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On April 24 2021 12:03 Archeon wrote:
Pretty simple, money. Larger RTS were pretty collectively flops within the last decade with the exception of Sc2, but even Sc2 couldn't compete with the big selling franchises.
I'd say consumer tastes changed. A change in consumer tastes can easily crush any genre. I don't think every company that made RTS games all of a sudden started making bad games.
Its a good move by ATVI to get out of the RTS biz. Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc.
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On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2021 12:03 Archeon wrote:
Pretty simple, money. Larger RTS were pretty collectively flops within the last decade with the exception of Sc2, but even Sc2 couldn't compete with the big selling franchises. I'd say consumer tastes changed. A change in consumer tastes can easily crush any genre. I don't think every company that made RTS games all of a sudden started making bad games. Its a good move by ATVI to get out of the RTS biz. Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc.
I wasn't intending to judge the quality of recent-ish RTS, just saying that they didn't really sell. I agree that consumer tastes have changed and that Blizz stopped producing them likely has to do with that. Especially when you consider that the games they did develop after d3 were in popular genres at the time. When I say that Blizzard didn't continue producing RTS because of money I'm not saying that they are a terrible company. They are a global player or part of a global player that likely made a business decision.
On the flipside while Blizzard's decline wasn't as catastrophic as f.e. Bioware's thanks to the large if temporary success of Overwatch and long term success of hearthstone, disasters like the WC3R release or the underwhelming reception of Heroes of the storm (and the d:i pr debacle) cost quite a bit of reputation and probably value. Atvi has closed multiple Blizzard studios in recent years and overall it does make one wonder if the way Manit0 describes wouldn't have kept Blizz in better shape than it is now.
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On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc.
Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please.
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On April 26 2021 10:14 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please.
He's probably thinking of a non-compete, though even if that's the case it's ultimately just a JJR post, don't try too hard to understand it.
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Northern Ireland27282 Posts
On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2021 12:03 Archeon wrote:
Pretty simple, money. Larger RTS were pretty collectively flops within the last decade with the exception of Sc2, but even Sc2 couldn't compete with the big selling franchises. I'd say consumer tastes changed. A change in consumer tastes can easily crush any genre. I don't think every company that made RTS games all of a sudden started making bad games. Its a good move by ATVI to get out of the RTS biz. Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc.
Is anything Activision does not a good move in your opinion?
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RTS can be the next lottery win as well as any genre. The thing that viewers love besides flashy actions is decisionmaking and strategic thinking.
I'm not sure what arcade games are played in sc2 right now but I'm sure there are 2-3 concepts who would sell pretty good if a game was made around it
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On April 26 2021 10:14 cha0 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please.
I believe he originally thought about the stay out of business clause and not NDA 
On April 26 2021 16:56 Harris1st wrote:
RTS can be the next lottery win as well as any genre. The thing that viewers love besides flashy actions is decisionmaking and strategic thinking.
I'm not sure what arcade games are played in sc2 right now but I'm sure there are 2-3 concepts who would sell pretty good if a game was made around it
According to Monk the coop is being more played than 1v1. So people like RTS and if you find the right recipe you can win.
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Not sure what your post has to do with mine outside of the HotS part. And reception is also player reception. Are you that esaantio troll again? Half your post is cursing and subjectively calling things shit.
LoL had functioning online mm, was f2p instead of one among hundreds of mods for a 7 year old p2p game with according graphics and ui. The limiting elements introduce players slowly to champions and mechanics, making the entry much easier and it's also much easier to get your friend to download a game, make an account and hit the queue button than finding an old game in a store and search for the mod you want with the version you want with players who are also noobs. To boot LoL released during a time where internet was much accessible and faster than back in 2002. There were dozens of reasons to play LoL if you aren't already a dota player and even if you are a dota player you might still want LoL because garena is a pain and it's still dozens of times better than the alternatives. You are vastly underestimating how much ease of access helps sell games.
Also I'm increasingly getting the impression that your point behind the "everything is shit part" is that skins sell. Yes they do, players like elements they can represent themselves with and the feeling that they get a reward after a game. What does that have to do with anything?
The reception of most MobA players I know to Heroes was "why should I switch?" Heroes came much later and didn't offer additional depth or really new elements outside of more maps. It was basically a fun mode for MobAs where a lot of the elements were designed in a way that moved power away from the players (shared exp, coop objectives). So most of the LoL players just kept playing LoL or played a fun mode in LoL and most of the Dota players sneered at a game that was even less mechanically challenging than LoL. Fighting with SMITE over the leftovers was definitely not what Blizzard designed the game for, so yes, the reception of the game was underwhelming.
