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Northern Ireland26727 Posts
On December 03 2022 07:20 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2022 06:39 WombaT wrote:On December 02 2022 20:11 BlackJack wrote:https://www.science.org/content/article/heart-risks-data-gaps-fuel-debate-covid-19-boosters-young-peopleIs an actually decent article about the debate regarding risk/benefit and recommending boosters for young people. COVID-19 vaccines do have a rare but worrisome cardiac side effect. Myocarditis, an inflammation of the heart muscle that can cause chest pain and shortness of breath, has disproportionately struck older boys and young men who received the shots. Only one out of several thousand in those age groups is affected, and most quickly feel better. A tiny number of deaths have been tentatively linked to vaccine myocarditis around the world. But several new studies suggest the heart muscle can take months to heal, and some scientists worry about what this means for patients long term. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) has ordered vaccine makers Pfizer and Moderna to conduct a raft of studies to assess these risks.
As they parse emerging data and fret over knowledge gaps, scientists and doctors are divided over whether such concerns should influence vaccine recommendations, especially now that a new COVID-19 wave is looming and revamped boosters are hitting the scene. Nearly all urge vaccinating young people with the first two vaccine doses, but the case for boosters is more complicated. A key problem is that their benefits are unknown for the age group at highest risk of myocarditis, who are at lower risk of severe COVID-19 and other complications than older adults.
“I’m a vaccine advocate, I would still vaccinate children,” says Jane Newburger, a pediatric cardiologist at Boston Children’s Hospital who has cared for and studied postvaccine myocarditis patients. But Michael Portman, a pediatric cardiologist at Seattle Children’s Hospital who’s also studying patients, says he would hesitate to recommend boosters to healthy teens. “I don’t want to cause panic,” Portman says—but he craves more clarity on the risk-benefit ratio. Countries are divided as well: In Switzerland, Germany, and Denmark, the new bivalent boosters are recommended mainly for older adults and vulnerable younger ones. In the United States, in contrast, CDC now recommends that everyone age 5 and up, regardless of health history, get boosted. Maybe it's the internet that causes people to be so polarized or maybe it's because the moderate voices got bored of this thread but I simply don't understand why we can't have a sensible and nuanced debate. Then you can get sensible solutions like the Scandinavian countries recommending pfizer vaccines for adolescents instead of Moderna because it's a weaker dose and less likely to cause myocarditis. It seems like the majority in this thread want to fall into the camp of either 'vaccines are harmful and causing young people to drop dead', or 'vaccines have no adverse risks at all and people telling you they do are anti-vaxxers.' Despite pretty good evidence that both are untrue, saying the former will get you banned and saying the latter will get you a chorus of consenters. User was warned for this post Or maybe it’s anti-vaxxers incredibly over-egging their arguments to the extent that a mere mention of one similar argument elicits a negative reaction. Which isn’t how it should be, but hey we’re all humans and subject to human fallibilities. It’s something I find difficult, albeit I think I can eventually decouple. It does take an effort though. You seem to discount the effect of years of listening to complete bullshit and how it may affect one’s perception. As per this specific point I don’t know. You and Magic seem to have quite divergent opinions. Yes I agree with you. It is hard for people to decouple, especially when dealing with scary situations like a potentially life threatening virus. Also I don’t think Magic and I have that divergent of opinions. The biggest one that we frequently bicker over is the myocarditis thing. His stance (and I think I’m getting this correctly) is that the mRNA vaccines don’t have the risk of causing myocarditis and I have the stance that the risk exists but it is very small. There’s not much ground between zero and very rare when you think about it. We both agree that you’re more likely to get myocarditis from COVID than from the vaccines (although I’d add the disclaimer that this might not be true for men under 40 that got the Moderna vaccine).
I just don’t know at this point, really.
Anti-vaxxers want to incredibly overstate risks. Many vaccine proponents want to understate. I’ve lost the wherewithal to properly assess such things. kinda worn down by years of fractious nonsense.
A certain degree of nuance does appear to be lost in the wind.
If a certain vaccine, with a certain cohort is perhaps failing the risk /reward test then that’s worth noting. Worth debating.
100% agreed there
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Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe?
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Out of curiosity: anyone who had covid and had a lack of taste/smell can chime in..
How lond did ur taste/smell not recover? it is 5 weeks for me now and I feel (how can I be entirely sure!?) like my smell/taste capacity ist still merely around ~2-5% compared to what it was before
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my taste returned after a month or so. it definitely lingered longer despite all my other symptoms disappearing. my smell came back faster than my taste too
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On December 05 2022 07:00 MaGic~PhiL wrote:
Out of curiosity: anyone who had covid and had a lack of taste/smell can chime in..
How lond did ur taste/smell not recover? it is 5 weeks for me now and I feel (how can I be entirely sure!?) like my smell/taste capacity ist still merely around ~2-5% compared to what it was before
My friend got covid around a month ago, and while all her other symptoms disappeared within a few days, she still doesn't have most of her senses of smell and taste back.
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taste/smell started to come back in about 4-5 days; by day 7 it was fine, like it was before covid.
i took no drugs/medicine for covid and no vaccine, since it was early on when none were available(i had the first/original covid)
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I don't know when I had covid (must've been light or no symptoms), but around spring this year I noticed that some things just taste and smell off. For example toothpaste and peanut butter would feel like burnt toast or vegetables in my mouth, but most things were and still are unchanged. It's almost a year later and it's still not quite right for many things, but it's gradually getting back to what it was, I think? It's hard to tell other than "this tastes/smells different than it's supposed to". Very weird and unpleasant sensation.
