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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
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Norway28876 Posts
I can't find national numbers (or well, I don't care enough to look), but in my region of Norway (and I have no reason to believe we're an outlier) 95% of 16-17 year olds have gotten the first dose, 76% of 12-15 year olds have. Second dose is only 16% for 16-17 year olds and 1% for 12-15.
I don't know if we're at 'herd immunity', but we've been having 0 restrictions for three weeks now, people partied HARD the first weekend (literally biggest gatherings of people I've ever seen in the center of Trondheim), and numbers have still been decreasing.
(And yeah. If we see a significant increase in numbers, we'll probably have some restrictions again. Most likely only regional unless something weird happens, though, but that's still on the table. It has not happened, though. Norway has had pretty low numbers (especially hospitalizations and deaths) the entire pandemic though, population density, average health, scandinavian mentality regarding hugs and stuff are all probably factors that benefit us in addition to the vaccine compliancy.)
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On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:21 Acrofales wrote:
There is no scenario where comparing natural immunity alone to a vaccine alone makes sense, because those are not equivalent options if you are pursuing protection from Covid.
. As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists. In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/fNGrSje.png) Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it.
I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true.
But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists.
But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information.
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On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:21 Acrofales wrote:
There is no scenario where comparing natural immunity alone to a vaccine alone makes sense, because those are not equivalent options if you are pursuing protection from Covid.
. As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists. In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information.
While the horse paste miracle cure or the HCQ miracle cure might only be convincing to a relatively small percentage of Americans, anti-vaccine rhetoric as a whole is definitely not uncommon during this covid crisis (and think of how many people watch Fox News or OAN), and there are also other serious conspiracy theories and misinformation campaigns that are absolutely impacting a much larger number of Americans (e.g., widespread voter fraud letting Biden steal the election from Trump), so while it's outside the scope of this thread to talk about all the non-covid crazy crap, and while restricting false information may be a point of contention in terms of freedoms, I think it's fair to acknowledge that the idea of social media cracking down on dangerous lies isn't just because of a small group of people eating horse paste.
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Northern Ireland27266 Posts
On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:21 Acrofales wrote:
There is no scenario where comparing natural immunity alone to a vaccine alone makes sense, because those are not equivalent options if you are pursuing protection from Covid.
. As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists. In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information.
Why is that scary?
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Chief of the Chicago police union is urging members not to follow vaccine mandate and claims police force there could be cut 50% this weekend.Maybe we’re about to get a taste of what ‘defund the police’ would actually mean, in a city with already high rates of gun violence.Good luck!
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/chicagos-police-union-chief-urges-officers-defy-citys/story?id=80579358
Fraternal Order of Police President John Catanzara said, "It's safe to say that the city of Chicago will have a police force at 50% or less for this weekend coming up," in a video shared on YouTube Tuesday.
"I can guarantee you that no-pay status will not last more than 30 days," Catanzara said. "There's no way they're going to be able to sustain a police department workforce at 50% capacity or less for more than seven days without something budging."
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On October 15 2021 11:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2021 10:50 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Chief of the Chicago police union is urging members not to follow vaccine mandate and claims police force there could be cut 50% this weekend.Maybe we’re about to get a taste of what ‘defund the police’ would actually mean, in a city with already high rates of gun violence.Good luck! https://abcnews.go.com/Health/chicagos-police-union-chief-urges-officers-defy-citys/story?id=80579358Fraternal Order of Police President John Catanzara said, "It's safe to say that the city of Chicago will have a police force at 50% or less for this weekend coming up," in a video shared on YouTube Tuesday.
"I can guarantee you that no-pay status will not last more than 30 days," Catanzara said. "There's no way they're going to be able to sustain a police department workforce at 50% capacity or less for more than seven days without something budging." Wow first you are posting about regulating profit instead of letting the freemarket do its work, you want government to regulate what businesses can require from their employees and now you are pro union. What happened to the conservative libertarian?
You’re trying to put words in my mouth, when i have explained my positions countless times.Government forcing businesses to enact vaccine passports is not free market.Free market would be businesses deciding whether or not to enact passports and customers deciding what they like.As i described before Australia does not have that, it is Govt law.I am not pro union, or anti union.Their decisions should be taken on a case by case basis.
It would be pretty funny if the right "pwn"d the libs by putting themselves at greater risk AND massively reducing the police
force, not to mention self selecting out all of the super conservative ones. Maybe an all time great self own.
