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Coronavirus and You - Page 637

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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.

It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.

Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.

This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.

Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14211 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-22 21:02:42
October 22 2022 21:01 GMT
#12721
On October 23 2022 03:55 BlackJack wrote:
@Sermokala

It’s hilarious that you can repeatedly state that if I’m against compelling people to get vaccinated it’s because I’m against science and against facts and I want people to die and nobody says a word.

But then if I do it to you facetiously simply as an exercise to demonstrate how ridiculous you are being people will come from all over to criticize me for arguing in bad faith.

Do you have any idea how many countries have lifted all their COVID vaccine mandates? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying all of these countries don’t believe in “facts” and “science”?

See the thing that keeps tripping you up I think is that because you're so feelings based on what you advocate for you can't comprehend what's staring you in the face. That them lifting their mandates now isn't based on them rejecting their ideological fanaticism to subjugate their people but, hear me out, them using facts and science to make decisions.

See even magic shows that he can use his assessment of facts and science to make decisions. You're clearly incapable of understanding how that is even possible
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
WombaT
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
October 22 2022 21:13 GMT
#12722
On October 23 2022 05:01 Magic Powers wrote:
BJ either misremembers my stance on vaccine mandates or doesn't care to represent it correctly.
I'm against a general vaccine mandate, which is defined as a mandate for all adults, and refusing it can have severe consequences like getting fired. However, if people are recklessly endangering their co-workers, patients, etc., then I'd consider a mandate for those people perfectly justified. I would oppose a mandate only if it is excessive and unreasonable.
I'm definitely not against all vaccine mandates and I've never been against that. During the peak of the pandemic it was mandated that people get vaccinated to be able to go to the cinemas, and I was in favor of that.

Broadly my position.

I’m against a general mandate now much so than then because I don’t really see how it’s going to be effective.

We’re largely not doing any of the other helpful things, and especially if its effect on a new variant is less effective, and its effectiveness in transmissibility has also dropped.

Was generally pro things like mask mandates back in the day because a vaccine does raise issue of bodily autonomy, while wearing a mask in certain environments is more equivalent to ‘no shirt, no shoes, no service’.

Hey we’re all biased to one degree or another. Working retail the entire pandemic with people who refused to show the basic courtesy of not coughing all over me will influence positions.
'You'll always be the cuddly marsupial of my heart, despite the inherent flaws of your ancestry' - Squat
TL+ Member
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-22 21:13:52
October 22 2022 21:13 GMT
#12723
On October 23 2022 06:01 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2022 03:55 BlackJack wrote:
@Sermokala

It’s hilarious that you can repeatedly state that if I’m against compelling people to get vaccinated it’s because I’m against science and against facts and I want people to die and nobody says a word.

But then if I do it to you facetiously simply as an exercise to demonstrate how ridiculous you are being people will come from all over to criticize me for arguing in bad faith.

Do you have any idea how many countries have lifted all their COVID vaccine mandates? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying all of these countries don’t believe in “facts” and “science”?

See the thing that keeps tripping you up I think is that because you're so feelings based on what you advocate for you can't comprehend what's staring you in the face. That them lifting their mandates now isn't based on them rejecting their ideological fanaticism to subjugate their people but, hear me out, them using facts and science to make decisions.

See even magic shows that he can use his assessment of facts and science to make decisions. You're clearly incapable of understanding how that is even possible

the nuance that a decision made in 2020 would possibly be entirely different in the light on 2022 data or widespread availability of vaccines (as well as their uptake) but can still be regarded as the right decision at the time without any cognitive dissonance or being hypocritical appears difficult to convey.
passive quaranstream fan
Slydie
Profile Joined August 2013
2014 Posts
October 22 2022 21:34 GMT
#12724
I just had a look on the covid deaths graph of Norway, and it rises some interresting questions.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/norway/

The most interresting is that the large majority of deaths happened in 2022, and the total amount is just above 4k of a population of just over 5 million. But... the whole country, including mass media, was already so tired of freaking out nobody really cared. It was considered acceptable, and Norway is still on the low end of covid related deaths in Europe.

Most African countries are way lower, though. It could be because of less testing, warmer climate, tougher immune systems, younger populations or even different genes, but COVID has not been a major issue there, and I hope it gets properly researched!
Buff the siegetank
Simberto
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Germany12028 Posts
October 22 2022 22:09 GMT
#12725
On October 23 2022 06:13 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2022 06:01 Sermokala wrote:
On October 23 2022 03:55 BlackJack wrote:
@Sermokala

It’s hilarious that you can repeatedly state that if I’m against compelling people to get vaccinated it’s because I’m against science and against facts and I want people to die and nobody says a word.

