EPT-poor data collection?
-mislead other nations for w/e reason
I sincerely hope it’s the former
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Emnjay808
United States10656 Posts
-poor data collection? -mislead other nations for w/e reason I sincerely hope it’s the former | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15690 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:42 Emnjay808 wrote: What are the main reasons for countries to hide numbers? -poor data collection? -mislead other nations for w/e reason I sincerely hope it’s the former For China it is that they, desperately, more than anything, want to appear as though they are a legitimate world power rather than just a country with an insane amount of people. User was warned for this post. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23245 Posts
Unfortunately the social distancing rules have been largely ineffective at stemming the spread in long-term care facilities (basically nursing homes). Over 100 have reported positive tests despite ongoing reports of limited testing availability (healthy people with slight symptoms are generally discouraged from seeking testing and instead self-isolating). COVID-19 is spreading at an increasing rate in Washington and has reached 108 long-term care facilities that house those who appear most vulnerable to the disease, State Health Officer Kathy Lofy told reporters Tuesday. ... Several Eastern Washington communities have reported limited numbers of testing kits to offer residents, including in Spokane County, where the drive-thru screening initially had 1,000 test kits and is now down to less than 200. Testing is vital, especially in long-term care facilities with confirmed cases, because COVID-19 has disproportionately impacted people over the age of 60 in Washington, with 93% of deaths occurring in seniors. Lofy said the virus spreading in long-term care facilities is “very concerning” due to higher risk for older people to develop severe symptoms with COVID-19. She said she has heard some facilities have high “attack rates” where more than half of a facility gets infected. “Those high attack rates highlight the fact that nobody has immunity, and it’s easy to spread within facilities,” she said. Models from the University of Washington Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation, which state officials are watching closely, predict the peak capacity and resource use at hospitals will be on April 18 in Washington. www.spokesman.com | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:48 Mohdoo wrote: For China it is that they, desperately, more than anything, want to appear as though they are a legitimate world power rather than just a country with an insane amount of people. China had a complete lock down for well over a month tho (going as far as locking people in their homes), the measures they took were more extreme than any other country. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18004 Posts
On April 01 2020 17:45 Manit0u wrote: I started worrying about this almost immediately and told my wife to buy extra stuff when she's shopping in Januray and insisted on it throughout February. She laughed at me then, she's not laughing now. Also, businesses are adjusting. The company I'm working for in Germany is implementing the reduced journey policy for the next 3 months. They're not working on fridays and get 20% salary cut (of which 60% will be covered by the government so it's not that bad). It was a decision between this and firing a bunch of people. I like how they approach it, knowing we're all in this together and we're all taking a hit so we can get through it together. My company is doing this exact thing. Announced it yesterday. We're in tourism (as I said at the start of this thread somewhere), so hopefully this allows us to keep going until people can start travelling again. If it takes too long, I might just have to start job hunting for something, though. | ||
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Manit0u
Poland17268 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:07 Lmui wrote: If you think that's bad, imagine if this hasn't blown over in the states where they have 4+ hour long lines to vote. Imagine how many kilometers you need to walk to reach the end of the line if you need to maintain socially appropriate distance between each voter. The thing is, they're contradicting the constitution (again). They've imposed curfews, restricted travel etc. and the constitution says you can only do that if you have declared a state of emergency (and they have not, because while state of emergency is in effect you can't hold elections). It's really fucked up. Basically the quarantine and social distancing they're imposing are pretty much illegal under the current circumstances. | ||
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Sharkies
Hong Kong92 Posts
