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On March 13 2019 10:18 JimmiC wrote:
I think to far in either direction causes problems. The reason Chavez was attractive because despite some wealth being there the poor were destitute and takin advantage of at every turn. Many people dont realize there is a huge cost to having your poor that desperate, including crime, violence and so on. You are also wasting all the potential from a huge population.
Im also just not personally ok with people being born without a chance at success. And thunk things like education and healthcare are mandatory for a successful society.
That's a reasonable position I can agree with.
I'm all for REAL education, but government funded (or worse, run) colleges are filled with useless degrees and useless institutions all together. Students waste their time and can't get an income later, and money is drained from the economy (government policies usually have explicit benefits but hidden costs that people must be aware of).
Morever it breeds corruptions, colleges and filled with politicians cronies and worse, they run on "free college" which is buying teenagers votes at the expense of the people who work.
For example here all business pay 19% sales tax. It breaks my heart when I buy fruit on the small business next to my gym and I see the guy's receipts (I always say "no need for receipt thanks"). That money is taken away from a poor guy and given to colleges so other kids I also personally know, can pursue degrees with no prospect income at an exorbitant cost. I find not only wasteful, but unfair and inmoral.
I think my country has, by chance, a very decent mixed health care system, I can elaborate on how it works later.
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Wow...
The meaningless title bloat is a main "feauture" of private schools that make up titles/degrees with no meaning so they can sell more courses. Public/goverment run schools normally have to insure certain standards and only give out state aprooved certificats.
How public schools are more prone to "corruption" than private schools is also a really strange argument. You do realise that you basically argue that the profit driven private Schools are less likely to accept payments than the non profits? In what world does this make sense?
You also don't seem to know how sales tax works? Because what your writing there is complete bs (assuming it works like in switzerland).
Sales Tax on products/services a company sells is only payed by the final customer. The businesses/reseller pays it on its purchases but on stuff it resells it can deduct these costs from its sales tax bill. This can often result in a payout for the company.
The reason for not giving out receipts has also absolutely nothing to do with the sales tax, thats done to dodge normal taxes on your earnings, whiteout a reciept there is no (easily visible) proof that you earned money and as long as you don't overdo it the goverment won't notice it. Btw: Its also illegal.
But go on, please tell us more how you make the world and your surroundings fit your political ideals.
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On March 13 2019 10:03 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 09:41 JimmiC wrote:
Corruption is authoritarianism, there is many democratic socialist countries in northern europe that are doing fantastic and have low levels of corruption. There are also many rightwing autoritarians whose countries are rife with corruption. Sadly corruption finds both left and right. Democratic socialist countries do not exist; it's a myth.
If it wasn't a myth, would you be in favor of it?
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On March 13 2019 22:30 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 10:03 GoTuNk! wrote:On March 13 2019 09:41 JimmiC wrote:
Corruption is authoritarianism, there is many democratic socialist countries in northern europe that are doing fantastic and have low levels of corruption. There are also many rightwing autoritarians whose countries are rife with corruption. Sadly corruption finds both left and right. Democratic socialist countries do not exist; it's a myth. If it wasn't a myth, would you be in favor of it?
Would you be in favor of flying cows? It's a baseless question.
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter.
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On March 13 2019 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 22:30 Nebuchad wrote:On March 13 2019 10:03 GoTuNk! wrote:On March 13 2019 09:41 JimmiC wrote:
Corruption is authoritarianism, there is many democratic socialist countries in northern europe that are doing fantastic and have low levels of corruption. There are also many rightwing autoritarians whose countries are rife with corruption. Sadly corruption finds both left and right. Democratic socialist countries do not exist; it's a myth. If it wasn't a myth, would you be in favor of it? Would you be in favor of flying cows? It's a baseless question.
Of course I'd be in favor of flying cows, that sounds pretty awesome. That's a pretty easy question to answer. And in the case of socialism, it's obviously not baseless, so why don't you entertain me for a second and answer it.
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On March 13 2019 22:17 Velr wrote:
Wow...
The meaningless title bloat is a main "feauture" of private schools that make up titles/degrees with no meaning so they can sell more courses. Public/goverment run schools normally have to insure certain standards and only give out state aprooved certificats.
How public schools are more prone to "corruption" than private schools is also a really strange argument. You do realise that you basically argue that the profit driven private Schools are less likely to accept payments than the non profits? In what world does this make sense?
You also don't seem to know how sales tax works? Because what your writing there is complete bs (assuming it works like in switzerland).
Sales Tax on products/services a company sells is only payed by the final customer. The businesses/reseller pays it on its purchases but on stuff it resells it can deduct these costs from its sales tax bill. This can often result in a payout for the company.
