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Any and all updates regarding the COVID-19 will need a source provided. Please do your part in helping us to keep this thread maintainable and under control.
It is YOUR responsibility to fully read through the sources that you link, and you MUST provide a brief summary explaining what the source is about. Do not expect other people to do the work for you.
Conspiracy theories and fear mongering will absolutely not be tolerated in this thread. Expect harsh mod actions if you try to incite fear needlessly.
This is not a politics thread! You are allowed to post information regarding politics if it's related to the coronavirus, but do NOT discuss politics in here.
Added a disclaimer on page 662. Many need to post better. |
An update to the situation in Western Australia - Cafes and restaurants can reopen for dine-in from next week, school attendance compulsory from next week.3 cases past fortnight.
Much of the success should be attributed to the states hard border stance.All interstate and international travel is banned, citizens returning have a mandatory 14 day quarantine period.
These measures have been in place almost two months now.Life is returning to normal here, apart from the border which the premier states will be closed for four more months.
Also should be noted China has introduced an 80% tariff on Australian barley and has revoked 4 beef producers licences representing 35% of Australian beef exports to China.Media is stating that is likely due to Australian efforts in seeking the origin of Coronavirus.
https://www.scmp.com/economy/global-economy/article/3084062/chinas-restrictions-australian-beef-barley-seen-retaliation
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Retailers (malls) are opening this friday in Hawaii (same ol' social distancing practice etc). I actually went to T-mobile today to get a new phone: they treated that store like it was a bio-safety lab. I had to stand in a blue square while the dude wiped down all the phones before letting me look at them, but he quickly abandoned his tedious practice when he was showing me different cases towards the end lol. Still no dine-ins but nearly all restaurants are doing takeouts now. This feels like its gonna be the new norm for the next few months.
Also tourists are still coming in in surprising numbers. They're quarantined for 2 weeks then its basically freedom for them.
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On May 14 2020 06:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 04:56 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 03:38 Seeker wrote:
Don’t abolish handshakes. They’re too damn important to society. Instead, we need to evolve to the point where at least one party brings out a travel-sized hand sanitizer and allows all involved parties to use it before the handshake(s) can take place. There, problem solved. I suppose the question I am asking is: SHOULD handshakes be important to society? Or should archaic bullshit be consciously removed from our day-to-day routines as we learn more about the world we live in? Some people in Italy, Spain and Iran are probably asking themselves if it makes sense to kiss each other constantly now that we see so clearly what a difference that can make with infection. I'm not asking if the current convention is to handshake. I am asking if that is a worthwhile custom that we should try to hold on to. I say toss it in the trash. For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? I would guess he's as serious as the guy proposing handshakes be abandoned Is it that you have a reason for keeping hand shakes other than "but culture and precedent" or am I missing something? Covid is actively showing us there are downsides. What are the benefits other than "it would be weird not to"? My reason for keeping hand shakes are that there isn't a compelling reason to changing them outside of epidemics, and that your opinion is therefore arbitrary and ridiculous. If I say something has zero value, but a slight disadvantage, I think it is fair to say that thing should be eliminated. Until value is shown, I see elimination as the only reasonable option. Keep in mind other viruses are transmitted via handshakes, kissing and other ritualistic nonsense every day.
Handshaking no more so than opening a door, handling currency, touching anything on public transport.Better off just wearing gloves permanently if people are worried about such things.
