto is still insisting that if they were close to losing it's because they were too far left.
Political analysis totally impervious to facts.
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On November 07 2020 05:16 Nebuchad wrote:
Democrats chose basically the least leftist candidate that they had at their disposal apart from I guess Delaney or some shit, and Nyxisto is still insisting that if they were close to losing it's because they were too far left.
Political analysis totally impervious to facts.
Putting out those fires is the first order of business among many party direction-minded progressive Democrats. Hearing Va Rep Spanberger chalk up basically the entirety of her electoral difficulties to other Democrats and leftists advocating vaguely socialistic things, in an area of the US with an incredibly large number of people living on federal government wages and some of the best infrastructure in the country, was very disheartening.
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On November 07 2020 05:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 04:35 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:32 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2020 04:29 KwarK wrote:On November 07 2020 04:18 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter. Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard. On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote:
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything. I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff. It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic. We can print money out of thin air to bail out corporations, but we can’t have healthcare? Etc etc Tbh I’m not even sure you have to bullshit on some issues, just simplify the message and its emotional core. People are idiots, this is the solution to selling left wing ideals. I'm an idiot. The primary difference between me and GH as people on the left is that GH knows things about theory, whereas I am a boob who is basically driven by the state of my life and the way I feel about the world around me that causes it. Americans as a whole are not like GH imo, they're closer to me. Speak dumb, speak clear, make good sense, convince dumbs like me, work many good I wouldn’t say you’re an idiot, me on the other hand... I think of it as a ‘circle of simplicity’, kiddo asks you why people are homeless or starving or whatever and you tell them it’s complicated, then eventually you think ‘wait, this isn’t complicated at all in any moral sense’. Actual policies that alleviate these problems can indeed be complicated, but the problems being problems is not, at all.
I might as well be in a thread where people like farva and GH and the like will go into things I both don't fully understand don't really intend to fully understand. 
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My response to this is a bit late and i am not going back to read and respond to everything on the last pages but this i like to point out.
On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
The answer of why you gave yourself:
"You'll never be Republican enough when there are real Republicans around".
Biden is somewhat conservative but you will never be conservative enough when there are real conservatives around (who recently did apoint a conservative catholic! judge).
Not meant as critisism btw because i do agree with you on many other things that you did mention in the past few pages.
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On November 07 2020 04:45 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 04:41 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:29 KwarK wrote:On November 07 2020 04:18 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter. Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard. On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote:
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything. I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff. It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic. Yeah but not all populism is equally effective. It never seemed like "big corporate man bad" stuff worked particularly well on the American electorate. They hate bureaucrats and politicians and love "drain the swamp", maybe taking on big tech is something will work, but when you start populist left-wing rhetoric they all run for the gun store. There's also a much stronger conflict between the liberal intelligentsia and a populist program than there is within the GOP. Trump's populism works much better with the rest of the GOP than it does with the Democratic establishment who'll probably balk at just becoming an idiot party. It's also obviously just horrible for the country overall, because much of it is just bad policy. As Trump showed, you don't actually need to implement any of the policy. People will believe it, whether or not you do it. The point is to win. If the voter is wondering why they can't work in a factory like their dad then it's no good going on a long lecture about how American factory output is actually higher than ever but that the jobs have changed from machinists to automation engineers meanwhile the end of the Cold War and the hegemony of global capitalism has opened up foreign markets for investment by American manufacturers which was, when you think about it, always what victory was going to look like. You need to say "China stole them, and the neoliberal billionaire cucks helped them do it".
We could dumb it down completely to "all you need to do is to keep the people happy enough that they dont want change" (keeping the people happy enough isnt completely within the control of the incumbent btw)
If the people are happy enough to not want change it will be extremely difficult for any challenger to win.
No matter If the challenger has a very similar platform or a radically different. In both cases there is no good reason for the voters to "risk" anything.
Maybe the one exception where the challenger has a chance would be if the challenger is far more charismatic. (thinking about Clinton vs Bush sr. here. I dont think the people where particulary unhappy during Bush sr. but Clinton was far more charismatic).
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Northern Ireland27236 Posts
On November 07 2020 04:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 04:34 m4ini wrote:On November 07 2020 04:29 KwarK wrote:On November 07 2020 04:18 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter. Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard. On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote:
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything. I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff. It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic. Yeah, lets make Idiocracy a documentary. Race to the bottom, here we come! Meanwhile, Republicans don't explain anything and instead lean heavily on quotidian sentiments like kitchen table economics, with relatively great success. They don't need to, because the average Trump voter doesn't give a shit why brown people are banned to come into the country. It's much different to, for example, do the opposite based on populism. In fact, the entire argument is retarded considering Trump LOST the election, proving that it doesn't work. I don't think Trump's loss proves that at all. If Trump wasn't such a complete moron himself but remotely competent his message probably would have been enough to win. Heck even with Trump being Trump, if Covid hadn't happened he may well have won.
Does someone more competent end up lacking that je ne sais quoi that manifests in real enthusiasm and drives turnout?
Trump’s whole shtick is a mix of saying what was previously not really considered acceptable parlance, through a blender of cognitive dissonance.
Can somebody more competent really tap into that and bridge things from Qanon thru more regular Conservatives?