The reason for not giving out receipts has also absolutely nothing to do with the sales tax, thats done to dodge normal taxes on your earnings, whiteout a reciept there is no (easily visible) proof that you earned money and as long as you don't overdo it the goverment won't notice it. Btw: Its also illegal.
But go on, please tell us more how you make the world and your surroundings fit your political ideals.
This just shows your ignorance on basic supply and demand economics. Sales tax are theoretically payed by the final consumer, but if you have a 19% sale tax such as here, it means you are raising your products sale price by a whopping 19% causing you to sell a lot less quanitity and making less money (higher price = less sales). Not to mention increasing the price of goods in at least 19% to the final consumer isn't good either.
Moreover in my country you have to pay part of the sales tax upfront and deduct them later when purchasing stock, meaning it hits your cash flow and negates the possibility for bigger bulk purchases and forces you to pay money you don't have yet.
And we have it easy doing business compared to say, Argentina.
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Yeah, it hits your cashflow. No argument there. But at the end of the day the "poor small guy fruit vendor" is still not losing money.
Obviously you can argue against sales Taxes or their height, in Switzerland the highest rate is just 7.7% and food is just 2.5%, but you shouldn't clearly misrepresent how they work, thats just dishonest.
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On March 13 2019 09:41 JimmiC wrote:
Corruption is authoritarianism, there is many democratic socialist countries in northern europe that are doing fantastic and have low levels of corruption. There are also many rightwing autoritarians whose countries are rife with corruption. Sadly corruption finds both left and right.
Northern European countries aren't socialist. They don't follow a socialist economic model at all. They're mixed economies where the free market is used to fund the welfare state. The difference is that for example the Nordic countries follow sane economic policy (relatively low budget deficits, respect for private property, free floating exchange rate, generally no price controls etc) whereas Venezuela did the opposite. Corruption and oil alone hardly explain the fall of Venezuela. There are many countries which completely rely on oil and are incredibly corrupt which didn't collapse.
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On March 14 2019 01:31 Velr wrote:
Yeah, it hits your cashflow. No argument there. But at the end of the day the "poor small guy fruit vendor" is still not losing money.
Obviously you can argue against sales Taxes or their height, in Switzerland the highest rate is just 7.7% and food is just 2.5%, but you shouldn't clearly misrepresent how they work, thats just dishonest.
I'm not trying to misrepresent anything, but pretending the sales tax does not hit sales, cash flow or requires extra work/costs and a whole lot of other problems is just dishonest aswell. Glad both points of view got presented.
Switzerland is one of the most prosperous nations in the world and has been for hundred of years because it's one of the freer nations on the globe. I can only imagine how much better it would be here with a 7.7% sales tax and 2.5% on food; and I know that's just a narrow aspect of it.
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On March 13 2019 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter.
It wouldn't really derail the thread, capital P politics are quite important in south american politics in general. We could have an "interesting" conversation about whether your line of attack against socialism is honest, as it's pretty obvious to me from the views you have expressed on this forum overall that you are more closely aligned with fascism than with socialism. As such you wouldn't really care whether it's possible or not, since you'd be opposed to it happening either way. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really think that "socialism is impossible" is an important factor. And if so, that's interesting to me.
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On March 14 2019 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2019 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter. It wouldn't really derail the thread, capital P politics are quite important in south american politics in general. We could have an "interesting" conversation about whether your line of attack against socialism is honest, as it's pretty obvious to me from the views you have expressed on this forum overall that you are more closely aligned with fascism than with socialism. As such you wouldn't really care whether it's possible or not, since you'd be opposed to it happening either way. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really think that "socialism is impossible" is an important factor. And if so, that's interesting to me.
Well I'm aligned with the expansion of freedom and that includes economic freedom; I'd consider myself a libertarian conservative. I'm against government tyranny in latin america, which comes again and again as socialism in this continent. If a fascist state where to surge in this continent (something like Iran I suppose?) I would stand against it aswell, but it's just not a problem here.
Since I know you will bring up Bolsonaro, if the brazilian government starts hanging gay people for example (like they do in Iran), I will be the first to rail against him. I can assure you that won't happen.
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On March 14 2019 02:56 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On March 13 2019 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter. It wouldn't really derail the thread, capital P politics are quite important in south american politics in general. We could have an "interesting" conversation about whether your line of attack against socialism is honest, as it's pretty obvious to me from the views you have expressed on this forum overall that you are more closely aligned with fascism than with socialism. As such you wouldn't really care whether it's possible or not, since you'd be opposed to it happening either way. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really think that "socialism is impossible" is an important factor. And if so, that's interesting to me. Well I'm aligned with the expansion of freedom and that includes economic freedom; I'd consider myself a libertarian conservative. I'm against government tyranny in latin america, which comes again and again as socialism in this continent. If a fascist state where to surge in this continent (something like Iran I suppose?) I would stand against it aswell, but it's just not a problem here. Since I know you will bring up Bolsonaro, if the brazilian government starts hanging gay people for example (like they do in Iran), I will be the first to rail against him. I can assure you that won't happen.