On April 02 2020 07:19 TT1 wrote: China had a complete lock down for well over a month tho (going as far as locking people in their homes), the measures they took were more extreme than any other country. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogp3Px30qX0 We've tackled this issue multiple times in this thread already. As TT1 points out, it seems like North America and Europe were caught off guard because Asia (China, Singapore, South Korea etc.) took drastic measures very early so they were able to contain the virus and make it look like it wasn't a big threat. As a result, the response from rest of world has been far too slow as they underestimated the virus. To the extent numbers are not accurate in countries, I'm sorry but this applies in EVERY country at the moment. Not sure how many people here will have access to Financial Times, but I link an article from today in any event: https://www.ft.com/content/44f4301e-b5f3-4434-a086-9a822ea72a71. There are articles like this covering many other countries in North America and Europe if you did any level of research. "Sourced from death certificates, official figures for the period up to March 20 showed that 210 people died in England and Wales with Covid-19 mentioned by a doctor on the death certificate, compared with 170 recorded up to that date in hospitals, according to the Office for National Statistics. The 23.5 per cent gap between the two figures would increase “noticeably” in the days ahead, according to Nick Stripe, head of life events at the ONS, because with the current movement restrictions it would take longer than usual for people to notify register offices of deaths. Only roughly half of the deaths on March 20 would have been notified to the statistics agency by five days later, for example, Mr Stripe said. Mr Stripe stressed, however, that the discrepancy did not suggest any cover-up of deaths from coronavirus, but just that many people had died in the community rather than in hospital, where the daily government counts are taken." In summary, yes all countries at the moment cannot be reporting accurately - there are more important things to be doing. If you somehow think China is covering this up any more than any other nation, that is just your personal bias. You are of course entitled to your opinion like everyone else, but it is just not a very informed opinion. | ||
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stilt
France2749 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:48 Mohdoo wrote: For China it is that they, desperately, more than anything, want to appear as though they are a legitimate world power rather than just a country with an insane amount of people. It's crazy your rant against china doesn't get warning while it's obviously politically motivated. The source which implied that China lied with the 400 000 000 urns is Radio Free Asia directly funded by the american congress, what a joke, would not be the first time USA crafts international lies. And China cannot be reduced by its demography, it is a major power (which would surclass usa during this century hopefully) and a country with a culture way deeper than Disney, your ignorance and contempt for stuffs you don't understand is alarming. User was warned for this post. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Bagration
United States18282 Posts
On April 02 2020 07:18 GreenHorizons wrote: Washington has been touted recently for bending the curve and the most recent modeling points to us potentially peaking in mid April. Unfortunately the social distancing rules have been largely ineffective at stemming the spread in long-term care facilities (basically nursing homes). Over 100 have reported positive tests despite ongoing reports of limited testing availability (healthy people with slight symptoms are generally discouraged from seeking testing and instead self-isolating). www.spokesman.com My impression is that Gov. Inslee has done a decent job of crisis management - granted I'm not a PNW resident. Would locals feel the same way about his leadership? | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23245 Posts
On April 02 2020 09:24 Bagration wrote: My impression is that Gov. Inslee has done a decent job of crisis management - granted I'm not a PNW resident. Would locals feel the same way about his leadership? Definitely put him in the top 5 in the US. Was a little late to react generally but ahead of pretty much everywhere. Feel like he's been more straightforward than most too. Nurse friends have been telling me they are already rationing (posted a story before) supplies so not great there, but comparable to the country afaik. There's also the kinda weird thing similar to what Mani referenced for his place where the call to stay indoors exists in a quasi-legal space where it is unclear whether they actually have any authority to enforce it but haven't really needed to. Though they should probably crack down on walmarts since compared to the Safeway I went to recently it is night and day when it comes to both customer and worker safety. Generally though I think he's getting good reviews (especially juxtaposed to Trump or what is happening in NY whoever's fault it is), that said, he's been lackluster imo regarding dealing with the housing situation but there's another thread for that. | ||
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virpi