Are they mandating vaccines for truckers crossing state lines yet? Truckers are generally very conservative.Supply chains are already crippled aren’t they? And this doesn’t concern you whatsoever? OK. A huge cop walkout is bad for the whole city, not a ‘self own’.
It would be shocking if that many people quit, so far at the places that have implemented .5% have quit, and some of those places do not allow for testing. It turns out most people need the money more then this new aversion to vaccines.
It wouldn’t be 50% like he claims, since they can still do regular testing, for now.Close to 16% of NY hospital staff were still unvaxxed as of late last month : https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/sep/26/new-york-national-guard-unvaccinated-health-workers-governor-kathy-hochul so it’s not a stretch to suggest more conservative professions like police or truckers would have far, far higher rates than that.They’re bringing in national guard to fill shortages already in medical and transport (School bus drivers in MA) so look for that to increase.
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Getting rid of teachers who don't believe in science medical professionals that don't believe in medicine and armed defenders of the public who don't believe in defending the public is a good thing.
This isn't a right/left thing its a basic competency thing at this point. Some people want to be part of the solution and some people want to be part of the problem.
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On October 15 2021 13:14 Sermokala wrote:
Getting rid of teachers who don't believe in science medical professionals that don't believe in medicine and armed defenders of the public who don't believe in defending the public is a good thing.
This isn't a right/left thing its a basic competency thing at this point. Some people want to be part of the solution and some people want to be part of the problem.
Can't we just ship them to re-education camps? Or do you think all hope is lost. Maybe we can cordon off a section of Mohdoo Island to use for the camps until they are permitted to re-enter society.
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Are health insurance companies covering COVID treatment for unvaccinated? The risk of economic ruin should be a very powerful incentive, and it goes well with my social-liberal views.
I had the first anti-vax incident in my RL-circles. A father did not want her daughter to get the shot, and she just tested positive as there was an outbreak in her class. She had only very mild symptoms, but going into isolation is terrible. I am not sure if the father has changed his views, but he certainly lost my respect.
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On October 15 2021 13:27 JimmiC wrote:
You missed my point, the left wants less cops, the idea of less does not scare them it empowers them. And most would see it as a bonus if most of the most QAnon style right left the force. If they could pick anyone to get rid of I'm sure these guys would all be super high on their lists.
I’m not sure the majority of ‘the left’ want fewer cops, maybe an extreme fringe.Point I made is if 50% of cops did walk off the job, then most people would be begging for them to come back.Heck if 50% walked off the job who would be left to police the vaccine passport mandate at restaurants if things got hectic at such places?
Yes the Truckers of any employers with more the 100 employee's would be under the same rules. Many though are self employed and contracted so they would be able to do as they pleased, though the various head offices and places they might go may have rules. And again weekly testing is not that huge of deal, there are many employers in the US that are requiring it or you are let go, and that is not a government rule. Even for religious exemptions many companies are giving upaid leave, and the courts have upheld it.
The large Toyota dealership near me has had 12 or so demo cars in the lot for almost a year now.You can’t drive cars away anymore they’re prebooked months in advance when the ships finally arrive.The supply chain for truck parts is also far behind where it needs to be due to the policies you supported like lockdowns, restrictions, factory closures etc.Add to that backlog a percentage of truck drivers that park up due to mandates and it’s not hard to see the supply chain crisis worsen.Already is.Don’t know about you but prices here are really going up fast.
BTW I am sure you are aware large scale disruptions to the food supply network have the potential to kill far more than covid, and not just majority 80&90 year olds.As I posted in the economics thread fertiliser prices are already at record highs due to shortages because of the reduction in natural gas flows to Europe (Fertiliser is a byproduct of NatGas).This means food prices will further increase.You always try to paint this situation in black and white when it is grey.
See also last years World Bank report Covid to push 150 million into extreme poverty by 2021 (Due to government restrictions, lockdowns, supply chain breakdowns, inflation etc)
https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2020/10/07/covid-19-to-add-as-many-as-150-million-extreme-poor-by-2021
The laws Abbot in Texas and DeSantis in Florida and in other southern states are to make it so businesses can not, not to give them choice. Most businesses want the Federal rule because it makes it much easier on them then dealing state by state, and most large business have gone further than required. This was not unpopular with businesses, many were doing it anyway, now the state government is trying to take that away. These are governments branded as right libertarians and most of their voters consider themselves as such.