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On April 26 2021 17:25 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 10:14 cha0 wrote:On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please. I believe he originally thought about the stay out of business clause and not NDA Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 16:56 Harris1st wrote:
RTS can be the next lottery win as well as any genre. The thing that viewers love besides flashy actions is decisionmaking and strategic thinking.
I'm not sure what arcade games are played in sc2 right now but I'm sure there are 2-3 concepts who would sell pretty good if a game was made around it
According to Monk the coop is being more played than 1v1. So people like RTS and if you find the right recipe you can win.
This is my impression as well. Team games are more appreciated these days than 1v1.
I'm thinking some sort of Moba with base building. I would play it 
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Who is constantly creating new accounts to post here? You can post with your own account you know. Not even trying with account names any more...
LoL is not great for more hardcore gamers but it's perfectly fine for more casual crowd (as numbers show).
DotA 2 was pretty crap upon release (still preferred to play HoN over it) but it didn't stop it from holding big tournaments, attracting the pros and it grew from there.
With CS you have to take into account where it's most popular (hint, it's not US) and you'll see why 1.6 has bigger numbers. It's mostly inflated by oldschool Russian internet cafes where they're playing it a lot.
Blizz games are getting dumpstered too and all of them are trending downwards. WoW is bad now and Classic/TBC are more popular than Shadowlands, which got a lot of attention for a few days but then it dropped to below of what was there before the expansion. More and more people will abandon WoW now that there won't be a new patches until August and I don't really see it surviving more than 2 years at this rate. Games like FF XIV take a big dump on WoW in terms of popularity.
What's surprising regarding the industry is the boom in adult titles. Now that Steam has allowed NSFW games on their platform, with the initial success of Subverse on Kickstarter and Steam and other such games being made, like Operation Lovecraft which has art designers from CoD and lead designer for the Halo series on the team it will be interesting to see how they fare and what their impact will be. After all, pron industry is huge and now that such stuff will show up on more mainstream platforms (they're even pushing to release on GOG in addition to Steam) perhaps we'll be entering a new era where you have fully professional and well funded studios working on adult games, which would be unprecedented.
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On April 26 2021 22:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 17:25 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2021 10:14 cha0 wrote:On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please. I believe he originally thought about the stay out of business clause and not NDA On April 26 2021 16:56 Harris1st wrote:
RTS can be the next lottery win as well as any genre. The thing that viewers love besides flashy actions is decisionmaking and strategic thinking.
I'm not sure what arcade games are played in sc2 right now but I'm sure there are 2-3 concepts who would sell pretty good if a game was made around it
According to Monk the coop is being more played than 1v1. So people like RTS and if you find the right recipe you can win. This is my impression as well. Team games are more appreciated these days than 1v1. I'm thinking some sort of Moba with base building. I would play it
I think DoW3 tried to hit that middle ground and failed miserably. But DoW3 also had a terrible map pool, mediocre campaign and was brutally punishing, so large grain of salt.
I think most RTS devs underestimate how many RTS people prefer PvE. Coop is imo more successful because you have a challenge you need to overcome instead of getting balanced by MMR to loose exactly 50% of your games. Many players play RTS to build a pretty city and control a large and powerful army, not because they need to compete in matches where 2 seconds of paying attention to the wrong corner of the map often end a 30 minute game.
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Czech Republic12133 Posts
On April 26 2021 22:22 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 22:01 Harris1st wrote:On April 26 2021 17:25 deacon.frost wrote:On April 26 2021 10:14 cha0 wrote:On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Not sure what you mean here, an NDA wouldn't have any effect on Frost Giant making games, and Frost Giant can definitely make any game they please. I believe he originally thought about the stay out of business clause and not NDA On April 26 2021 16:56 Harris1st wrote:
RTS can be the next lottery win as well as any genre. The thing that viewers love besides flashy actions is decisionmaking and strategic thinking.
