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On May 21 2020 08:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:12 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 08:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. The question was always what marginal information does handshaking give you over a hypothetical alternative greeting done without contact. That’s why the proposed advantages so far have been along the lines of shaking their hand then immediately sniffing yours to get a smell of them and discreetly taking their body temperature so you can offer them a jacket (literally the proposed advantages so far). Comparing it to no information at all is missing the point. It’s about as useful as the study Kellogg’s did where they discovered that Kellogg’s cereal led to a significant increase in concentration and alertness in children (compared to not feeding them at all). As for an alternative to a handshake, I think bowing and touching foreheads can be a very powerful gesture that creates contact and in most cases should yield less germs while also giving the person the ability to sense the temperature of the other person. So instead of a high five it's a high fore? + Show Spoiler + Zing! Nailed it. Thank you, thank you  Do people actually touch foreheads when they bow? I would worry that I would accidentally smack someone in the head with my head, since we can't actually see how close our heads are from each other as we bow down.
This seems like very fertile ground for people with aggressive handshakes.
"No! Last time Chad came over he nearly knocked out 3 people and gave Glen a concussion introducing himself!"
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Bisutopia19298 Posts
They do. It's all about how confidently can you bring your head in to contact with theirs, but leave with just a gentle touch occuring. It's quite an art form. Though with women and small children it's more of a lingering touch to show endearment.
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On May 21 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:12 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 08:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. The question was always what marginal information does handshaking give you over a hypothetical alternative greeting done without contact. That’s why the proposed advantages so far have been along the lines of shaking their hand then immediately sniffing yours to get a smell of them and discreetly taking their body temperature so you can offer them a jacket (literally the proposed advantages so far). Comparing it to no information at all is missing the point. It’s about as useful as the study Kellogg’s did where they discovered that Kellogg’s cereal led to a significant increase in concentration and alertness in children (compared to not feeding them at all). As for an alternative to a handshake, I think bowing and touching foreheads can be a very powerful gesture that creates contact and in most cases should yield less germs while also giving the person the ability to sense the temperature of the other person. So instead of a high five it's a high fore? + Show Spoiler + Zing! Nailed it. Thank you, thank you Do people actually touch foreheads when they bow? I would worry that I would accidentally smack someone in the head with my head, since we can't actually see how close our heads are from each other as we bow down. This seems like very fertile ground for people with aggressive handshakes. "No! Last time Chad came over he nearly knocked out 3 people and gave Glen a concussion introducing himself!"
Two alpha males stare at each other from across the room, and lower their heads as they assume the position. They start to kick their feet backwards off the ground, like bulls preparing to charge. It may seem odd and unnecessary, but in the year 2030, this game of chicken is how Americans say hello.
On May 21 2020 08:29 BisuDagger wrote:
They do. It's all about how confidently can you bring your head in to contact with theirs, but leave with just a gentle touch occuring. It's quite an art form. Though with women and small children it's more of a lingering touch to show endearment.
That's very interesting to me... I've bowed in deference before, but from a safe enough distance where there was no physical contact. I guess both touching and not touching can be seen as respectful, given the context and the individuals.