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United States44316 Posts
On May 14 2020 14:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 13:30 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 12:26 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 11:36 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I suppose the question I am asking is: SHOULD handshakes be important to society? Or should archaic bullshit be consciously removed from our day-to-day routines as we learn more about the world we live in? Some people in Italy, Spain and Iran are probably asking themselves if it makes sense to kiss each other constantly now that we see so clearly what a difference that can make with infection. I'm not asking if the current convention is to handshake. I am asking if that is a worthwhile custom that we should try to hold on to. I say toss it in the trash. For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? I'm not superstitious about any arbitrary social customs. If we were to blindfold you and have you shake the hands of a variety of different individuals which traits do you think you could derive from the handshake? Could you tell, for example, when you’re shaking the hand of a Libra vs a Capricorn? One of the main points of the hand shake is the eye contact. On May 14 2020 12:27 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 09:41 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
I suppose the question I am asking is: SHOULD handshakes be important to society? Or should archaic bullshit be consciously removed from our day-to-day routines as we learn more about the world we live in? Some people in Italy, Spain and Iran are probably asking themselves if it makes sense to kiss each other constantly now that we see so clearly what a difference that can make with infection. I'm not asking if the current convention is to handshake. I am asking if that is a worthwhile custom that we should try to hold on to. I say toss it in the trash. For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? Is it that different than your take on ties? I was assuming he was claiming a greater degree of insight than my example of extrapolating from someone wearing a tie that they most likely deliberately chose to wear a tie and therefore are probably the kind of person who would choose to wear a tie, at least at times like the current one. Thereby again proving that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. It might be better practice to instead of making a cutting and condescending retort. You instead ask a question like " What sort of information to you expect to gather from the Hand Shake". If he says their lucky numbers and chance at love your Horoscope comment would work, but if he says what you said about ties, I'm guessing that would make sense to you. Not to mention there is a whole host of other options that he could say, certainly many that I would not be able to come up with. Much like in the other thread we are back to you picking the worst possible option and then being a jerk. It would be bad enough if you were a regular poster like the rest of us shlubs, but you would think a Mod would have the sense to not be such a jerk to another mod based on a negative assumption. The assumption was reasonable because Seeker isn’t an idiot and my assumption was that he was claiming something other than the most idiotic interpretation. I don’t think it was much of a reach to rule out the possibility that the insight Seeker was referring to was along the lines of “this person has hands”. I presumed it was related to their broader character because, from context, that makes far more sense. But apparently you’re replying for him now and feel a strong compulsion to insist that my assumption of his intelligence was misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, I think that he’s wrong about personality traits being identifiable from a handshake, that sounds like pop sci nonsense to me. But that’s still giving him more credit than what you’re doing when you imply that maybe he was just talking about deducing from a handshake whether the person had opposable thumbs. I know Seeker is not an idiot and I clearly was not talking or insinuating that he knew people had hands. Unlike you I am giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm not responding only because you are being a jerk for no reason, but also because I agree with Seeker, you can get some information from shaking someone hand and looking them in the eyes. Certainly more than you can get from the length of their tie.
Looking in their eyes isn’t something exclusive to a handshake. You can make eye contact with a Wakanda salute for example. So no, that’s not a part of this. If you’re making a case for the value of the information you get from gripping their hand that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to get if you didn’t grip their hand then the kind of information you’re after is touch based, not visual. You don’t shake hands with your eyes.
Given you’ve taken it upon yourself to argue this for Seeker (something I doubt he’ll thank you for), what kind of information about an individual do you believe you could get from a handshake but not a wave, elbow bump, Vulcan salute, and so forth? Concrete examples, something that would form a testable hypothesis. Something you believe you would reliably be able to identify given a sample population to shake hands with.
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On May 14 2020 14:40 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 06:42 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 04:56 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 03:38 Seeker wrote:
Don’t abolish handshakes. They’re too damn important to society. Instead, we need to evolve to the point where at least one party brings out a travel-sized hand sanitizer and allows all involved parties to use it before the handshake(s) can take place. There, problem solved. I suppose the question I am asking is: SHOULD handshakes be important to society? Or should archaic bullshit be consciously removed from our day-to-day routines as we learn more about the world we live in? Some people in Italy, Spain and Iran are probably asking themselves if it makes sense to kiss each other constantly now that we see so clearly what a difference that can make with infection. I'm not asking if the current convention is to handshake. I am asking if that is a worthwhile custom that we should try to hold on to. I say toss it in the trash. For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? I would guess he's as serious as the guy proposing handshakes be abandoned Is it that you have a reason for keeping hand shakes other than "but culture and precedent" or am I missing something? Covid is actively showing us there are downsides. What are the benefits other than "it would be weird not to"? My reason for keeping hand shakes are that there isn't a compelling reason to changing them outside of epidemics, and that your opinion is therefore arbitrary and ridiculous. If I say something has zero value, but a slight disadvantage, I think it is fair to say that thing should be eliminated. Until value is shown, I see elimination as the only reasonable option. Keep in mind other viruses are transmitted via handshakes, kissing and other ritualistic nonsense every day. Handshaking no more so than opening a door, handling currency, touching anything on public transport.Better off just wearing gloves permanently if people are worried about such things.
