EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 665
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Razyda
841 Posts
Another consideration is, that due to number of infections, to probably quite high number of virus naïve people, we may face new variant. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 29 2022 08:24 Razyda wrote: Honestly I think best chance Xi had to drop 0 covid policy was when Omicron became dominant. He could have started some staged return to normality and brag how China did best in the world against covid. Now if he drops it all together, even with Omicron being what it is, just sheer number of infections may cause trouble. Another consideration is, that due to number of infections, to probably quite high number of virus naïve people, we may face new variant. I bet it will cause trouble especially due to how little natural immunity they have in China. But it also seems like they have more than enough capability to do targeted lockdowns and other measures to allow for a slow burn that won't overwhelm their healthcare infrastructure. | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
On November 29 2022 09:12 BlackJack wrote: I honestly don't understand it. Anyone with common sense should have figured out that zero-covid is stupid policy long long ago. I'm guessing there's some other dynamic that I'm not aware of that makes maintaining zero-covid politically advantageous for the CPC. I bet it will cause trouble especially due to how little natural immunity they have in China. But it also seems like they have more than enough capability to do targeted lockdowns and other measures to allow for a slow burn that won't overwhelm their healthcare infrastructure. I don't slow burn will ever cut it mathematically. Let's say you want to slowburn this over some time period (5 years). You would need to infect ~770k people each day (slightly off because the population is going to change, people are born/die and so on). The low thousands or tens of thousands of cases a day right now doesn't even make meaningful dent. You'd also be a bad week away from having millions or tens of millions of infections a day, when it'll just be completely unstoppable. They've stopped cities, but stopping the country for even a couple weeks is just not possible. They either need mass vaccination with something that'll stop them from going to the hospital and let it burn, let it burn and have a million+ die(I would be very suprised if they got away with less than this), or else zero covid. Don't see any other options any more. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 29 2022 09:42 Amui wrote: I don't slow burn will ever cut it mathematically. Let's say you want to slowburn this over some time period (5 years). You would need to infect ~770k people each day (slightly off because the population is going to change, people are born/die and so on). The low thousands or tens of thousands of cases a day right now doesn't even make meaningful dent. You'd also be a bad week away from having millions or tens of millions of infections a day, when it'll just be completely unstoppable. They've stopped cities, but stopping the country for even a couple weeks is just not possible. They either need mass vaccination with something that'll stop them from going to the hospital and let it burn, let it burn and have a million+ die(I would be very suprised if they got away with less than this), or else zero covid. Don't see any other options any more. Obviously it's near-impossible to coordinate a steady rate of new cases/day. But with computer modeling you can get a pretty good idea of how a COVID wave will run its course and when lockdowns should be implemented to preempt severe peaks from happening. Just look at what China has the capability of doing based on some of the videos circulating the internet. They can lockdown giant cities and test 100% of the population. They have teams of drones and people spraying the streets with weird chemicals. It's really quite impressive in an albeit horrific and dystopian sort of way. I'm sure there is some middle ground between zero-covid and maximum-covid that they can navigate through. Also don't forget that Omicron is pretty weak shit compared to Delta. It's mostly sore throat and sniffles for most people, even the unvaccinated and virus-naive people. Deaths are also likely overcounted due to the fact that it's routine policy now to COVID test everyone that gets admitted to a hospital regardless of their reason for being there. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/09/16/1122650502/scientists-debate-how-lethal-covid-is-some-say-its-now-less-risky-than-flu Gandhi and other researchers argue that the daily death toll attributed to COVID is exaggerated because many deaths blamed on the disease are actually from other causes. Some of the people who died for other reasons happened to also test positive for the coronavirus. "We are now seeing consistently that more than 70% of our COVID hospitalizations are in that category," says Dr. Shira Doron, an infectious disease specialist at the Tufts Medical Center and a professor at the Tufts University School of Medicine. "If you're counting them all as hospitalizations, and then those people die and you count them all as COVID deaths, you are pretty dramatically overcounting." "I believe that we have reached the point where, for an individual, COVID poses less of a risk of hospitalization and death than does influenza," Doron says. Dr. Ashish Jha, the White House COVID-19 response coordinator, agrees, especially because the vaccines and treatments for COVID are better than those for the flu. "If you are up-to-date on your vaccines today, and you avail yourself of the treatments, your chances of dying COVID are vanishingly rare and certainly much lower than your risk of getting into trouble with the flu," Jha told NPR. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14011 Posts