But then if I do it to you facetiously simply as an exercise to demonstrate how ridiculous you are being people will come from all over to criticize me for arguing in bad faith.

Do you have any idea how many countries have lifted all their COVID vaccine mandates? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying all of these countries don’t believe in “facts” and “science”?

See the thing that keeps tripping you up I think is that because you're so feelings based on what you advocate for you can't comprehend what's staring you in the face. That them lifting their mandates now isn't based on them rejecting their ideological fanaticism to subjugate their people but, hear me out, them using facts and science to make decisions.

See even magic shows that he can use his assessment of facts and science to make decisions. You're clearly incapable of understanding how that is even possible

the nuance that a decision made in 2020 would possibly be entirely different in the light on 2022 data or widespread availability of vaccines (as well as their uptake) but can still be regarded as the right decision at the time without any cognitive dissonance or being hypocritical appears difficult to convey.


That is sadly a pretty common view. See "flip-flopping" being seen as being bad in politics. Some people seem to be of the opinion that you have to take your position, and then you defend that position forever and never change it, because anything else would be weakness.
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28910 Posts
October 22 2022 22:35 GMT
#12726
They changed how COVID deaths are counted in Norway. Used to be you needed a confirmed positive covid test in the 'notification system for infectious disease', but since mid march they only needed to have 'died with covid', whatever that means. This also applied retroactively, so it caused a big spike from february + consistently higher numbers since. The way I understand it, for a whole lot of deaths, it's hard to discern to what degree covid was the cause of death because the deceased suffered from very severe comorbidities. (Although deaths have increased, it's still overwhelmingly very old people. The median age of COVID deaths in Norway was 87 years back in march, and 64% of dead were living in nursing homes. People in nursing homes are generally very, very frail.)

(Here are two Norwegian sour ces

As for the latter point - I think age is probably the primary factor, followed by lack of obesity/comorbidities associated with age and obesity. There are plenty African countries with median ages below 20, and with average BMIs below 23. Less testing might well be a factor too.
Moderator
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18464 Posts
October 22 2022 23:11 GMT
#12727
On October 23 2022 06:34 Slydie wrote:
I just had a look on the covid deaths graph of Norway, and it rises some interresting questions.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/norway/

The most interresting is that the large majority of deaths happened in 2022, and the total amount is just above 4k of a population of just over 5 million. But... the whole country, including mass media, was already so tired of freaking out nobody really cared. It was considered acceptable, and Norway is still on the low end of covid related deaths in Europe.

Most African countries are way lower, though. It could be because of less testing, warmer climate, tougher immune systems, younger populations or even different genes, but COVID has not been a major issue there, and I hope it gets properly researched!

COVID was a major issue in both Morocco and South Africa. Those are also two of the more developed countries in Africa. Could it be that Covid was not an issue in Africa because of (1) underreporting and (2) it still being considerably less awful than malaria, dengue, dysentry or a whole host of other infectious diseases that we don't have over here?
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
October 23 2022 06:32 GMT
#12728
On October 23 2022 06:13 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2022 06:01 Sermokala wrote:
On October 23 2022 03:55 BlackJack wrote:
@Sermokala

It’s hilarious that you can repeatedly state that if I’m against compelling people to get vaccinated it’s because I’m against science and against facts and I want people to die and nobody says a word.

But then if I do it to you facetiously simply as an exercise to demonstrate how ridiculous you are being people will come from all over to criticize me for arguing in bad faith.

Do you have any idea how many countries have lifted all their COVID vaccine mandates? Do you realize how ridiculous you sound saying all of these countries don’t believe in “facts” and “science”?

See the thing that keeps tripping you up I think is that because you're so feelings based on what you advocate for you can't comprehend what's staring you in the face. That them lifting their mandates now isn't based on them rejecting their ideological fanaticism to subjugate their people but, hear me out, them using facts and science to make decisions.

See even magic shows that he can use his assessment of facts and science to make decisions. You're clearly incapable of understanding how that is even possible

the nuance that a decision made in 2020 would possibly be entirely different in the light on 2022 data or widespread availability of vaccines (as well as their uptake) but can still be regarded as the right decision at the time without any cognitive dissonance or being hypocritical appears difficult to convey.


Because you’re obviously not privy to the details of the conversation. This stupidly long back and forth with Sermokala for why we should have COVID vaccine mandates didn’t occur in 2020. It occurred in August 2022. If you think vaccines weren’t widely available then and we didn’t have the data we have today you’re wrong.