I have a reason to open a door, handle currency or touch anything on public transport. I don't have a reason to shake someone's hand other than cultural norms. That's the point. Covid is helping us see "Ah, so it turns out shaking hands was totally unnecessary to begin with" now that we aren't doing it.
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On May 14 2020 06:42 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 05:36 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 05:01 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 04:56 Sbrubbles wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 03:45 Mohdoo wrote:On May 14 2020 03:38 Seeker wrote:
Don’t abolish handshakes. They’re too damn important to society. Instead, we need to evolve to the point where at least one party brings out a travel-sized hand sanitizer and allows all involved parties to use it before the handshake(s) can take place. There, problem solved. I suppose the question I am asking is: SHOULD handshakes be important to society? Or should archaic bullshit be consciously removed from our day-to-day routines as we learn more about the world we live in? Some people in Italy, Spain and Iran are probably asking themselves if it makes sense to kiss each other constantly now that we see so clearly what a difference that can make with infection. I'm not asking if the current convention is to handshake. I am asking if that is a worthwhile custom that we should try to hold on to. I say toss it in the trash. For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? I would guess he's as serious as the guy proposing handshakes be abandoned Is it that you have a reason for keeping hand shakes other than "but culture and precedent" or am I missing something? Covid is actively showing us there are downsides. What are the benefits other than "it would be weird not to"? My reason for keeping hand shakes are that there isn't a compelling reason to changing them outside of epidemics, and that your opinion is therefore arbitrary and ridiculous. If I say something has zero value, but a slight disadvantage, I think it is fair to say that thing should be eliminated. Until value is shown, I see elimination as the only reasonable option. Keep in mind other viruses are transmitted via handshakes, kissing and other ritualistic nonsense every day. Covid is bringing attention to something that has been true for a long time. Just as we are learning about the value of WFH and other big issues from Covid, our social touching rituals can also be examined. And upon examination, I have still not seen a compelling reason to keep handshakes around other than an appeal to tradition. But appeals to tradition are formally considered fallacies.
Value has been shown. Overwhelmingly. You're just ignoring it.
Here:
https://greatergood.berkeley.edu/article/item/hands_on_research
https://www.nordiccuddle.com/post/7-signs-you-might-be-suffering-from-touch-deprivation
https://www.gracepointwellness.org/1434-positive-psychology/article/54518-the-importance-of-touch
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.khca.org/files/2015/10/8-Reasons-Why-We-Need-Human-Touch-More-Than-Ever.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj5zrTK4rLpAhW_BWMBHaPlD9IQFjAPegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw12kPPIsf1CwpTFraN2G1rq&cshid=1589439291202
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/jan/03/lets-touch-why-physical-connection-between-human-beings-matters
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2019/04/on-touch/586588/
Pick any one of those. I could have gone into Google Scholar and found the sources, or you can do some research yourself. But the positive psychological effects of touching are not something I just made up in this thread. They have been quite seriously researched. Ranging from the importance of hugging your children to the importance of team members celebrating a point together to the importance of greeting total strangers by touching them.
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I think there's a valid tension between the social aspects of contact greetings on the ~kiss-bow spectrum where discussing the benefits and risks is valid in relation to a "new normal"/living with this new virus (and the insights it has brought along) among us.