"If you are up-to-date on your vaccines today, and you avail yourself of the treatments, your chances of dying COVID are vanishingly rare and certainly much lower than your risk of getting into trouble with the flu," Jha told NPR. And this is something that china just can't get to at this point anymore and they realize just how much trouble they're in that they're still going covid zero with lockdowns way past what the west was practicing at the start of the pandemic. Somehow the west really was able to thread the needle of keeping people getting treatment while keeping as much of the economy moving as it could. Then it was able to start producing vaccines and to get them into shoulders enough to keep riding through the coming waves without the hospitals becoming anywhere near as stretched as it was at the start. There is a significant population in America that doesn't want to get vaccinated and will die at the same rate as people throughout this event in our lives but hopefully between natural selection and the mandates we can minimize them as much as possible. China did not do what the west in and now going straight from Alpha all the way to ominicron is just a massive shock for all of them including the government. I don't think we can trust really any numbers out of china but its very clear that the government declared victory over covid and it has only repeatedly come back. Shutting down an entire city and welding people into their homes is just flatly insane and isn't something you can be doing years after the start of a pandemic. Even if they wanted to do the "smart" thing, pivot entirely to a herd immunity strategy, can they? They would need to start producing one of the MNRA vaccines, probably the latest multivariant one, but even on a china level of scale and a ccp level of state control that's months away at the least. How much would that cost to license it, because they'll need to start doing it right from second one, and how much would it cost to build and distribute it at this point? Not just in money but time and legitimacy. Shutting down shanghai for weeks is a cost I don't know if I can even imagine. Protests are probably either wildly overblown at this point or outright fake but the moment the CCP either announces that it made a massive mistake with covid or it leaks that they've pivoted you're talking losing the mandate of heaven type issue. You're not going to be able to computer model the interactions of a billion people, or that of any possible future mutations of the virus. Wastewater tracking for a macro view on covid is the best way to gauge what will happen in the coming weeks and would be the best way to decide what to do next. Its something that humans have naturally been able to organize itself around for disease tracking. | ||
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Razyda
841 Posts
Natural immunity - I think it is quite a bit higher than people think, not as high as in rest of the world, but higher than expected. They still have functioning army and police, majority of them is young healthy people and given asymptomatic covid I wouldnt be surprised if significant proportion of them already had covid without even knowing it. Then there are rural areas, farmers tend to be very pragmatic folks and I cant really imagine them calling closest city "my neighbour sneezed, can you please come test and lockdown our 200 people village" (admittedly not accounting for cultural difference here). They also tend to have quite healthy lifestyle. There are also new outbreaks which suggests that there are cases not filtered by lockdowns. Now lets say they lift restrictions for people under 40 (example only depend on the speed/risk assessment they may go with under 30, or by whole other cryteria) those are poeple with low risk from covid which would keep health services from overflowing. Due to various living arrangements it would also spread among other age groups, softening the blow coming with subsequent restrictions lift. This are obviously speculations, as I have no idea how China is going to go about it. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On November 30 2022 03:31 JimmiC wrote: Another crap "documentary" about the dangers of the vaccine and global elites goal to depopulate the world is making its rounds. Depressingly it is over 1 million views by the time this article came out. It is a blatant money grab for the people obsessed with this being some sort of grand conspiracy. One my biggest personal frustrations about this line of thinking, is how can it be about getting everyone to "comply" but then also be dangerous for those who comply? Wouldn't this shadowy evil group want the non-compliant gone? How would getting rid of all those, or any of those that listen help them? The stupidity of the movement along with the faith like belief that is true in the face of mountains of evidence and logic is very annoying to say the least. https://www.yahoo.com/news/died-suddenly-film-amplifies-false-154403218.html Why get us to comply? What’s the point? These ‘elites’ are simultaneously powerful enough to facilitate an entire fake pandemic or w/e but not powerful enough to just crush us underfoot under normal