I'm not sure what arcade games are played in sc2 right now but I'm sure there are 2-3 concepts who would sell pretty good if a game was made around it
According to Monk the coop is being more played than 1v1. So people like RTS and if you find the right recipe you can win. This is my impression as well. Team games are more appreciated these days than 1v1. I'm thinking some sort of Moba with base building. I would play it I think DoW3 tried to hit that middle ground and failed miserably. But DoW3 also had a terrible map pool, mediocre campaign and was brutally punishing, so large grain of salt. I think most RTS devs underestimate how many RTS people prefer PvE. Coop is imo more successful because you have a challenge you need to overcome instead of getting balanced by MMR to loose exactly 50% of your games. Many players play RTS to build a pretty city and control a large and powerful army, not because they need to compete in matches where 2 seconds of paying attention to the wrong corner of the map often end a 30 minute game.
They are billions is built on PvE, isn't? I don't get this 1v1 obsession of many people around here either - e.g. Artosis
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I think the team games were also more popular in WC3. 2v2 and FFA were extremely popular on ladder and I was super sad when they've reduced the number of 2v2 matches in pro games in WC3L. Was so awesome watching and cheering for your favorite duos and matches were more entertaining than 1v1 for me with more interesting strategies.
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Been playing They Are Billions lately. Lacks a lot of polish, but still is a modern RTS that did quite well, while still having a very small niche (solo hardcore PvE, you die quite fast if you make a mistake. Goodbye two hours of playtime). If it had coop, it would been a lot more successful imo, however I understand that syncing players while multithreading a ton of NPCs can be hard.
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STOP FEEDING THE TROLL.
It's Tappo, the deranged Blizzard shill, who has made dozens of accounts over the past years since being permabanned, all just to shill and waste your time.
Come on lads, you have enough internet experience to know better.
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On April 26 2021 10:58 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 08:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On April 24 2021 12:03 Archeon wrote:
Pretty simple, money. Larger RTS were pretty collectively flops within the last decade with the exception of Sc2, but even Sc2 couldn't compete with the big selling franchises. I'd say consumer tastes changed. A change in consumer tastes can easily crush any genre. I don't think every company that made RTS games all of a sudden started making bad games. Its a good move by ATVI to get out of the RTS biz. Classy move by ATVI to waive any kind of NDA to let Frost Giant make RTS games. I suspect Frost Giant is not permitted to make anything that competes with WoW, CoD, Overwatch, etc etc. Is anything Activision does not a good move in your opinion?
ATVI should have stayed out of esports entirely. They should've written a cheque to the best korean promoters of SC1 and had the best promoters with a proven track record run the competitive SC2 leagues.
SC2 esports prolly would not have been as successful as Brood War no matter what decision ATVI made. However, SC2 esports would've been 1000X better had ATVI and Blizzard stayed out of it completely.
James Naismith invented basketball. That's great, Naismith is a great designer of sports games. Does that mean he is as qualified as Donald Sterling and David Silver to run the best professional basketball league? nah.
On April 26 2021 09:35 Archeon wrote:
On the flipside while Blizzard's decline wasn't as catastrophic as f.e. Bioware's thanks to the large if temporary success of Overwatch and long term success of hearthstone, disasters like the WC3R release or the underwhelming reception of Heroes of the storm (and the d:i pr debacle) cost quite a bit of reputation and probably value. Atvi has closed multiple Blizzard studios in recent years and overall it does make one wonder if the way Manit0 describes wouldn't have kept Blizz in better shape than it is now.
imo , Blizzard started to decline after SC2:WoL came out. Blizzard convinced ATVI to sink more resources into SC2. ATVI agreed to a trilogy rather than the traditional base game plus 1 expansion. ATVI was expecting a bigger return from SC2 and didn't get it. That is when ATVI started small amounts of interference with Blizzard. Then , we ended up with Diablo3 and the real money Auction House with ATVI taking a % for themselves.
imo, that is where the decline began. As soon as ATVI saw the revenues from a majornon-WoW project .. and ATVI didn't like the results ... that is when ATVI started interfering.
On April 26 2021 23:43 jgfjjfghjfgh wrote:
Blizzard numbers are stable
Why do you guys keep on creating the same "LOL BLIZZ SUCK" Copy/paste posts?
They've gone from 37M MAUs to 30 M MAUs over the last 2.5 years. Blizzard's #s are slowly declining.
Claiming the world is coming to an end in 6 months is over the top. Claiming everything is perfectly fine is also off base. As an outside observer, I'd say what I've seen from Blizzard over the past two years is "concerning".
Keep in mind... ATVI's management team has pulled many rabbits ... out of many hats over the last 20+ years. So let's see if ATVI can help turn Blizzard around.
Interesting times.
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Korean esports made money. ATVI esports has been a money burning bonfire.
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EPT