Personally I wouldn't miss handshaking going away. Not a fan of showing up to gatherings and dealing with people that think they are divining rods or the petty social pecking order stuff that often comes with it.
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On May 14 2020 15:19 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 14:38 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 13:30 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 12:26 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 11:36 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:
[quote]
For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? I'm not superstitious about any arbitrary social customs. If we were to blindfold you and have you shake the hands of a variety of different individuals which traits do you think you could derive from the handshake? Could you tell, for example, when you’re shaking the hand of a Libra vs a Capricorn? One of the main points of the hand shake is the eye contact. On May 14 2020 12:27 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 09:41 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:On May 14 2020 04:13 Seeker wrote:
[quote]
For me, personally, I like physical forms of contact when I meet and get to know a new person. And a handshake is often indicative of what kind of person you’re dealing with, so I think it definitely has a role in society that cannot just be ignored. Are you serious? Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? Is it that different than your take on ties? I was assuming he was claiming a greater degree of insight than my example of extrapolating from someone wearing a tie that they most likely deliberately chose to wear a tie and therefore are probably the kind of person who would choose to wear a tie, at least at times like the current one. Thereby again proving that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. It might be better practice to instead of making a cutting and condescending retort. You instead ask a question like " What sort of information to you expect to gather from the Hand Shake". If he says their lucky numbers and chance at love your Horoscope comment would work, but if he says what you said about ties, I'm guessing that would make sense to you. Not to mention there is a whole host of other options that he could say, certainly many that I would not be able to come up with. Much like in the other thread we are back to you picking the worst possible option and then being a jerk. It would be bad enough if you were a regular poster like the rest of us shlubs, but you would think a Mod would have the sense to not be such a jerk to another mod based on a negative assumption. The assumption was reasonable because Seeker isn’t an idiot and my assumption was that he was claiming something other than the most idiotic interpretation. I don’t think it was much of a reach to rule out the possibility that the insight Seeker was referring to was along the lines of “this person has hands”. I presumed it was related to their broader character because, from context, that makes far more sense. But apparently you’re replying for him now and feel a strong compulsion to insist that my assumption of his intelligence was misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, I think that he’s wrong about personality traits being identifiable from a handshake, that sounds like pop sci nonsense to me. But that’s still giving him more credit than what you’re doing when you imply that maybe he was just talking about deducing from a handshake whether the person had opposable thumbs. I know Seeker is not an idiot and I clearly was not talking or insinuating that he knew people had hands. Unlike you I am giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm not responding only because you are being a jerk for no reason, but also because I agree with Seeker, you can get some information from shaking someone hand and looking them in the eyes. Certainly more than you can get from the length of their tie. Looking in their eyes isn’t something exclusive to a handshake. You can make eye contact with a Wakanda salute for example. So no, that’s not a part of this. If you’re making a case for the value of the information you get from gripping their hand that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to get if you didn’t grip their hand then the kind of information you’re after is touch based, not visual. You don’t shake hands with your eyes. Given you’ve taken it upon yourself to argue this for Seeker (something I doubt he’ll thank you for), what kind of information about an individual do you believe you could get from a handshake but not a wave, elbow bump, Vulcan salute, and so forth? Concrete examples, something that would form a testable hypothesis. Something you believe you would reliably be able to identify given a sample population to shake hands with.
I don't get why you're being so condescening when there are plenty of psychological studies that clearly disagree with you:
www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/brainsnacks/201706/the-art-and-psychology-the-handshake?amp
https://www.psychmechanics.com/different-types-of-handshakes/
https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2000/07/hand-shake
So unless you have proof that those studies are false i'd suggest you learn some humility and accept that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not true.