circumstances It’s the equivalent of saying an extremely elaborate set of circumstances have to be met in order to enable conditions where Mike Tyson can beat my shit in. When you know Mike Tyson could just wander over with no such conditions and beat my ass. Of actual avowed anti-vaxxers like legitimately 0% of their claims make any actual sense when you map it to the various structures of power. Or science. Or basically anything Standard proviso people who are earnestly looking at data and looking at the efficacy of vaccines in various scenarios, different. That’s looking at data and trying to figure things out, not a myopic, ridiculous worldview | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 30 2022 06:03 WombaT wrote: Why get us to comply? What’s the point? These ‘elites’ are simultaneously powerful enough to facilitate an entire fake pandemic or w/e but not powerful enough to just crush us underfoot under normal circumstances It’s the equivalent of saying an extremely elaborate set of circumstances have to be met in order to enable conditions where Mike Tyson can beat my shit in. When you know Mike Tyson could just wander over with no such conditions and beat my ass. Of actual avowed anti-vaxxers like legitimately 0% of their claims make any actual sense when you map it to the various structures of power. Or science. Or basically anything Standard proviso people who are earnestly looking at data and looking at the efficacy of vaccines in various scenarios, different. That’s looking at data and trying to figure things out, not a myopic, ridiculous worldview From my experience most people that are "antivaxxers" for the COVID shots are not of the "Bill Gates wants to depopulate us" variety. Most are of the generally skeptic "we don't trust it" variety because they believe it was rushed out, or because it's a new type of vaccine we haven't used before, or because they are worried about side effects, etc. Biden and Kamala were happy to stoke up these fears before they got into office, e.g. Biden saying "If and when the vaccine comes, it’s not likely to go through all the tests that need to be done, and the trials that are needed to be done." | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4338 Posts
Meanwhile pfizer quadrouples the price of it's covid vaccine from $30 to $120 and it's crickets. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/pfizer-covid-vaccine-price-hike-seen-giving-revenue-boost-years-2022-10-21/ | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DanceSC
United States751 Posts
On November 30 2022 07:37 JimmiC wrote: You mean you think he really believes that stuff? Also you realize that it is not the video, it is the "credibility" they get to their other channels and selling of a "natural cures" and other crap. Edit: Here is some info on how the new age snake oil salespeople make there money. But even locally there are gyms, trainers, naturopaths and so on cashing in on a little local BS fame. https://publicintegrity.org/health/coronavirus-and-inequality/spreading-fears-cashing-in-anti-vaccine/ Typically when someone makes a statement or justifies their personal beliefs they back it up with more than just "and other crap". If you want to encourage people to see things from your point of view either provide relevant data or explain why something would be considered crap or be labeled as "other crap". Personally I am surprised no one is talking about all the deaths of younger people from blood clots and the white fibrous material embalmers are finding in their veins. | ||
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Razyda
841 Posts
On November 30 2022 03:31 JimmiC wrote: Another crap "documentary" about the dangers of the vaccine and global elites goal to depopulate the world is making its rounds. Depressingly it is over 1 million views by the time this article came out. It is a blatant money grab for the people obsessed with this being some sort of grand conspiracy. One my biggest personal frustrations about this line of thinking, is how can it be about getting everyone to "comply" but then also be dangerous for those who comply? Wouldn't this shadowy evil group want the non-compliant gone? How would getting rid of all those, or any of those that listen help them? The stupidity of the movement along with the faith like belief that is true in the face of mountains of evidence and logic is very annoying to say the least. https://www.yahoo.com/news/died-suddenly-film-amplifies-false-154403218.html Out of curiosity: did you actually watch the video?? On November 30 2022 06:03 WombaT wrote: Why get us to comply? What’s the point? These ‘elites’ are simultaneously powerful enough to facilitate an entire fake pandemic or w/e but not powerful enough to just crush us underfoot under normal circumstances It’s the equivalent of saying an extremely elaborate set of circumstances have to be met in order to enable conditions where Mike Tyson can beat my shit in. When you know Mike Tyson could just wander over with no such conditions and beat my ass. Of actual avowed anti-vaxxers like legitimately 0% of their claims make any actual sense when you map it to the various structures of power. Or science. Or basically anything Standard proviso people who are earnestly looking at data and looking at the efficacy of vaccines in various scenarios, different. That’s looking at data and trying to figure things out, not a myopic, ridiculous worldview What baffles me is what do people think doctors with successful career and established name have to gain? The way I see it they have nothing to gain but plenty to lose. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25771 Posts