He didn’t even say he changed his own position that we don’t need vaccine mandates for COVID. Just they “they” have decided we don’t need vaccine mandates. If he wants to come out and say he supported the vaccine mandates in 2021 but he doesn’t think they are necessary any longer then I welcome it.

Just to further drive that point home, during the same conversation he said he support flu vaccine mandates for the workplace because that would also save lives. Not much has changed about the flu from 2020 to 2022. So unless he thinks the flu is worse than COVID logically he would still support vaccine mandates for both.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
October 23 2022 07:25 GMT
#12729
On October 23 2022 15:32 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 23 2022 06:13 Artisreal wrote:
On October 23 2022 06:01 Sermokala wrote:
On October 23 2022 03:55 BlackJack wrote:
@Sermokala

It’s hilarious that you can repeatedly state that if I’m against compelling people to get vaccinated it’s because I’m against science and against facts and I want people to die and nobody says a word.

But then if I do it to you facetiously simply as an exercise to demonstrate how ridiculous you are being people will come from all over to criticize me for arguing in bad faith.

Do you have any idea how many countries have lifted all their COVID vaccine mandates? Do you realize how ridiculous youTh sound saying all of these countries don’t believe in “facts” and “science”?

See the thing that keeps tripping you up I think is that because you're so feelings based on what you advocate for you can't comprehend what's staring you in the face. That them lifting their mandates now isn't based on them rejecting their ideological fanaticism to subjugate their people but, hear me out, them using facts and science to make decisions.

See even magic shows that he can use his assessment of facts and science to make decisions. You're clearly incapable of understanding how that is even possible

the nuance that a decision made in 2020 would possibly be entirely different in the light on 2022 data or widespread availability of vaccines (as well as their uptake) but can still be regarded as the right decision at the time without any cognitive dissonance or being hypocritical appears difficult to convey.


Because you’re obviously not privy to the details of the conversation. This stupidly long back and forth with Sermokala for why we should have COVID vaccine mandates didn’t occur in 2020. It occurred in August 2022. If you think vaccines weren’t widely available then and we didn’t have the data we have today you’re wrong.

He didn’t even say he changed his own position that we don’t need vaccine mandates for COVID. Just they “they” have decided we don’t need vaccine mandates. If he wants to come out and say he supported the vaccine mandates in 2021 but he doesn’t think they are necessary any longer then I welcome it.

Just to further drive that point home, during the same conversation he said he support flu vaccine mandates for the workplace because that would also save lives. Not much has changed about the flu from 2020 to 2022. So unless he thinks the flu is worse than COVID logically he would still support vaccine mandates for both.

No.
your convo with serm has zero to do with my post.
passive quaranstream fan
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
October 26 2022 11:09 GMT
#12730
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Artisreal
Profile Joined June 2009
Germany9235 Posts
October 26 2022 12:12 GMT
#12731
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.

What do you think should be done regarding the mental health challenges and minority disadvantages?
+ Show Spoiler [some graphs from the study] +

[image loading]

Reading

[image loading]

Maths


its a tragedy, absolutely. The part about us knowing about children to be less susceptible early on is rubbish though
passive quaranstream fan
Razyda
Profile Joined March 2013
1067 Posts
October 26 2022 12:34 GMT
#12732
On October 26 2022 21:12 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.

What do you think should be done regarding the mental health challenges and minority disadvantages?
+ Show Spoiler [some graphs from the study] +

[image loading]

Reading

[image loading]

Maths


its a tragedy, absolutely.The part about us knowing about children to be less susceptible early on is rubbish though


While maybe not day 1, we did knew it early on, way before lockdowns.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46516 Posts
October 26 2022 12:46 GMT
#12733
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.


Your first two paragraphs point out some very real and unfortunate realities about huge problem areas that should have been addressed before the pandemic and still need to be addressed today. There is a lot of work that needs to be done to fix our schools and overarching communities, and to make sure that families have the tools they need to succeed, and the pandemic has certainly exacerbated some of those issues. I don't have the data in front of me, but I think the biggest correlation between academic success and Identity Characteristic X is when X is socioeconomic status (and it also happens to be the case that Black and Latino families tend to be in lower-income brackets, hence the apparent race gap). I think that comparing a Black, Latino, and white student all from upper-middle class families will tend to see similar results, and I think that comparing a Black, Latino, and white student all from working class families will tend to see similar results, as opposed to both Black students and both Latino students lagging significantly behind both white students, regardless of family income. There seem to be many reasons why socioeconomic status is an important factor in academic success; some students are going to school hungry or worried about their families making ends meet, to say nothing of the fact that they can't afford good books or computers, so learning about the Pythagorean theorem or the War of 1812 in school might not be their real-life priority for the day (from their perspective, based on what's going on in their personal/family lives).