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On May 14 2020 16:50 Slydie wrote:Sorry for not continuing within the subject, but this should be interresting. The first wave of a major immunity study in Spain just concluded. Here is a map with persentages of the population with immunty. Over all, 5% of the Spanish population has immuity, but there are huge differences between the provinces, ranging from 1,4 to 14,2%. ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/e5gs3bu.png) I have to say I find it disturbing that even the large country with both most cases and deaths per capita is still nowhere close to herd immunity. How do we beat this? Is it even possible without a vaccine? Source in Spanish https://www.lavozdegalicia.es/noticia/sociedad/2020/05/13/solo-5-poblacion-espanola-inmunizada-contra-coronavirus/00031589390951045212905.htm
It is, look at China. Unfortunately, EU's free movement (strength at peaceful times) is its biggest problem right now. Still, we'll beat this virus. Did we even have a vaccine against Spanish flu? And that virus is gone. 
I think with improved medical treatment, we can beat coronavirus even without vaccine. Even precisely knowing when to send a person to hospital is key. When to start a ventilator, etc. Not releasing a patient after 2 negative tests too quickly. We have history of worsening conditions, the virus is said to relocate to lungs, so that's why.
Edit: orange part looks like a boot. Time to kick the virus out? :D
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There is no free movement right now.
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The Spain data is indeed disheartening. Not only far away from a significant % of the population infected, but also an IFR of 1.16%.
Anxiety is taking over. The portuguese government gave companies two key helps, a layoff/furlough mechanism where companies only pay something like 20% of people's salaries and a government-guaranteed loan mechanism. The catch is that both require companies not to fire people for a few months after. We adhered to both mechanisms and got the layoff approved and the credit approved by the bank. The problem is that while the credit was approved by the bank, the entity managing government guarantees apparently has run out of cash (which is not supposed to happen, WTF?), so now the credit is in limbo.
Meanwhile, I don't know if I'll be able to return to operations this summer or even next fall. There is no guidance from health authorities yet. If I can't and there's no further government help, I'll be royally *****d, as will be all my employees. Plus, in the end if I have to ask for unemployment benefits, the value will be way lower due to the layoff. fml.
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German borders were closed until like yesterday, unless you had a special reason.
Couples living in Switzerland and Germany weren't able to see each other.
There was no free movement.
Austrian border to Italy is closed. Austrian border to Germany is said to be opened in June.
There is no free movement.
On May 14 2020 21:17 Velr wrote:
Couples living in Switzerland and Germany could see each other, if they got a clearing beforehand (and the agencies didn't take ages to give the pass)..
But yes, while it's not totally closed the situation atm is for sure not something anyone should call "free movement".
I stand corrected.
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Couples living in Switzerland and Germany could see each other, if they got a clearing beforehand (and the agencies didn't take ages to give the pass)..
But yes, while it's not totally closed the situation atm is for sure not something anyone should call "free movement".
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United States44316 Posts
On May 14 2020 17:11 InFiNitY[pG] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 15:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 14:38 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 13:30 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 12:26 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 11:36 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]Are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? I'm not superstitious about any arbitrary social customs. If we were to blindfold you and have you shake the hands of a variety of different individuals which traits do you think you could derive from the handshake? Could you tell, for example, when you’re shaking the hand of a Libra vs a Capricorn? One of the main points of the hand shake is the eye contact. On May 14 2020 12:27 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 09:41 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]Are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? Is it that different than your take on ties? I was assuming he was claiming a greater degree of insight than my example of extrapolating from someone wearing a tie that they most likely deliberately chose to wear a tie and therefore are probably the kind of person who would choose to wear a tie, at least at times like the current one. Thereby again proving that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. It might be better practice to instead of making a cutting and condescending retort. You instead ask a question like " What sort of information to you expect to gather from the Hand Shake". If he says their lucky numbers and chance at love your Horoscope comment would work, but if he says what you said about ties, I'm guessing that would make sense to you. Not to mention there is a whole host of other options that he could say, certainly many that I would not be able to come up with. Much like in the other