Germany3598 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:19 JimmiC wrote: We really need countries to start reporting this stuff both honestly and consistently so we can figure out what is the best way forward. That would be reasonable, but let's be honest: It won't happen. The president of Belarus refuses to accept that the virus even poses any danger. Meanwhile, Orban has led Hungary into authoritarianism successfully. China most definitely has fiddled with the numbers, but we won't know for sure. Oh yeah, and there's that guy in Brazil who tries his best at impersonating the dictator of Belarus. The fun part: Bolsonaro and Orban have been voted to power by their own people. Let's face it: People tend to do dumb things. We will get through this crisis, some countries will do better than others. Will that change anything in the big picture? I highly doubt it. Europe fails to work together yet again, which might lead into a downward spiral for the EU, if the economy dips too hard. The Trump administration casually states that thousands of dead people are fine. Even though I think it's important to be as honest as possible during a crisis, Trump's statements sound more like "Well, it's bad, but it's not my fault. Vote for me." Yeah. I'm not a fan of the Merkel administration, but until now, Germany actually has done a decent job. Some things happened too late, but it could have been MUCH worse. But we're still at the beginning of the whole thing, so let's wait and see. | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
https://www.scmp.com/tech/apps-social/article/3064574/beijing-rolls-out-colour-coded-qr-system-coronavirus-tracking But yea, they've also openly admitted that they understated the number of cases (from 15x to 40x). Same could be said about every country tho. It doesn't take away from the strict quarantine measures that they've taken to keep their population safe. I'd rather have my government take control and execute a proper plan rather than leaving everyone in limbo. | ||
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Vivax
21991 Posts
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/wS3syfx.png) Current sitrep. Notice something odd here? Italy has more confirmed cases than China by now. Seems legit?Not. Imo either China underreports cases/doesn't test or overreports deaths. Think of someone who got hospitalized for another disease and gets the virus in the hospital and dies, what do you report? Big difference between Germany and Italy in the amount of deaths, but also Austria. Either more testing in Germany, or crappy healthcare + lack of respirators in Italy. And only hospitalized patients get tested probably. Turkey also has decent stats after they implemented a less insane policy and only barred 60+ form leaving their homes. How to lower the CFR without treatment? Test more. Test everything. Suddenly you have a load of positives who maybe barely noticed. Data supports that and also supports that most of this is overblown. I still don't get the logic of locking down everyone. If you're 60+ or have respiratory problems from the get go, act accordingly. How can you say that everyone has to be shut in because 'think of the loved ones in that group'? I have relatives in that group, doesn't mean these draconian measures are sane or cause less damage to lives than the virus, but I know that they are being careful regardless of what the government prescribes. If you work with elderly patients, wear protective gear. Should be a given or the employer is stupid. If you are at risk, act responsibly. Sure, it isn't quite the same as not simply crossing a road blindfolded, you'd need to social distance, on your own, because it's your life at stake, and nobody can protect you from actions that can harm you that you chose to take, but that seems to be the expectation here. At some point you got to go out anyway to buy something, do you think that this lockdown eliminated the risk you would get the disease? Maybe someone, staff or customer, coughed around your groceries somewhere, you open a contaminated package, scratch your eye or poke your nose and there it is. But hey, everyone is in lockdown and that's supposed to keep you safe. Besides there's going to be people with you in the store. It just shocks me how most are willing to give away a big portion of control over their lives, and I doubt that they are going to be effective in making this disease go away for good in the long term like the WHO wants. Too many countries with different diligence in tackling it. What it will make go away for sure is the living standards you were used to. But at least we will have a virus to be mad at. + Show Spoiler + I don't even know why someone talks about culling and shit for a disease that really isn't that deadly. But I think overpopulation guys are full of shit. It entirely depends on the living standards and second, if you support such things, why don't you lead by example by jogging naked in the jungle of the Republic of the Congo. Same as warmongers on the internet, they should just get drafted the moment they hit post. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28673 Posts
On April 02 2020 06:42 Emnjay808 wrote: What are the main reasons for countries to hide numbers? -poor data collection? -mislead other nations for w/e reason I sincerely hope it’s the former Mislead their own population.. The fewer deaths, the better of a job the government is doing handling the crisis. If you are one of the countries with the lowest mortality rate, it's not a far stretch to think that your government must have done a good job handling it and taking the appropriate actions. Likewise countries where the death rates spike harder than elsewhere leaves us with an impression that those countries must have done a poor job responding to initial data. (Italy gets a pass, cause they were the first, but for all other european countries, amount of people who die from this will be used as an indicator of whether governments did an adequate job responding to this, or not. ) | ||