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On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 04:39 ChristianS wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. It’s interesting you bring up Sherlock Holmes because I’ve partially written and deleted a post a couple times on this very subject. I think stuff like Sherlock Holmes or House, M.D. is emblematic of (and partially responsible for popularizing) a false conception of intelligence. Sherlock typically looks at a situation in which other competent people think “these facts are insufficient to determine what happened,” and says something like “this mud pattern on the victim’s calf rubbed off from the killer’s pant leg is produced by a certain kind of tractor. The killer had been on Mr. Johnson’s farm 24 hours prior to the killing!” In other words, intelligent people find certainty where others see uncertainty. In my experience it is usually the opposite. Competent people look at a set of facts and say “this is what happened,” where a more intelligent person would say “perhaps that’s the most likely scenario, but these other possibilities are also worth exploring.” In other words, intelligent people see the uncertainty of situations others falsely think are certain. Idiots aren’t idiots because they’re uncertain about everything, they’re idiots because they’re so damn certain of everything, even when (especially when?) they’re wrong. Regarding handshakes specifically: a competent person might shake a possible hire’s hand and think “hmm, kinda weak grip. I think they lack confidence/assertiveness.” And they might think that’s a clever inference. But perhaps, like Mohdoo, they think an overly tight grip conveys insecurity, and didn’t want to come across as having a fragile ego. Or maybe they have an RSI. Or maybe they’re left-handed. The no-nonsense hiring manager who says proudly “I can tell everything I need to about a man from a handshake” thinks he’s showing how smart he is, when really he’s showing his ignorance. Edit: syntax I actually agree with what you are saying too and almost didn't make my original post. I think it's fair to believe that some people really can gain knowledge from a hand shake, but it is also rational to say any conclusion garnered from a handshake is ignoring the whole story. Maybe it's best to say that a handshake is an great way to form an hypothesis of a person, and from there everything you do is an attempt to disprove your hypothesis.
First impressions are first impressions and first impressions do no more than to confirm the biases of the person who is taking that impression. The information imparted is essentially random noise. A few militaries used psych evaluations in team building excercises back when it was all the rage to determine who will be best fit for leadership postions and the like and predict those who did best in the evaluations will be promoted furthest, and then came back years later for confirmation and found out it was all a load of bollocks. So it is with handshakes; they tell you nothing beyond perhaps handshaker's ability to fit with local cultural norms. You will tell more about a person from asking their attitude towards handshaking, than shaking their hands.
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On May 21 2020 08:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2020 08:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:12 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 08:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. The question was always what marginal information does handshaking give you over a hypothetical alternative greeting done without contact. That’s why the proposed advantages so far have been along the lines of shaking their hand then immediately sniffing yours to get a smell of them and discreetly taking their body temperature so you can offer them a jacket (literally the proposed advantages so far). Comparing it to no information at all is missing the point. It’s about as useful as the study Kellogg’s did where they discovered that Kellogg’s cereal led to a significant increase in concentration and alertness in children (compared to not feeding them at all). As for an alternative to a handshake, I think bowing and touching foreheads can be a very powerful gesture that creates contact and in most cases should yield less germs while also giving the person the ability to sense the temperature of the other person. So instead of a high five it's a high fore? + Show Spoiler + Zing! Nailed it. Thank you, thank you Do people actually touch foreheads when they bow? I would worry that I would accidentally smack someone in the head with my head, since we can't actually see how close our heads are from each other as we bow down. This seems like very fertile ground for people with aggressive handshakes. "No! Last time Chad came over he nearly knocked out 3 people and gave Glen a concussion introducing himself!" Two alpha males stare at each other from across the room, and lower their heads as they assume the position. They start to kick their feet backwards off the ground, like bulls preparing to charge. It may seem odd and unnecessary, but in the year 2030, this game of chicken is how Americans say hello. Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:29 BisuDagger wrote:
They do. It's all about how confidently can you bring your head in to contact with theirs, but leave with just a gentle touch occuring. It's quite an art form. Though with women and small children it's more of a lingering touch to show endearment. That's very interesting to me... I've bowed in deference before, but from a safe enough distance where there was no physical contact. I guess both touching and not touching can be seen as respectful, given the context and the individuals.