Your third paragraph is concerning to me, though. Remote learning was absolutely not ideal compared to the norm for academic development and mental health, but it was a necessary evil during the pandemic (which was anything but normal). We know that children can infect their parents and grandparents with coronavirus, even if the children have very few (or no) symptoms, so temporarily shutting down our schools was keeping entire families alive; it's more than just the fact that the death rate of children was low. Learning that you accidentally killed your grandmother is way worse for mental health than missing a year of being in school.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22662 Posts
October 26 2022 13:14 GMT
#12734
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
October 26 2022 13:27 GMT
#12735
On October 26 2022 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.




Agreed. Seems like a bad faith attempt at making a point.
Sometimes it feels like we speak two different languages on this stuff.

What was the alternative to the virtual learning (which depending on area was a relatively short stint). Shove teachers and students into class and tell them tough shit?
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-26 14:16:25
October 26 2022 13:58 GMT
#12736
On October 26 2022 21:12 Artisreal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.

What do you think should be done regarding the mental health challenges and minority disadvantages?
+ Show Spoiler [some graphs from the study] +

[image loading]

Reading

[image loading]

Maths


its a tragedy, absolutely. The part about us knowing about children to be less susceptible early on is rubbish though


We definitely knew children were less susceptible very early on. Not sure where you’re getting that from.

Edit: to answer your question we should have not closed schools to begin with except in the most dire of circumstances, for example early spring of 2020. We saw virtual learning continue all the way into 2022. Where I live the SF school board paid the price for this ridiculousness when several lost their positions in recall elections.

https://www.unicef.org/rosa/press-releases/no-excuses-keep-schools-open-children-cant-wait
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
October 26 2022 14:07 GMT
#12737
On October 26 2022 22:27 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.




Agreed. Seems like a bad faith attempt at making a point.
Sometimes it feels like we speak two different languages on this stuff.

What was the alternative to the virtual learning (which depending on area was a relatively short stint). Shove teachers and students into class and tell them tough shit?


Sorry how is that a bad faith argument? Children did sacrifice the most and they were affected the least.

I’m not sure why you think children sacrificing their educational and developmental upbringing so they don’t become disease vectors for their boomer grandparents is a counterpoint. That’s entirely consistent with the concept of sacrifice.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
October 26 2022 14:13 GMT
#12738
On October 26 2022 23:07 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 22:27 Sadist wrote:
On October 26 2022 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.




Agreed. Seems like a bad faith attempt at making a point.
Sometimes it feels like we speak two different languages on this stuff.

What was the alternative to the virtual learning (which depending on area was a relatively short stint). Shove teachers and students into class and tell them tough shit?


Sorry how is that a bad faith argument? Children did sacrifice the most and they were affected the least.

I’m not sure why you think children sacrificing their educational and developmental upbringing so they don’t become disease vectors for their boomer grandparents is a counterpoint. That’s entirely consistent with the concept of sacrifice.




What was your suggestion to avoid this mess?

How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
BlackJack
Profile Blog Joined June 2003
United States10574 Posts
October 26 2022 14:20 GMT
#12739
On October 26 2022 23:13 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 23:07 BlackJack wrote:
On October 26 2022 22:27 Sadist wrote:
On October 26 2022 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.




Agreed. Seems like a bad faith attempt at making a point.
Sometimes it feels like we speak two different languages on this stuff.

What was the alternative to the virtual learning (which depending on area was a relatively short stint). Shove teachers and students into class and tell them tough shit?


Sorry how is that a bad faith argument? Children did sacrifice the most and they were affected the least.

I’m not sure why you think children sacrificing their educational and developmental upbringing so they don’t become disease vectors for their boomer grandparents is a counterpoint. That’s entirely consistent with the concept of sacrifice.




What was your suggestion to avoid this mess?



Keep the schools open. This study suggests children in Sweden didn’t have the same drop that students in the USA had

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883035522000891
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46516 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-10-26 14:50:50
October 26 2022 14:49 GMT
#12740
On October 26 2022 23:20 BlackJack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 26 2022 23:13 Sadist wrote:
On October 26 2022 23:07 BlackJack wrote:
On October 26 2022 22:27 Sadist wrote:
On October 26 2022 22:14 Gorsameth wrote:
On October 26 2022 20:09 BlackJack wrote:
National testing called “The nations report card” that routinely tests 4th and 8th graders shows massive declines in education during the pandemic. Something like only 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 are proficient in math and reading if I remember correctly. It also widened the gaps between white students and black and Latino students with white students being more likely to have access to personal laptops, good internet connections, quiet environments etc.