Can’t speak too much about the US state/federal situation with regard to legality but I do know Texas passed the law banning vax mandates.I also see Tesla is moving their headquarters from California to Texas.Must not be a dealbreaker for Tesla.
In my country anyway the feds have handballed it to the States who have then handballed it to individual employers but again the legality is under question and there are numerous lawsuits ongoing mostly revolving around Commonwealth law superseding state law, The Biosecurity Act and the Constitution.
Another funny thing is that police are literally paid to enforce the law, and expect to regardless of their own thoughts. It is basically the entire jobs and there are others who pick those laws and then a different group who judges guilt and innocence. How many times has someone used the excuse of "I don't make the law" or "its the law" to any question of its fair? And this is the one bad enough to make them all quit? That they have to suck up and take a safe and effective vaccine or get tested weekly?.
Maybe they joined the police force to stop actual criminals and not just fine people for not wearing a facemask? If they are willing to get stood down over this that is their call, all you need to realise is the policies you support have consequences.
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On October 15 2021 09:15 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:21 Acrofales wrote:
There is no scenario where comparing natural immunity alone to a vaccine alone makes sense, because those are not equivalent options if you are pursuing protection from Covid.
. As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists. In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information. Why is that scary?
When has it ever been a good thing when a government could determine what the truth was and control the flow of information to the masses? I think historically there are enough examples to say this is overwhelmingly more bad than good.
I think it's a mistake to think you would want anyone to determine what is true/false for you. It's a much bigger mistake if that anyone is the government. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas.
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On October 15 2021 18:41 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2021 09:15 WombaT wrote:On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:21 Acrofales wrote:
There is no scenario where comparing natural immunity alone to a vaccine alone makes sense, because those are not equivalent options if you are pursuing protection from Covid.
. As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists. In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information. Why is that scary? When has it ever been a good thing when a government could determine what the truth was and control the flow of information to the masses? I think historically there are enough examples to say this is overwhelmingly more bad than good. I think it's a mistake to think you would want anyone to determine what is true/false for you. It's a much bigger mistake if that anyone is the government. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas. So what do you suggest to deal with the lies and misinformation in current society? And considering that being able to freely spout said lies and misinformation has already led to a murderous insurrection in the case of Trump and god knows how many dead from Covid/Vax deniers.
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On October 15 2021 18:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2021 18:41 BlackJack wrote:On October 15 2021 09:15 WombaT wrote:On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists.
In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?
Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information. Why is that scary? When has it ever been a good thing when a government could determine what the truth was and control the flow of information to the masses? I think historically there are enough examples to say this is overwhelmingly more bad than good. I think it's a mistake to think you would want anyone to determine what is true/false for you. It's a much bigger mistake if that anyone is the government. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas. So what do you suggest to deal with the lies and misinformation in current society? And considering that being able to freely spout said lies and misinformation has already led to a murderous insurrection in the case of Trump and god knows how many dead from Covid/Vax deniers.
I'm not sure I have a good answer. I don't think I've even thought about it before you just asked me. But if my options are to have the government intercede or do absolutely nothing I am going to pick do absolutely nothing every time.
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On October 15 2021 18:59 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On October 15 2021 18:41 BlackJack wrote:On October 15 2021 09:15 WombaT wrote:On October 15 2021 08:01 BlackJack wrote:On October 14 2021 20:10 WombaT wrote:On October 14 2021 12:16 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 21:19 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 21:09 BlackJack wrote:On October 13 2021 20:55 Gorsameth wrote:On October 13 2021 20:39 BlackJack wrote:
[quote]
As I have said previously, there are hundreds of millions of people that have already been infected with COVID. It is critically important for them to know what level of protection they have. Just because this dumb scenario of the uninfected person having to make an option of which immunity to pursue is the only thing you can conjure doesn't mean it's the only implication that exists.
In all seriousness why do you think there are scientists studying this topic as we speak? Do you think they are trying to figure out if it might be a better idea to seek out natural immunity instead of vaccine immunity? Do you think they any of them are open to that possibility? Shouldn't you warn them that they are wasting their time because no matter what their research shows the only thing that matters is that it's better to get vaccinated than to seek out natural immunity?