thread we are back to you picking the worst possible option and then being a jerk. It would be bad enough if you were a regular poster like the rest of us shlubs, but you would think a Mod would have the sense to not be such a jerk to another mod based on a negative assumption. The assumption was reasonable because Seeker isn’t an idiot and my assumption was that he was claiming something other than the most idiotic interpretation. I don’t think it was much of a reach to rule out the possibility that the insight Seeker was referring to was along the lines of “this person has hands”. I presumed it was related to their broader character because, from context, that makes far more sense. But apparently you’re replying for him now and feel a strong compulsion to insist that my assumption of his intelligence was misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, I think that he’s wrong about personality traits being identifiable from a handshake, that sounds like pop sci nonsense to me. But that’s still giving him more credit than what you’re doing when you imply that maybe he was just talking about deducing from a handshake whether the person had opposable thumbs. I know Seeker is not an idiot and I clearly was not talking or insinuating that he knew people had hands. Unlike you I am giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm not responding only because you are being a jerk for no reason, but also because I agree with Seeker, you can get some information from shaking someone hand and looking them in the eyes. Certainly more than you can get from the length of their tie. Looking in their eyes isn’t something exclusive to a handshake. You can make eye contact with a Wakanda salute for example. So no, that’s not a part of this. If you’re making a case for the value of the information you get from gripping their hand that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to get if you didn’t grip their hand then the kind of information you’re after is touch based, not visual. You don’t shake hands with your eyes. Given you’ve taken it upon yourself to argue this for Seeker (something I doubt he’ll thank you for), what kind of information about an individual do you believe you could get from a handshake but not a wave, elbow bump, Vulcan salute, and so forth? Concrete examples, something that would form a testable hypothesis. Something you believe you would reliably be able to identify given a sample population to shake hands with. I don't get why you're being so condescening when there are plenty of psychological studies that clearly disagree with you: www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/brainsnacks/201706/the-art-and-psychology-the-handshake?amphttps://www.psychmechanics.com/different-types-of-handshakes/https://www.apa.org/news/press/releases/2000/07/hand-shakeSo unless you have proof that those studies are false i'd suggest you learn some humility and accept that just because you don't understand something doesn't mean it's not true.
Did you read your links? If not I recommend you read them and get back to me about which attributes (as opposed to perceived attributes) you could identify from a handshake.
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United States44316 Posts
On May 14 2020 16:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2020 15:19 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 14:38 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 13:30 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 13:13 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 12:26 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 11:36 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]Are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? I'm not superstitious about any arbitrary social customs. If we were to blindfold you and have you shake the hands of a variety of different individuals which traits do you think you could derive from the handshake? Could you tell, for example, when you’re shaking the hand of a Libra vs a Capricorn? One of the main points of the hand shake is the eye contact. On May 14 2020 12:27 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 09:41 JimmiC wrote:On May 14 2020 09:16 KwarK wrote:On May 14 2020 07:48 Seeker wrote:On May 14 2020 04:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
[quote]Are you serious?
Yes, I'm serious. And I thank you for contributing to this thread with a pointless one-liner. What other arbitrary social customs are you superstitious about? Is it that different than your take on ties? I was assuming he was claiming a greater degree of insight than my example of extrapolating from someone wearing a tie that they most likely deliberately chose to wear a tie and therefore are probably the kind of person who would choose to wear a tie, at least at times like the current one. Thereby again proving that when you assume you make an ass out of you and me. It might be better practice to instead of making a cutting and condescending retort. You instead ask a question like " What sort of information to you expect to gather from the Hand Shake". If he says their lucky numbers and chance at love your Horoscope comment would work, but if he says what you said about ties, I'm guessing that would make sense to you. Not to mention there is a whole host of other options that he could say, certainly many that I would not be able to come up with. Much like in the other thread we are back to you picking the worst possible option and then being a jerk. It would be bad enough if you were a regular poster like the rest of us shlubs, but you would think a Mod would have the sense to not be such a jerk to another mod based on a negative