Your usage of the word freedom is selective, as presumably some of your conservative views run to the opposite of that in terms of some equal rights. You can limit the freedom of gay people without hanging them, and if that's what would be required for you to stand against Bolsonaro, that's... not really how freedom works.
Latin american fascism has a rich history that you dismiss in that post but I can't do much else than say you're dismissing it, so I'll just say it and move on.
More interestingly, I think it's unarguable that a libertarian socialist state would be an increase in freedom over a libertarian capitalist state. Would you disagree with that statement?
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On March 14 2019 03:11 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 02:56 GoTuNk! wrote:On March 14 2019 02:49 Nebuchad wrote:On March 13 2019 22:57 GoTuNk! wrote:
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter. It wouldn't really derail the thread, capital P politics are quite important in south american politics in general. We could have an "interesting" conversation about whether your line of attack against socialism is honest, as it's pretty obvious to me from the views you have expressed on this forum overall that you are more closely aligned with fascism than with socialism. As such you wouldn't really care whether it's possible or not, since you'd be opposed to it happening either way. But maybe I'm wrong, maybe you really think that "socialism is impossible" is an important factor. And if so, that's interesting to me. Well I'm aligned with the expansion of freedom and that includes economic freedom; I'd consider myself a libertarian conservative. I'm against government tyranny in latin america, which comes again and again as socialism in this continent. If a fascist state where to surge in this continent (something like Iran I suppose?) I would stand against it aswell, but it's just not a problem here. Since I know you will bring up Bolsonaro, if the brazilian government starts hanging gay people for example (like they do in Iran), I will be the first to rail against him. I can assure you that won't happen. Your usage of the word freedom is selective, as presumably some of your conservative views run to the opposite of that in terms of some equal rights. You can limit the freedom of gay people without hanging them, and if that's what would be required for you to stand against Bolsonaro, that's... not really how freedom works. Latin american fascism has a rich history that you dismiss in that post but I can't do much else than say you're dismissing it, so I'll just say it and move on. More interestingly, I think it's unarguable that a libertarian socialist state would be an increase in freedom over a libertarian capitalist state. Would you disagree with that statement?
I strongly disagree. Being able to buy and sell goods excempt of government cohersion is part of being free. Morever, you really can't have other freedoms without economic freedom. Just look at any totalitarian state.
A libertarian socialist state is an oxymoron.
Your usage of the word freedom is selective, as presumably some of your conservative views run to the opposite of that in terms of some equal rights. You can limit the freedom of gay people without hanging them, and if that's what would be required for you to stand against Bolsonaro, that's... not really how freedom works.
I'm against all forms of discrimination. Most if not all government laws should apply to all human beings and no distinction should be made by race, sex gender or wathever else you can come up with.
I think libertarianism should be applied mostly on a political level, whereas conservatism pertains to personal, family and comunal level. Personally strongly oppose prostitution and drugs, but believe they should both be legal for example.
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On March 14 2019 03:21 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2019 03:11 Nebuchad wrote:On March 14 2019 02:56 GoTuNk! wrote:
Edit: I'd rather not derail the thread furter. More interestingly, I think it's unarguable that a libertarian socialist state would be an increase in freedom over a libertarian capitalist state. Would you disagree with that statement? I strongly disagree. Being able to buy and sell goods excempt of government cohersion is part of being free. Morever, you really can't have other freedoms without economic freedom. Just look at any totalitarian state. A libertarian socialist state is an oxymoron.
Well the arguments that you bring up in your disagreement apply to an authoritarian socialist state, and I would agree with you that this type of state would be a decrease in freedom when compared to libertarian capitalism. But I did specify "libertarian socialism", didn't I. I probably did that specifically so that those arguments wouldn't apply, don't you think?
You say libertarian socialism is an oxymoron, but that's just not true. It describes one of the three mainstream views within socialism; we have the one with a strong state, marxism-leninism and the likes, who are called tankies, and you aren't a fan of them. Then the democratic socialists in the middle, which is mostly where I stand, and below my position is that of anarchism, which can be and is described as libertarian socialism ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian_socialism )
Again I find it very hard to argue that this position isn't an increase in freedom over libertarian capitalism.
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Yeah, socialism is never corrupt, turns into dictatorships (if it didn't start with one) or coerces people who think differently by force.
Aside from that phrase, everything you say is spot on.
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Yes, leftist (sorry but it's mostly them) love to whine about US intervention, yet are completely silent about cuban military helping maduro for years.
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EPT