On November 30 2022 09:23 Razyda wrote: Out of curiosity: did you actually watch the video?? What baffles me is what do people think doctors with successful career and established name have to gain? The way I see it they have nothing to gain but plenty to lose. They can be an expert in a narrower field rather than being a bog standard mediocre scientist in the mainstream. Which has a lot of pull for people’s ego. Outside of exceptional circumstances they’ll be able to practice their profession as normal. | ||
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Razyda
841 Posts
On November 30 2022 08:52 DanceSC wrote: Typically when someone makes a statement or justifies their personal beliefs they back it up with more than just "and other crap". If you want to encourage people to see things from your point of view either provide relevant data or explain why something would be considered crap or be labeled as "other crap". Personally I am surprised no one is talking about all the deaths of younger people from blood clots and the white fibrous material embalmers are finding in their veins. Thats because mainstream media focusing on excess deaths from hearth attacks. Because we are all reasonable people following the science we know that there is no possibility that vaccine is causing those media focused on actually reasonable explanations (video with compilation of some): solar flares https://www.google.com/search?q=factcheck solar flares hearth attacks&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB830GB830&sxsrf=ALiCzsaoPFOLajL7Z-LAPHc9LQpTnhMANQ:1669823487809&ei=_3uHY_aJMfPA8gK7-56gBA&ved=0ahUKEwi2hdCeodb7AhVzoFwKHbu9B0QQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=factcheck solar flares hearth attacks&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzoKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoGCAAQFhAeOgUIABCGAzoECCMQJzoHCCEQoAEQCjoECCEQFUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCgDlijM2CyNWgBcAB4AIABkgGIAZUQkgEEMi4xNpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp no fact checked in quick google search - must be true Joy https://www.google.com/search?q=factcheck joy heart attacks&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB830GB830&sxsrf=ALiCzsZXrCiEP772SkfWZZTFt89FDO0LNw:1669823538736&ei=MnyHY6vJLNTC8gK-6Iu4BA&ved=0ahUKEwirqvS2odb7AhVUoVwKHT70AkcQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=factcheck joy heart attacks&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIHCCEQoAEQCjIHCCEQoAEQCjoICAAQCBAeEA06BQgAEIYDSgQIQRgBSgQIRhgAUNkGWJopYLsqaAFwAHgAgAGWAYgBmw-SAQQzLjE0mAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp no fact checked in quick google search, bizzarly we have bunch of links confirming that vaccines arent linked to hearth attacks. We are now also aware that vaccine so called "side effects" are caused by antivaxxers, which is proven here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36381188/ If confronted by one of those dangerous individuals doesnt matter what you say, as long as you repeat often enough: - Is disproven/debunked because there is no proof - safe and effective - correlation is not a causation User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain18070 Posts
On December 01 2022 01:27 Razyda wrote: Thats because mainstream media focusing on excess deaths from hearth attacks. Because we are all reasonable people following the science we know that there is no possibility that vaccine is causing those media focused on actually reasonable explanations (video with compilation of some): https://twitter.com/i/status/1597912030841012225 solar flares https://www.google.com/search?q=factcheck solar flares hearth attacks&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB830GB830&sxsrf=ALiCzsaoPFOLajL7Z-LAPHc9LQpTnhMANQ:1669823487809&ei=_3uHY_aJMfPA8gK7-56gBA&ved=0ahUKEwi2hdCeodb7AhVzoFwKHbu9B0QQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=factcheck solar flares hearth attacks&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzoKCAAQRxDWBBCwAzoGCAAQFhAeOgUIABCGAzoECCMQJzoHCCEQoAEQCjoECCEQFUoECEEYAEoECEYYAFCgDlijM2CyNWgBcAB4AIABkgGIAZUQkgEEMi4xNpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=gws-wiz-serp no fact checked in quick google search - must be true Joy https://www.google.com/search?q=factcheck joy heart attacks&rlz=1C1CHBF_en-GBGB830GB830&sxsrf=ALiCzsZXrCiEP772SkfWZZTFt89FDO0LNw:1669823538736&ei=MnyHY6vJLNTC8gK-6Iu4BA&ved=0ahUKEwirqvS2odb7AhVUoVwKHT70AkcQ4dUDCBA&uact=5&oq=factcheck joy heart attacks&gs_lcp=Cgxnd3Mtd2l6LXNlcnAQAzIHCCEQoAEQCjIHCCEQoAEQCjoICAAQCBAeEA06BQgAEIYDSgQIQRgBSgQIRhgAUNkGWJopYLsqaAFwAHgAgAGWAYgBmw-SAQQzLjE0mAEAoAEBwAEB&sclient=gws-wiz-serp no fact checked in quick google search, bizzarly we have bunch of links confirming that vaccines arent linked to hearth attacks. We are now also aware that vaccine so called "side effects" are caused by antivaxxers, which is proven here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36381188/ If confronted by one of those dangerous individuals doesnt matter what you say, as long as you repeat often enough: - Is disproven/debunked because there is no proof - safe and effective - correlation is not a causation I know I should just report this incoherent jumble of linkdumps, but I'm trying to figure out if you are being serious or satirical when you link a tweet that starts with "The media is the virus!!1111" before moving on to even more ridiculous nonsense? | ||
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