assumption. The assumption was reasonable because Seeker isn’t an idiot and my assumption was that he was claiming something other than the most idiotic interpretation. I don’t think it was much of a reach to rule out the possibility that the insight Seeker was referring to was along the lines of “this person has hands”. I presumed it was related to their broader character because, from context, that makes far more sense. But apparently you’re replying for him now and feel a strong compulsion to insist that my assumption of his intelligence was misplaced. Don’t get me wrong, I think that he’s wrong about personality traits being identifiable from a handshake, that sounds like pop sci nonsense to me. But that’s still giving him more credit than what you’re doing when you imply that maybe he was just talking about deducing from a handshake whether the person had opposable thumbs. I know Seeker is not an idiot and I clearly was not talking or insinuating that he knew people had hands. Unlike you I am giving the benefit of the doubt. I'm not responding only because you are being a jerk for no reason, but also because I agree with Seeker, you can get some information from shaking someone hand and looking them in the eyes. Certainly more than you can get from the length of their tie. Looking in their eyes isn’t something exclusive to a handshake. You can make eye contact with a Wakanda salute for example. So no, that’s not a part of this. If you’re making a case for the value of the information you get from gripping their hand that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to get if you didn’t grip their hand then the kind of information you’re after is touch based, not visual. You don’t shake hands with your eyes. Given you’ve taken it upon yourself to argue this for Seeker (something I doubt he’ll thank you for), what kind of information about an individual do you believe you could get from a handshake but not a wave, elbow bump, Vulcan salute, and so forth? Concrete examples, something that would form a testable hypothesis. Something you believe you would reliably be able to identify given a sample population to shake hands with. As I have said multiple times already the exact same type of information that you were talking about in your tie example. I also understand that making eye contact is available in other greetings, my point on bringing it up was you were talking about shaking peoples hands blindfolded. Which takes away some of the value of a handshake they are done in close quarters and generally last longer than fist or elbow bumps. It is also pretty well known that touch is important in conveying emotions and building relationships. Which is why some of those are not as good. If you go to shake someones hand and they refuse or someone comes to shake hands with you and you refuse do you not think that in both situations people are gathering information? Can you prove and provide something that would form a testable hypothesis on why any of the greetings you suggest are better than a hand shake? Can you provide any evidence that proper hand washing after a hand shake is more dangerous than a fist bump? Then perhaps you could do a risk reward analysis on the benefit's and risk. Or perhaps a SWAT analyses. I was not arguing that handshaking has incredible information gathering potential, I was arguing your claim that the hand shake provides no value, and more than that, it was wrong of you to assume the worst and be a dick about it. Which comes off horribly bad when in the same post where you were mocking that someone thinks hand shakes provide some information, you describe the information you would gather from a tie not being to societal agreed upon length, style so on. I really don't understand how you can think a tie can give information but a handshake cannot.
I note that you have not provided an example of an attribute you believe could be identified by gripping someone’s hand. If you cannot adequately explain your hypothesis then you should probably abandon it..
For anyone else feeling like the touch of handshakes gives information about the character of people that could not be gotten from a Vulcan salute, consider the test for this. Let’s say you get 200 strangers. 50 of them will shake hands with 100 subjects and describe those subjects as best they can based on the handshake. The other 50 will exchange Vulcan salutes with the same 100 people and record their observations. The observations are then evaluated for accuracy. Which attributes would be more reliably observed (reliably being a key word here, attributing a trait to someone is only useful if they actually possess it) by the handshake than the Vulcan salute. I doubt there are many. This is also where my point about the utter arbitrariness of ties comes in. I suggested that the only information you could get from a handshake was along the lines of “good firm handshake, this person is clearly either a person who naturally has a firm handshake or knows that society favours these and is doing it on purpose”. I, intending to show how meaningless that would be, compared it to the observation that wearing a tie correctly shows that you’re the kind of person who would wear a tie at an appropriate time. The reason that information about conformity to arbitrary customs is meaningless is because it uniformly applies to any arbitrary custom, the people who went to the trouble of learning to do a “correct” handshake can be reliably expected to do a Vulcan salute correctly when told they will be evaluated on it. The information is being misattributed to a handshake when what is being measured has nothing to do with it.
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