We are also seeing many medical pediatric groups sound the alarm on a pediatric mental health crisis that has unfolded in the country. Depression, anxiety, suicidal thoughts have gone up so much during the pandemic among children that there aren’t enough psychiatric hospitals to handle it. Children are often having to spend several nights sleeping in an Emergency Room while they wait for a bed at a psych hospital to become available.

All around absolutely tragic. Children were asked to sacrifice the most during the pandemic despite to fact that we knew from day 1 that the disease affected children the least.
Closing schools has (almost) nothing to do with the actual danger to the child and everything to do with them being prime infection spots, and then the infected child goes home and infects its parents.

It was about slowing down the spread.




Agreed. Seems like a bad faith attempt at making a point.
Sometimes it feels like we speak two different languages on this stuff.

What was the alternative to the virtual learning (which depending on area was a relatively short stint). Shove teachers and students into class and tell them tough shit?


Sorry how is that a bad faith argument? Children did sacrifice the most and they were affected the least.

I’m not sure why you think children sacrificing their educational and developmental upbringing so they don’t become disease vectors for their boomer grandparents is a counterpoint. That’s entirely consistent with the concept of sacrifice.




What was your suggestion to avoid this mess?



Keep the schools open. This study suggests children in Sweden didn’t have the same drop that students in the USA had

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0883035522000891


According to your source, they didn't have the usual, annual student reading/math (standardized?) tests in Sweden during covid to compare to scores before/after covid. Here are some key lines/paragraphs from that source which show that the conversation is much more complex and nuanced than just your solution of "Keep the schools open":

In 2020-2021, real-world data on learning during the pandemic from countries where students have experienced school closures have started to get published (for a systematic review including studies published up until April 31, 2021, see Hammerstein et al., 2021). The studies included in Hammerstein et al. (2021) are from different countries (all from the global north including Australia, except for one study from China) investigating the effect of 7-8 week school closures, and report mixed findings regarding loss in reading attainment in primary grades, with effect sizes ranging from -0.37 SD (Switzerland: Tomasik, Helbling, & Moser, 2021) to +0.04 SD (Australia: Gore et al., 2021): i.e. ranging from the worst-case projections to no negative effect at all). The magnitude of effect on reading due to school closures are dependent on what other measures are in place, such as good access to and knowledge of digital and online solutions, economic support for families during the pandemic, etc. and it is therefore not straightforward to compare results between countries. A few studies have confirmed that school closures did have a particularly negative effect on disadvantaged students (Engzell, Frey, & Verhagen, 2021; Maldonado & De Witte, 2021), low-achieving students (Clark et al., 2021), and younger students (Tomasik et al., 2021).

Sweden made the choice to keep pre-schools, primary schools, and lower secondary schools open very early in the pandemic, and even when upper secondary schools and universities closed and went online, schools for the younger students have been kept in-person throughout the whole COVID-19 pandemic. This choice was in stark contrast to most other comparable countries, including the close Nordic neighbours. Open schools did not necessarily mean that the pandemic did not affect the learning of the youngest students in Sweden, however. The Swedish pandemic strategy included strict recommendations to stay home if the slightest symptoms of illness were present. Increased teacher and student absence and the resulting difficulty with continuity in teaching and learning, as well as the anxiety and stress from experiencing a pandemic might still have affected teaching as well as student learning negatively (Sjögren et al., 2021). One group of students that might have been disproportionally affected are those who need more intense and specialized support in school, such as those with weaker reading abilities or slow reading development. Another group is students from disadvantaged socio-economic backgrounds. A lower socioeconomic status and/or being a first-generation immigrant from a low- or middle-income country are associated with a higher risk of getting infected with and dying from COVID-19 in Sweden (Drefahl et al., 2020). Drefahl et al. (2020) point out that explanations might include both residential and occupational risk factors, e.g., multigenerational households and no option to work remotely. Thus, Swedish children from lower-socioeconomic backgrounds had a higher risk of being infected with COVID-19 themselves, and also an increased risk of other pandemic-related stress factors, such as sickness and death in the family, more crowding and potential conflicts at home, and less protective social contacts outside the family (Sjögren et al., 2021).

If, and how, the pandemic has affected student learning in Sweden is unknown, however. In many countries, educational data have not been collected and shared during the pandemic. In Sweden national tests in reading and mathematics in grade 3 were cancelled in spring 2020, and in spring 2021, schools did not have to report the results to Statistics Sweden (SCB), to ease the administrative burden on schools. Thus, no official national data on student progress in reading during the pandemic compared to previous years exist.


Especially that final paragraph. These are all from the Introduction area of your source.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
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