I've got nothing to add but just wanted to say that the first part of your post here made me laugh
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On May 22 2020 21:31 Dangermousecatdog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 04:39 ChristianS wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. It’s interesting you bring up Sherlock Holmes because I’ve partially written and deleted a post a couple times on this very subject. I think stuff like Sherlock Holmes or House, M.D. is emblematic of (and partially responsible for popularizing) a false conception of intelligence. Sherlock typically looks at a situation in which other competent people think “these facts are insufficient to determine what happened,” and says something like “this mud pattern on the victim’s calf rubbed off from the killer’s pant leg is produced by a certain kind of tractor. The killer had been on Mr. Johnson’s farm 24 hours prior to the killing!” In other words, intelligent people find certainty where others see uncertainty. In my experience it is usually the opposite. Competent people look at a set of facts and say “this is what happened,” where a more intelligent person would say “perhaps that’s the most likely scenario, but these other possibilities are also worth exploring.” In other words, intelligent people see the uncertainty of situations others falsely think are certain. Idiots aren’t idiots because they’re uncertain about everything, they’re idiots because they’re so damn certain of everything, even when (especially when?) they’re wrong. Regarding handshakes specifically: a competent person might shake a possible hire’s hand and think “hmm, kinda weak grip. I think they lack confidence/assertiveness.” And they might think that’s a clever inference. But perhaps, like Mohdoo, they think an overly tight grip conveys insecurity, and didn’t want to come across as having a fragile ego. Or maybe they have an RSI. Or maybe they’re left-handed. The no-nonsense hiring manager who says proudly “I can tell everything I need to about a man from a handshake” thinks he’s showing how smart he is, when really he’s showing his ignorance. Edit: syntax I actually agree with what you are saying too and almost didn't make my original post. I think it's fair to believe that some people really can gain knowledge from a hand shake, but it is also rational to say any conclusion garnered from a handshake is ignoring the whole story. Maybe it's best to say that a handshake is an great way to form an hypothesis of a person, and from there everything you do is an attempt to disprove your hypothesis. First impressions are first impressions and first impressions do no more than to confirm the biases of the person who is taking that impression. The information imparted is essentially random noise. A few militaries used psych evaluations in team building excercises back when it was all the rage to determine who will be best fit for leadership postions and the like and predict those who did best in the evaluations will be promoted furthest, and then came back years later for confirmation and found out it was all a load of bollocks. So it is with handshakes; they tell you nothing beyond perhaps handshaker's ability to fit with local cultural norms. You will tell more about a person from asking their attitude towards handshaking, than shaking their hands.
I've done enough handshakes in professional contexts to know that I really don't learn anything about people from the experience. That's not a thing. When people talk about what you can learn from a handshake it reminds me 100% of archaic dating "advice" that tries to give you surefire ways of interpreting vague signals that really don't necessarily mean anything. I never found any of this social wizardry to be useful, in fact it was always the opposite. As soon as I stopped caring about what things are "supposed" to mean, I started getting much more useful information in my own way.
I've never taken a handshake to indicate anything other than a willingness/ability to conform to the accepted professional environment.
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I've done enough handshakes in professional contexts to know that I really don't learn anything about people from the experience. That's not a thing. When people talk about what you can learn from a handshake it reminds me 100% of archaic dating "advice" that tries to give you surefire ways of interpreting vague signals that really don't necessarily mean anything. I never found any of this social wizardry to be useful, in fact it was always the opposite. As soon as I stopped caring about what things are "supposed" to mean, I started getting much more useful information in my own way.
I've never taken a handshake to indicate anything other than a willingness/ability to conform to the accepted professional environment.
That is because you don't know how to interpret it. Fortunately I have a course for only $9.99 that will give you valuable insights into what various handshakes mean. For only $5.00 more I can teach you how to make your handshake exude confidence and leadership. Participants in my course have gone onto become ceos, marketing gurus, and social influencers.
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I have a rough conception of what’s happening in your head when you make some incidental observation about someone (e.g. how they shake your hand) and draw apparently-irrelevant conclusions about them (e.g. their personality, work ethic, intelligence, etc.). It rests on areas of AI that I’m not especially informed on, so someone else here might be able to correct me where I’m fucking it up, but here goes:
Your brain is basically a big neural network. You can train a neural network on a set of observations and associated information with each observation; then you can ask it for an algorithm to take new observations and spit out predicted information about them. So if you meet 1000 people, shake all their hands, and later determine that 500 of them were nice and 500 of them were assholes, you can then shake a new person’s hand and ask your brain “based on the last 1000 handshakes, is this person nice or an asshole?”
