EPTCoronavirus and You - Page 297
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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control. It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you. Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly. This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here. Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. | ||
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Hondelul
1999 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On November 30 2020 16:32 BlackJack wrote: COVID-19 just killed my Hawaii vacation just like it killed my Japan vacation earlier this year. Hawaii was accepting tourists as long as you took a COVID test within 72 hours of your flight and it came back negative. If the test wasn't resulted by the time you arrived in Hawaii you had to stay in your hotel until the test came back negative. A few days ago the governor decided that he wanted the test to come back before your flight even departed and if it didn't result before your flight you have to quarantine for 14 days even if the test comes back negative. Of course there is no logical reason for why you'd have to keep quarantining if your test comes back negative so it's obviously done just to disincentivize people from flying before their test is resulted. Anyway, I didn't find out about the rule change until late last night after I had taken my COVID test in the afternoon. My flight is tomorrow afternoon and I doubt my test will be back in time considering it was done over the holiday weekend. I still have a shot by rescheduling my flight to Tuesday morning but I don't know if I will make that window either. The backup plan is just canceling the whole trip and going to Cabo or Cancun. Thoughts and prayers for your troubled vacation plan. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15732 Posts
On November 30 2020 16:32 BlackJack wrote: COVID-19 just killed my Hawaii vacation just like it killed my Japan vacation earlier this year. Hawaii was accepting tourists as long as you took a COVID test within 72 hours of your flight and it came back negative. If the test wasn't resulted by the time you arrived in Hawaii you had to stay in your hotel until the test came back negative. A few days ago the governor decided that he wanted the test to come back before your flight even departed and if it didn't result before your flight you have to quarantine for 14 days even if the test comes back negative. Of course there is no logical reason for why you'd have to keep quarantining if your test comes back negative so it's obviously done just to disincentivize people from flying before their test is resulted. Anyway, I didn't find out about the rule change until late last night after I had taken my COVID test in the afternoon. My flight is tomorrow afternoon and I doubt my test will be back in time considering it was done over the holiday weekend. I still have a shot by rescheduling my flight to Tuesday morning but I don't know if I will make that window either. The backup plan is just canceling the whole trip and going to Cabo or Cancun. Tests can come back negative up to 10'ish days after being infected, so the correct way to handle this is for people to quarantine for 10 days and then get tested. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 01 2020 03:46 BlueBird. wrote: Your also facing exposure between test time and arriving in destination. There is no safe way to do it and Hawaii absolutely should be requiring quarantine. I'm certain we both agree that not many tourists would visit Hawaii if they had to stay in their hotel for 14 days and tourism is a huge part of Hawaii's economy. Is your conclusion based solely off your understanding of the negative health impacts of COVID-19 or have you also deeply researched the unemployment figures of Hawaii and the length of the lines at their food banks? The policy makers in Hawaii are surely looking at every facet of this pandemic and trying to make the best decisions for their state and the fact that the governor just changed the travel policy on the eve of my trip shows they are willing to adjust their policies as new information comes in which is a good sign. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 01 2020 01:12 LegalLord wrote: Thoughts and prayers for your troubled vacation plan. Thanks! I'll get over it  | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On November 30 2020 23:36 Slydie wrote: Indeed, but some countries actually has fewer excess deaths this year because of covid-19 measures. Death is such a taboo in today's society. People of all ages die horrible deaths because of a multitued of illnesses all the time all over the world, but we don't care unless we know them, identity with them or they were infected with covid-19. One thing which really scares me during this is how easy it has been to swing the public opinion for politicians. They blatantly contradict themselves, but people and media follow suit far too much, especially for controversial topics like closing schools, lockdowns, limiting the freedom of movement and shutting down travel and entire industries. We have definitely become a lot less accepting of death over time. I once read that over 100 people died constructing the Hoover Dam. I haven't really fact checked that but if true that's absolutely crazy to think of 100+ people dying to build 1 thing in 20th century USA. That would never fly today, which I think we can all agree is a good thing. The irony is that we've become so good at avoiding early deaths and so many more people are living to advanced age than at any other time in the history of our species, that it has made the lethality of COVID-19 even greater since the large majority of people it kills are senior citizens. | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On December 01 2020 04:30 BlackJack wrote: I'm certain we both agree that not many tourists would visit Hawaii if they had to stay in their hotel for 14 days and tourism is a huge part of Hawaii's economy. Is your conclusion based solely off your understanding of the negative health impacts of COVID-19 or have you also deeply researched the unemployment figures of Hawaii and the length of the lines at their food banks? The policy makers in Hawaii are surely looking at every facet of this pandemic and trying to make the best decisions for their state and the fact that the governor just changed the travel policy on the eve of my trip shows they are willing to adjust their policies as new information comes in which is a good sign. I give zero cares about the “economy” or tourism. We have plenty of wealth to support people in these hard times. If you care so much about unemployment and food banks in Hawaii cancel your “secondary” Cancun and donate your money to covid relief for the underprivileged. Do that and I’ll take your response seriously. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 01 2020 05:02 BlueBird. wrote: I give zero cares about the “economy” or tourism. We have plenty of wealth to support people in these hard times. If you care so much about unemployment and food banks in Hawaii cancel your “secondary” Cancun and donate your money to covid relief for the underprivileged. Do that and I’ll take your response seriously. Well thanks for clearly answering my question in the 1st sentence of your post. If you think tourism to Hawaii should not be open then your disagreement isn't with me but with the policymakers in Hawaii. If you feel you have better insight on a topic you have been thinking about for the better part of the past hour than the policymakers on the ground there that have been working on this for many months then I implore you to write to them and let your thoughts be known. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 01 2020 04:37 Nevuk wrote: Well, they can have tourism open for two weeks or they can have all their industries open for forever. It's a no-brainer, frankly. I think they're the only US state that has dropping covid rates now. They've been open for 6 weeks now although I understand you probably weren't being serious with that comment | ||
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BlueBird.