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Northern Ireland27236 Posts
On November 07 2020 05:26 Zambrah wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 05:16 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2020 04:35 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:32 WombaT wrote:On November 07 2020 04:29 KwarK wrote:On November 07 2020 04:18 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter. Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard. On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote:
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything. I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff. It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic. We can print money out of thin air to bail out corporations, but we can’t have healthcare? Etc etc Tbh I’m not even sure you have to bullshit on some issues, just simplify the message and its emotional core. People are idiots, this is the solution to selling left wing ideals. I'm an idiot. The primary difference between me and GH as people on the left is that GH knows things about theory, whereas I am a boob who is basically driven by the state of my life and the way I feel about the world around me that causes it. Americans as a whole are not like GH imo, they're closer to me. Speak dumb, speak clear, make good sense, convince dumbs like me, work many good I wouldn’t say you’re an idiot, me on the other hand... I think of it as a ‘circle of simplicity’, kiddo asks you why people are homeless or starving or whatever and you tell them it’s complicated, then eventually you think ‘wait, this isn’t complicated at all in any moral sense’. Actual policies that alleviate these problems can indeed be complicated, but the problems being problems is not, at all. I might as well be in a thread where people like farva and GH and the like will go into things I both don't fully understand don't really intend to fully understand.
Yeah if I was going a Starcraft analogy I’m happy to just steal their builds
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Interesting view of a live conspiracy being created. It doesn't take much for these people to lose their shit. Hope the administrations rhetoric won't be inflammatory today.
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The things GH says i dont fully understand either at times. Its definitely an interesting perspective that contributes a lot but sometimes i just give up because as a non native english speaker who was a beta in school i often dont know the correct meaning of all the terminology that is beeing used.
I don,t think its needed to fully understand it either to get a good grasp of how politics works,politics in the end more about the common people and their perspectives then about the academic perspective,though the academic perspective is definitely interesting.
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In case anyone is wondering how y'allqaeda is reacting to this, violence is openly thrown around
+ Show Spoiler +
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Before I go to bed, I will say Twitter is feeding me 4chan things I didnt ask for and it looks like they're having some sort of Trump vs. Libertarian meltdown, lol.
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On November 07 2020 05:53 Mohdoo wrote:In case anyone is wondering how y'allqaeda is reacting to this, violence is openly thrown around + Show Spoiler +
I had a friend on Facebook called for civil war. Imagine that.
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As it stands now i think GA will still go to trump btw. Appearently 9k military ballots still outstanding and those will probably favor Trump quiet heavily. PA is starting to look like safe though which would be enough. AZ will hold as well i am inclined to think now.
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I take solace in the fact that the people I know that killed lots of people for the US while in the military don't particularly like Trump, he's too sloppy for their liking, they prefer Dick Cheney types.
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On November 07 2020 05:39 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 04:59 Gorsameth wrote:On November 07 2020 04:34 m4ini wrote:On November 07 2020 04:29 KwarK wrote:On November 07 2020 04:18 Nyxisto wrote:On November 07 2020 04:09 Zambrah wrote:On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote:
If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election. I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right? The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter. Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard. On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote:
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything. I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff. It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic. Yeah, lets make Idiocracy a documentary. Race to the bottom, here we come! Meanwhile, Republicans don't explain anything and instead lean heavily on quotidian sentiments like kitchen table economics, with relatively great success. They don't need to, because the average Trump voter doesn't give a shit why brown people are banned to come into the country. It's much different to, for example, do the opposite based on populism. In fact, the entire argument is retarded considering Trump LOST the election, proving that it doesn't work. I don't think Trump's loss proves that at all. If Trump wasn't such a complete moron himself but remotely competent his message probably would have been enough to win. Heck even with Trump being Trump, if Covid hadn't happened he may well have won. Does someone more competent end up lacking that je ne sais quoi that manifests in real enthusiasm and drives turnout? Trump’s whole shtick is a mix of saying what was previously not really considered acceptable parlance, through a blender of cognitive dissonance. Can somebody more competent really tap into that and bridge things from Qanon thru more regular Conservatives? I'd put Boris Johnson forward as an example. He seems to feed into the same Trumpian spirit but is less of a complete idiot.
You don't need to be a genius, you just need to be competent enough to get what you want done. Something Trump has consistently failed to do through stupidity.
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I believe Trump loves trolling the media. It is hilarious how they react to every lil thing he says. I think a lot of media will be downsizing once Trump is out of office. Who are they going to talk about 24/7??
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On November 07 2020 05:58 Zerothegreat wrote:
I believe Trump loves trolling the media. It is hilarious how they react to every lil thing he says. I think a lot of media will be downsizing once Trump is out of office. Who are they going to talk about 24/7??
If Trump losing the presidency leads to a decrease in talking head media, that's just icing on the cake.
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On November 07 2020 05:57 pmh wrote:
As it stands now i think GA will still go to trump btw. Appearently 9k military ballots still outstanding and those will probably favor Trump quiet heavily. PA is starting to look like safe though which would be enough. AZ will hold as well i am inclined to think now.
From what I understand nowhere near 9K votes will actually be received back.
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On November 07 2020 05:58 Zerothegreat wrote:
I believe Trump loves trolling the media. It is hilarious how they react to every lil thing he says. I think a lot of media will be downsizing once Trump is out of office. Who are they going to talk about 24/7?? the same things they talked about before Trump?
The 24/7 news media existed before Trump and will exist after.
It will just be reporting a little bit less crazy.
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On November 07 2020 05:59 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On November 07 2020 05:58 Zerothegreat wrote:
I believe Trump loves trolling the media. It is hilarious how they react to every lil thing he says. I think a lot of media will be downsizing once Trump is out of office. Who are they going to talk about 24/7?? If Trump losing the presidency leads to a decrease in talking head media, that's just icing on the cake.
I dislike the media. Objective journalism is dead. It is the saddest thing. I honestly think majority of people that voted for Biden was just to escape the constant bludgeoning by the media for 4 more years.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Lu7VHdC.png)