The trouble is, the algorithm is a black box. You don’t really know what aspects of the observation are being used or how; you just know you shake a new person’s hand and your brain spits out “nice” or “asshole.” And unless you’re very careful about how you use a neural network, it’s very common for the algorithm predictions to be junk outside the training set because it’s sort of “p-hacking” its algorithm to rely on peculiarities of the training set that don’t generalize to the larger population. Maybe a lot of the people you decided were assholes happened to go to a rival high school, and your brain’s algorithm winds up relying heavily on whether the person is wearing that high school’s colors. Then you go to college and find yourself with an irrational dislike of anybody wearing blue and gold or w/e.
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On May 22 2020 22:28 Aveng3r wrote:Show nested quote +On May 21 2020 08:43 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:26 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 21 2020 08:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:12 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 08:06 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 21 2020 08:02 BisuDagger wrote:On May 21 2020 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 21 2020 03:40 BisuDagger wrote:I believe that handshaking can give information to people who have a heightened sense of awareness or have trained in learning what handshakes indicate. I know Sherlock Holmes is fictional, but there are people out there who share attributes of his intelligence. Holmes often learns a lot about people through handshakes in his stories. I think there is a time and place for handshakes and that we can participate in them as long as we have regard for when it is appropriate or not to issue such a formality. https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2012/03/can-you-learn-to-dissect-peoples-personalitie/https://www.bakadesuyo.com/2011/04/what-can-we-tell-about-someones-personality-f/We examined whether handshakes improved the accuracy with which participants judged a set of targets. Handshakes are interpersonally coordinated behaviors that require motivation and practice to perform well. Therefore conscientiousness may predict how well handshakes are executed. If so, a person’s conscientiousness may be more accurately perceived at zero-acquaintance through a handshake. Individual female and male participants rated the personality of five, same-gender targets after each had introduced herself or himself. Half of the targets offered and shook hands with the participant as part of the introduction, half did not. Extraversion was judged most accurately, regardless of handshake condition. Handshaking moderated impression accuracy of conscientiousness, especially between men, which may explain the importance business professionals place on face-to-face interviews. The question was always what marginal information does handshaking give you over a hypothetical alternative greeting done without contact. That’s why the proposed advantages so far have been along the lines of shaking their hand then immediately sniffing yours to get a smell of them and discreetly taking their body temperature so you can offer them a jacket (literally the proposed advantages so far). Comparing it to no information at all is missing the point. It’s about as useful as the study Kellogg’s did where they discovered that Kellogg’s cereal led to a significant increase in concentration and alertness in children (compared to not feeding them at all). As for an alternative to a handshake, I think bowing and touching foreheads can be a very powerful gesture that creates contact and in most cases should yield less germs while also giving the person the ability to sense the temperature of the other person. So instead of a high five it's a high fore? + Show Spoiler + Zing! Nailed it. Thank you, thank you Do people actually touch foreheads when they bow? I would worry that I would accidentally smack someone in the head with my head, since we can't actually see how close our heads are from each other as we bow down. This seems like very fertile ground for people with aggressive handshakes. "No! Last time Chad came over he nearly knocked out 3 people and gave Glen a concussion introducing himself!" Two alpha males stare at each other from across the room, and lower their heads as they assume the position. They start to kick their feet backwards off the ground, like bulls preparing to charge. It may seem odd and unnecessary, but in the year 2030, this game of chicken is how Americans say hello. On May 21 2020 08:29 BisuDagger wrote:
They do. It's all about how confidently can you bring your head in to contact with theirs, but leave with just a gentle touch occuring. It's quite an art form. Though with women and small children it's more of a lingering touch to show endearment. That's very interesting to me... I've bowed in deference before, but from a safe enough distance where there was no physical contact. I guess both touching and not touching can be seen as respectful, given the context and the individuals. I've got nothing to add but just wanted to say that the first part of your post here made me laugh
Thank you
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Handshakes are sneaking back into my life, but so far only with people I know. It is a very nice way to acknowledge the presence of others, like a little "dance" if you will. Nothing sexual, just a gentle contact and movement. They simply work.
I am fairly confident they are here to stay.
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EPT
