On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I couldn't disagree more. I think the last 5 years have proven that winning on your message is very difficult if the other guy is willing to lie about what their message is.
The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
Jesus what is happening to him? He's basically begging now. No caps anywhere either, dude is really grasping hard. At least before he was somewhat comical if not dangerous to our country, now he's just... well... sad and pathetic. It's like Envy from Fullmetal Alchemist, on the outside he was this massive green indestructible monster, now he's just this squirming little runt.
EDIT: he hasn't used caps in 11 hours. Someone wanna check on him?
He’s fine it’s just the shift and caps key broke from 4 years of abuse
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
So far it seems like Biden lost votes among Cubans due to them believing the GOP advertising which branded Biden as a socialist based on stuff that other Democrats (not necessarily Biden) support like the Green New Deal.
Republicans will always try to brand the Democratic candidate as a radical progressive--it's a matter of how much surface of attack the Democrats give them.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
Isn't it the progressives that are actually gaining seats for the democrats?
Not from what I'm seeing in the House. Don't see progressive candidates flipping any R seats and don't see any outperforming the lean in red districts. But I could not have gotten to them yet.
Of course, there's another element of them outperforming in blue districts and helping up-ticket performance; that's possible, I haven't looked at that yet.
They probably won't be hard flipping places like Kentucky and such with ease, but I'd argue they'll put up stronger performances than a corporate Democrat (presuming the DNC offers the same support they'd offer the corporate Democrat ofcourse.)
Its less about definitely winning and more about starting to become more competitive. You know, make stuff less safe for Republicans, make them start properly fighting for their seats, fewer absolute freebies, etc.
In time I think we'll start seeing cracks appear to really be able to focus on. Starting doing what we did to Amy McGrath but maybe with candidates that it has a mild chance of working on, lol
EDIT: Come on, you guys cant legitimately believe that Republicans are going to stop buying the They're a Socialist lies? No amount of ground can be ceded to earn a Republican vote because the other half of the ticket is going to be a Republican. You'd have to literally start being more to the right than a Republican.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
Isn't it the progressives that are actually gaining seats for the democrats?
Not from what I'm seeing in the House. Don't see progressive candidates flipping any R seats and don't see any outperforming the lean in red districts. But I could not have gotten to them yet.
Of course, there's another element of them outperforming in blue districts and helping up-ticket performance; that's possible, I haven't looked at that yet.
In fact, as I go further, I'd go so far as to say the opposite: more than a few progressive nominees in red districts drastically, drastically underperformed the partisan lean. By like 8 or 10 points.
The exception is Texas. I think Beto did a lot of work there. Though, unfortunately, the progressive candidates ultimately lost.
Doubtless, much of this is traceable to lack of infrastructural support from the DNC and incumbency advantage for some of the R's in question. But the data from these experiments will probably be weaponized against a left shift.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic.
We can print money out of thin air to bail out corporations, but we can’t have healthcare? Etc etc
Tbh I’m not even sure you have to bullshit on some issues, just simplify the message and its emotional core.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic.
We can print money out of thin air to bail out corporations, but we can’t have healthcare? Etc etc
Tbh I’m not even sure you have to bullshit on some issues, just simplify the message and its emotional core.
dumb it down basically, make even the dumbest voter at least be able to communicate what you platform might be. If that dont understand the basics, they won't care for the semantics that voters like us will actually pay attention to. The goal is to just get them minimally informed, then they'll do more research on their own.
Yeah the point is that Dems obsess over explication at the cost of success. From the center to the leftward reaches of the party, Dems are always trying to justify this, that, or the other thing. Meanwhile, Republicans don't explain anything and instead lean heavily on quotidian sentiments like kitchen table economics, with relatively great success. Dems need to seize on that success for their own ends.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic.
Yeah, lets make Idiocracy a documentary. Race to the bottom, here we come!
Meanwhile, Republicans don't explain anything and instead lean heavily on quotidian sentiments like kitchen table economics, with relatively great success.
They don't need to, because the average Trump voter doesn't give a shit why brown people are banned to come into the country.
It's much different to, for example, do the opposite based on populism.
In fact, the entire argument is retarded considering Trump LOST the election, proving that it doesn't work.
On November 07 2020 04:05 Nyxisto wrote: If the Dems should have learned one thing from this election then it is that they need to stop the progressive shift. The loss of Hispanic and Latino voters in Florida is a total disaster, and imagine what would have happened if some hardcore Green New Deal type candidate had run in Pennsylvania. Given the results now it looks like pretty much anyone but Klobuchar maybe would have gotten rolled in this election.
I keep hearing people say that Progressives are bad cause Florida but I do have to point this out
You DO know that Biden DID NOT WIN FLORIDA, right?
The Conservative Democrat lost that Hispanic Latino Florida voter.
Biden's not a conservative democrat. He ran as left, if not to the left of Clinton and evidently all the "he's a socialist" smears by Trump sticked with the Cuban vote. If the party hadn't shifted so far during the primary in particular, his lying wouldn't have been able to stick that hard.
On November 07 2020 04:14 KwarK wrote: The Democrats need to learn to bullshit. They need to search the party for their best Sam Elliot impersonator and then have him tell everyone that every problem has a simple answer but that the Republicans are too in the pocket of big business to do it. Wars can't be won because Lockheed. Healthcare is expensive because of insurance companies. Food is expensive because of Monsanto. You lost your job at the factory because the vulture capitalists moved the plant to Mexico. Wages are down because businesses keep hiring immigrants illegally. Just commit to building that narrative. Then, after you win, don't do anything.
I don't see this rhetoric work at all with moderate Americans, in particular minorities. Progressive rhetoric is popular with the woke college educated white crowd, Trump's gains among minorities in general a lot of which apparently trust the GOP on economic issues, shows that you need to ditch that stuff.
It's not about rhetoric swaying people to left wing ideology, it's about insisting that every problem is the blame of a cabal of corrupt rich corporate fatcats and that only he will stop them because the other side work for the fatcats. Pure populism. Trump connected with people because people are idiots and so is he. When he says that the US gov should stop sending China a $300b check for the balance of trade deficit that seems like a good idea to idiots. The fact that no such check exists is irrelevant. The Democrats need to lean into the idiot demographic.
We can print money out of thin air to bail out corporations, but we can’t have healthcare? Etc etc
Tbh I’m not even sure you have to bullshit on some issues, just simplify the message and its emotional core.
People are idiots, this is the solution to selling left wing ideals.
I'm an idiot. The primary difference between me and GH as people on the left is that GH knows things about theory, whereas I am a boob who is basically driven by the state of my life and the way I feel about the world around me that causes it.
Americans as a whole are not like GH imo, they're closer to me.
Speak dumb, speak clear, make good sense, convince dumbs like me, work many good
The Democrats are persistently ceding ground to the GOP on hearts and minds issues and if they want a viable future they need to learn from Republicans on PR and framing a message. Ultimately the electorate in most countries prioritize whether you can help them put food on the table, keep their jobs, pay the bills and safeguard them from threats. An economic populism message might help Biden right now honestly, because I don't think COVID, Trump's corruption and ineptitude or environmental collapse was as much of a critical election issue as Democrats believed. If they need to get down in the mud, they should do it. Sorry Michelle Obama, but going high as they go low isn't working.
EPT
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