It's not the same as losing taste or smell, but apparently it's a thing too
https://www.pressherald.com/2021/09/26/covids-effect-on-smell-can-also-make-some-foods-just-taste-weird/
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On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe?
There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year.
![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/r04tOzI.jpg)
https://mobile.twitter.com/vprasadmdmph/status/1564088565524357120
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/epdf/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970
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On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. + Show Spoiler +The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year.
Your conclusion is wrong. It is correct for the male <40 population but averaged over the whole test set it was equal to the risk after infection while unvaccinated.
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I knew the rate was higher for moderna, as it is a higher mRNA dose than pfizer but that jump from the 1st dose to the second is quite shocking.What are the rates like for boosters?
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On December 07 2022 18:10 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. + Show Spoiler +The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year.
Your conclusion is wrong. It is correct for the male <40 population but averaged over the whole test set it was equal to the risk after infection while unvaccinated.
Yes, thank you. I forgot to specify this is for males < 40
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On December 07 2022 18:24 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:
I knew the rate was higher for moderna, as it is a higher mRNA dose than pfizer but that jump from the 1st dose to the second is quite shocking.What are the rates like for boosters?
Zero. The graphs are in the last link Blackjack provided.
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On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year. https://mobile.twitter.com/vprasadmdmph/status/1564088565524357120https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/epdf/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970
That seems like cherry picking at its finest TBH. If you look at the whole numbers, this chart seems like an outlier more than anything
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Norway28789 Posts
It is cherry picked - D2 Moderna for men younger than 40.
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On December 07 2022 18:59 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year. https://mobile.twitter.com/vprasadmdmph/status/1564088565524357120https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/epdf/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970 That seems like cherry picking at its finest TBH. If you look at the whole numbers, this chart seems like an outlier more than anything
Yes we know that young men in particular are an outlier when it comes to who is effected most by vaccine-induced myocarditis. The point is that a lot of people hold the belief that the vaccines carry no risks and I think that false belief allows them to be flippant when they support policies of mandating vaccines, especially for children, young adults, college students, athletes etc. There's a reason that a lot of health experts are moving in the opposite direction of what a lot of people here have been recommending, e.g. dropping ideas for covid vaccine mandates for schools, banning the moderna vaccine for certain age groups, not recommending the newest boosters for healthy young people, etc.
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On December 07 2022 18:59 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year. https://mobile.twitter.com/vprasadmdmph/status/1564088565524357120https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/epdf/10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.122.059970 That seems like cherry picking at its finest TBH. If you look at the whole numbers, this chart seems like an outlier more than anything
While the sample size is quite lower for this group (~1 mil vs 20 mil for both other vaccines) and confidence interval is quite large (+/- 50%) the effect is still significant. One additional fact is that in contrast to the other vaccines no myocarditis deaths were recorded for people vaccinated with mRNA (probably due to sample size).
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On December 07 2022 11:07 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2022 09:09 raynpelikoneet wrote:
Who cares even anymore? We have had the Covid vaccines for a couple of years, most of people have taken them, almost none of people have died from it.
Is there really a percentage from people who have had side issues that can be argued that the vaccine is not safe? There’s a study that came out not long ago that showed rates of myocarditis after a 2nd shot of Moderna were far greater relatively than rates of myocarditis from COVID even for unvaccinated people. The point is that regardless of what people believe every pharmaceutical has side effects. The reason we still care is because people in this thread are still talking about ideas of mandating vaccines for children I’m assuming year after year.
You are definitely right in that every pharmaceutical has side effects. That should be pretty much a no-brainer for anyone, the question is just how big they are and what number of risk is acceptable.
In Finland that number seems to be 40 / 1 000 000 (increased cases of myocarditis for men <30yr -- apparently this includes both Moderna and Pfizer). Even though there is an increase, i would not consider this something i would oppose a vaccine for, of course everyone is free to consider "how much of a chance" is 0,004% and how deadly or harmful that is in regards of opposing certain things in comparison what is the alternative.
In Finland they don't even offer COVID vaccine for children under 5 yo, and only recommend it for 5-11 yo who have some disease that exposes you to "dangerous COVID". Children from 12 to 17 yo, can take the vaccine if they want to, just like adults. I am quite okay with those guidelines. Of course there are extremes on both ends -- pro-vax or anti-vax, and i don't think either of those ends should be listened to. Some people think one more death in comparison to being vaccinated / not being vaccinated is a world disaster and they think that "strengthens" their case why vaccines should be forced/banned.
I personally most likely wouldn't even have taken the vaccines, unless i knew i had to travel to USA, but personally i don't find either getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated demanding a big fuzz from other people. After all it's your life and you should make the decisions.
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That could mean burden to healthcare, safety of others (including immune compromised) and so on
If this is your reasoning, you will always en up with vaccine mandates, not matter what. Remember we have flu vaccines every year, but they are not distributed nearly as much as the Covid vaccines were. Why?
It has to be about cost/benefit. It is not cheap to hand out millions of dosis, and it has to be seen in relation to other healthcare measures, and you will have to make cuts elsewhere. "What if" and "safety first" isn't enough when deciding which medication should be mandated. Respiratory viruses are a part of our lives, and our bodies are great at fighting them on their own.
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EPT