Maybe I am being a little snarky there but please do provide a serious answer of why you think scientists are researching this if the results of their research are "not relevant because vaccine immunity is always going to be better because you don't have to get COVID to get vaccine immunity." Because the point of science is to study and understand the universe around us. Researching the effects of natural immunity is a part of that and studies into it could help understand the virus, the bodies reaction to the virus and how to better deal with it. Doesn't mean they are in favour of letting people just catch Covid and hope they don't land in the hospital or suffer other long term effects. You can research natural immunity and at the same time understand that it is not a better option for dealing with a pandemic. Yes!! Fantastic answers. Thank you! In fact I guarantee you not a single one of them favors letting people catch COVID over getting a vaccine. In fact there are many reasons why it's important to study and exactly none of them are for this ridiculous scenario that people keep reposting. People keep posting those 'ridiculous scenario's' because that is what happens outside in the real world. You think the people stupid enough to take horse dewormer aren't capable of thinking "hey, natural immunity is good I'll just get some covid victims to cough in my face"? Let scientists do their science but keep that shit away from the general public because 'we' can't be trusted to handle it and its no use to us anyway. Back to mistrust/misinformation - I'm more concerned that there are reasonable people that are saying we shouldn't say things even if they are objectively true because the horse paste eaters might take it the wrong way. Especially when the "horse dewormer eating" thing was a narrative that was heavily trumped up by the media. For example: The NYTimes article that reported Mississippi poison control was inundated with calls about people taking ivermectin/horse dewormer, with 70% of their calls being related to ivermectin. The rest of the mainstream media from MSNBC to Huffpost and everyone in between repeated the story. Well weeks later the NYT came out with a correction that it wasn't 70%, it was actually 2% of calls. Not exactly what I would call inundated. Or the Rolling Stone article of the Oklahoma doctor that claimed gunshot victims were waiting for beds because the hospital was full of people overdosing on Ivermectin. Again, widely reposted by every media outlet, also found to be complete bullshit. Or the MSM casually reporting that Joe Rogan was taking horse dewormer medicine to treat his COVID even though he was taking ivermectin for human consumption prescribed by a doctor. I'm far more concerned when misinformation comes from the MSM and even reasonable and educated people buy into it. Natural immunity is clearly a pretty crucial part of any wider pandemic mitigation strategy and needs investigated. Knowing its potency will also assuage the fears of those who have been infected and have been unable to access vaccination. It’s something that can be relatively soberly discussed within a thread like this, as something that’s a neutral bit of information and how to address it. I think the last 8 pages of this thread has plenty of evidence that this is not true. But the reason I think this is a way bigger concern is because, in my opinion, this is primarily what drives people to the rabbit holes of anti-vaccine misinformation. Joe Rogan has millions and millions of followers. When it's obvious that CNN is lying about him taking a livestock medication his followers think "well it's clear they are pushing a narrative and can't be trusted." It's giving more ammunition to the conspiracy theorists. But that alone is not even the most concerning part. The part I find most concerning is that due to the hysteria around COVID and concerns about misinformation, people are becoming more and more convinced that the government should step in to restrict false info online even if it means limiting freedom of information. One poll showed that support of this idea went from 40% to 65% among one group in just the last few years. This is 10x scarier than anything I have heard about COVID. A small group of people that are stupid enough to eat horse paste is not much of a threat. The fact that the MSM can convince lots of people that the horse paste eaters are so numerous that they are taking up all the hospital beds and making gunshot victims wait is very scary when you realize it leads to people thinking the government should censor/control information. Why is that scary? When has it ever been a good thing when a government could determine what the truth was and control the flow of information to the masses? I think historically there are enough examples to say this is overwhelmingly more bad than good. I think it's a mistake to think you would want anyone to determine what is true/false for you. It's a much bigger mistake if that anyone is the government. Sunlight is the best disinfectant for bad ideas. So what do you suggest to deal with the lies and misinformation in current society? And considering that being able to freely spout said lies and misinformation has already led to a murderous insurrection in the case of Trump and god knows how many dead from Covid/Vax deniers.
I think the solution is in the education system. In higher education, citation and being critical to sources is absolutely crucial, but now, even 10-year olds need to learn to be fundamentally sceptical to information they find online and avoid being trapped in the comfort of confirmation bias and echo-chambers. Even governments can be completely wrong, but questions should be asked comparing with what other governments do, not dubious online sources.
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EPT