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Sharkies
Hong Kong92 Posts
On April 02 2020 09:18 JimmiC wrote: China's history of lying including on this exact pandemic, says otherwise. Along with all the articles about it, some I have already posted, they are not alone, they are in a group with a bunch of other countries purposely miss-reporting numbers. Which is different from the countries which simply cannot get enough tests done. You my friend are the one with the bias. Yes it is a super power, and yes it has deep culture. What is sad is that the current authoritarian government is robbing them of that culture, while actively destroying other parts of it it Uighar and Tibet. People who speak positively of the Chinese government are drinking some strong propaganda. They are all about enriching themselves at the cost of their own people. You don't need to colonize when you can just abuse your own people as free labour while you and your other despots get wildly rich. And then since they have to keep the "honor" of China above the people they are misreporting data which in impeding the rest of the world from coming to the correct conclusion quickly. Thank god that one doctor had the bravery to sacrifice himself for all of us, Dr. Li Wenliang is a true hero and it is disgusting that his government arrested him for " spreading rumors". https://globalnews.ca/news/6705990/coronavirus-chinese-doctor-death-report/ And it is embarrassing that even after shit like this people still defend this evil government that does not give two shits about its own people let alone everyone else. And if you are drinking the "China's socialist" koolaid I'm sorry but socialist countries are not run by a few billionaires, in fact if they were actually a socialist countries they would not have any. They are a Capitalism-run-muck dictatorship that the leadership was worried if word got out they might make less money. Edit: in case that link isn't your flavour I'll add a bunch more. https://www.ijidonline.com/article/S1201-9712(20)30111-9/fulltext https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-51403795 https://www.cnn.com/2020/02/08/opinions/coronavirus-bociurkiw/index.html https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li_Wenliang https://www.businessinsider.com/china-coronavirus-whistleblowers-speak-out-vanish-2020-2 https://nationalpost.com/news/world/chinese-government-censor-li-wenliang-dead-weibo-wechat-coronavirus If you think that China has a monopoly on a history of lying, then I can only say good luck to you and your world view. We can both accuse each other of bias, but it boils down to: - you think China is somehow worse than other countries (something which Western media tries very hard to push, except that Western media changes their target over the years (Koreans, Vietnamese, USSR, Middle East, now China) - I happen to think that no government is particularly reliable. The world is driven by interests, and at the political level it is always going to be Machiavellian (particularly between the most powerful nations). To think that one country is "worse" than any other is naive. You have linked a number of articles, but I invite you to go to Factcheck and you will see that the lies coming out of US politicians is hardly limited to "reporting lower numbers due to a lack of tests". I don't blame them for this, at least not any more than I blame any country/authority. The only thing I blame are people who are naive enough to believe one side or another. User was warned for this post. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6231 Posts
On April 02 2020 10:07 Sharkies wrote: If you think that China has a monopoly on a history of lying, then I can only say good luck to you and your world view. Nobody, at any stage, has ever said this. This is a strawman that is constantly deployed and it is very tiresome. It is possible for thing A to be bad, and also for thing B to be bad. It is possible to discuss the badness of thing A, while acknowledging the badness of thing B. I cannot believe how hard this seems to be to understand. | ||
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Sharkies
Hong Kong92 Posts
On April 02 2020 10:18 Belisarius wrote: Nobody, at any stage, has ever said this. This is a strawman that is constantly deployed and it is very tiresome. It is possible for thing A to be bad, and also for thing B to be bad. It is possible to discuss the badness of thing A, while acknowledging the badness of thing B. I cannot believe how hard this seems to be to understand. So if the position being taken is "China has a history of lying, like most powerful nations", I'm fine with that statement. That's pretty much the gist of my whole post. Perhaps you stopped after the first sentence in my post? | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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