United States3889 Posts
On December 01 2020 05:45 BlackJack wrote: Well thanks for clearly answering my question in the 1st sentence of your post. If you think tourism to Hawaii should not be open then your disagreement isn't with me but with the policymakers in Hawaii. If you feel you have better insight on a topic you have been thinking about for the better part of the past hour than the policymakers on the ground there that have been working on this for many months then I implore you to write to them and let your thoughts be known. It’s actually best if I stand out of this conversation as I don’t really have anything nice to say on this subject. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
"David Beasley, Executive Director of WFP, said that the socio-economic impact of the pandemic is more devastating than the disease itself." https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/11/1077272 "COVID-19 could double the number of people experiencing food insecurity globally" "According to the Household Pulse survey, the number of parents with children younger than five who reported that their children weren’t eating enough is at a historic high." "The UN World Food Programme has warned that an additional 130 million people could face acute food insecurity by the end of 2020, because of income and remittance losses. This is in addition to the 135 million people who were already acutely food insecure before the crisis" https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/covid-19-food-insecurity-crisis/ It's not an either-or situation, it's a balance act between maintaining low levels of infections and keeping the economy running. Both needs to be weighed against the other, as both problems have similar potential for harm. We don't always know exactly which one is more important in all cases because we're not clairvoyant, but we can say that if we ignore the economic impact then far too many people will face a hunger crisis. And no, rich western countries are not safe from those consequences either. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
Side note regarding my vacation plans. Our COVID tests did come back last night and we could have booked a flight scheduled for the next morning but we decided against going because we learned CA is recommending a 14 day quarantine for anyone that returns after leaving the state. We are just going to socially distance in nature in some of the national parks around CA instead. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 02 2020 07:02 JimmiC wrote: Are we back to not understanding the economic impact of letting the virus run wild? Measures are good for the economy not the other way around. Such an incredibly vague statement is so meaningless that there's really no point in making it. As Magic Powers said: it's a balancing act. In the case of Hawaii, pre-entrance testing, masks, social distancing, surveillance testing, etc. are good measures for its economy. Mandatory quarantine for all tourists, as several in this thread have just advocated for, is not good for its economy. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28736 Posts
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 02 2020 07:41 JimmiC wrote: That is basically my point. You cannot prove that the measures are worse then letting the pandemic run wild. I think the later would be much worse. But what is undeniable is that measures save lives and long term issues. So you're willing to condemn a bunch of people to horrible outcomes, because you think it might be better for the economy. The logic makes no sense to me, I assume you just have not thought it all the way through. I would not characterize mandatory mask laws, pre-entrance covid testing, social distancing, traveler screening, etc. as "Letting the pandemic run wild" simply because it falls short of a full lockdown. Since Dr. Fauci says Hawaii can reopen and he's the leading expert in our country on COVID-19 I think the onus would be on you to prove that your "measures" are not worse for the economy than accepting tourists. In regards to whether I would condemn people to horrible outcomes if I think it is better for the economy: Obviously, yes. We literally do this all day every day. Life is full of risks. Unless you're a hypocrite you agree with this as well, the only thing we differ about is the degree. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
On December 02 2020 08:13 Liquid`Drone wrote: I mean, the economy does transfer into lives lost, too. I'm not gonna attempt to make a cost-benefit analysis or whatever, but there is a limit to how harmful a measure can be to the economy compared to how little that measure contributes to further covid spread before it becomes unwise to implement that measure. In theory, I guess you could get a reasonable ballpark from some calculation involving estimated years of jobs lost + decreased life expectancy for long term unemployment + increased covid infection numbers and death. Yes, exactly. I'm not going to pretend to make a cost-benefit analysis either, I'm simply referring to the advice of the experts. The WHO has said lockdowns should not be used as a primary preventive measure and instead used to reorganize overwhelmed healthcare systems. Dr. Fauci has said he believes Hawaii can safely reopen. The Hawaii government has been developing their policies for many months and are most likely trying to act in the best interest of their citizens. But people come to this thread and in 5 minutes think they can crunch the numbers of a cost-benefit analysis entirely in their head to determine that it's a "no-brainer" that Hawaii should keep it's tourism sector locked down and all these experts are wrong. As I said, the side that used to be about "listen to the experts" are becoming no less rabid zealots than the idiot anti-mask Trumpers. | ||
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