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On October 24 2018 02:17 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2018 23:34 Godwrath wrote:On October 23 2018 23:13 BisuDagger wrote:On October 23 2018 05:38 Excludos wrote:On October 23 2018 05:05 Plansix wrote:
I’ve seen and even heard a few equally uneducated, ignorant and uninformed commentaries on the subject. I have zero interest in the Democrats feeding that beast even a little bit. Just call Trump and the conservatives what they are: Hysterical fear mongers that are afraid of 7000 unarmed people walking across a desert. Last time a bunch of unarmed people crossed a desert a religion was born, so I understand the fear. On October 23 2018 05:32 mierin wrote:
Why is the US responsible for them in the first place? They have to walk all the way here, and can't apply for asylum in any of the countries along the way?
It's not fear mongering, it's just a little off (to me) to set a precedent of accepting mass migrations like this. A. People are calling this an invasion and you have the balls to not call it fear mongering..? B. 7k Immigrants is 0.5% of all immigration that happens yearly in the US, and 17% of all asylum immigration. Compared to what you're already taking in this is not that massive of an increase. C. "Why should we do anything? It's not our problem that they're in a shitty position. Don't make it my problem!" D. What happened to the best country in the world mumbo jumbo you guys keep spewing? Is that just for show? Is it only best if no one else gets to participate? To address point D: I'm thirty and through my years international opinion has always been this: "USA is bad for using forces to do X in another country that is under such bad conditions that people are fleeing (i.e. refugees). USA is bad because they don't want to accept waves of immigrants coming from countries with bad conditions." It's really tough because this opinion to me is basically: "Don't go out and solve the problem. It's not your country and you shouldn't be there. And also accept people for as long as this problem is going to persist." I'm not advocating that the USA invade or use military force anywhere, but do you see the issue? We have to accept the consequences of other people actions without being able to do anything about it outside the bounds of our borders. Can you specify what "problems" the US has solved that it gets criticized for? This. There seems to be this weird blurring of UN sanctioned humanitarian interventions, like Somalia, with UN condemned illegal invasions, like Iraq. People want to insist that the world doesn’t want the US to do shit that they ask the US to do because they don’t want to the US to do the shit they ask them not to. It seems clear enough to me, intervene when invited, but some people really seem to struggle with “how come it’s okay to do X when asked to do it when it’s not okay to do it at other times”.
I'd like to mention that the US invasion of iraq is basically the reason for the whole syrian war. So the whole refugee situation that europe had to deal with is because the US decided it would be fun to randomly invade countries, hang out for a decade and having a civil war, and then decide that that is no longer fun and leave.
The US doesn't go out and solve problems. They go out and make small problems or "not-my-problems" into big everyones problems.
People would be far more willing to accept the US "solving" problems if they had any history of success in that sort of thing. Mostly, US interventions seem to be about justifying all of the military spending that they are addicted to rather than solving problems.
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On October 24 2018 02:47 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:44 Excludos wrote:On October 24 2018 02:39 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:34 KwarK wrote:
GoTunk, how do you feel about Pinochet? Huh not sure what you wanna know about, so I'll give you a few bullet points and you can tell me what you wanna hear -Government murdering and torturing it's own people is bad. DJT has done nothing of this sort. Immigrant children being detained and separated from their parents with no plan on how to reunite them later, removing healthcare for a large part of the population, and Puerto Rico. That is, in order, torture, murder, and genocide. Just because it's done out of greed and/or incompetence doesn't make his actions any more ethical. The "Trump derangement syndome" is pretty accurate. Otherwhise reasonable people (I suppose) writing non-sense because of their hate-filled heart it's pretty amazing to watch. Comparing disagreement on policy with the government military kidnapping people and torturing them for information, sometimes killing them and disposing the bodies on the sea, it's just lunacy. Get some therapy.
If the policies are kidnapping children, removing healthcare from those in need and murdering thousands through incompetence and inaction then yes, those are not as worlds apart as you'd like them to be. You can't just hide your bad behaviour through "policy" and suddenly it's just "something one just disagrees on". Trump might not be ordering people to die, but his policies are murder and that's just as bad.
What, in your mind, is the difference in a hypothetical situation where a leader, say, outright murders 1000 people, or removing critical facilities from the poor and indirectly killing 1000 of them?
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United States43251 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:44 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:42 KwarK wrote:On October 24 2018 02:39 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:34 KwarK wrote:
GoTunk, how do you feel about Pinochet? Huh not sure what you wanna know about, so I'll give you a few bullet points and you can tell me what you wanna hear -Government murdering and torturing it's own people is bad. DJT has done nothing of this sort. -The Military Coup happened because people had to make lines to get food, and was widely backed by the general population and political establishment. The situation was similar to what happens in Venezuela today. -I do value the military coup calling up elections and leaving power peacefully, because dictators pretty much never do that. I was just curious how far gone you were. Thank you for indulging my curiousity. How do you feel about Hugo Chavez and Salvador Allende?
As a conservative I’m not much of a fan of Chavez. I prefer my change incremental. I’m not sufficiently informed about Allende to comment.
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On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works.
We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism.
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On October 24 2018 02:34 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:28 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:21 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:04 riotjune wrote:
Great so I live in a country of greedy and incompetent assholes now. Once a shining beacon of hope, premier advocate of human rights, and leader of the free world (were we ever? It’s good to pretend I guess) now doesn’t give a shit about anybody else cause we can’t “afford” to anymore. Gotta raise your kids to only watch out for number one now.
Wait if we fuck over other countries/people what’s to stop us from fucking over our fellow countrymen? Never mind it’s happening already. Proud to be americaan Don't listen or at least take at face value to Grumbels and his leftist anti-american narrative The US has done and does a lot of good in the world. Many many of us abroad, who have lived in actual leftist countries and face actual government tyranny, love America and follow the example of the founding fathers to the best of our abilities. So we should oppose the tyrannical, imperial nationalist President abusing federal power and impeach the political supreme court justice? Because Thomas Jefferson would be all about that shit. No. The US should not depose a democratically elected president because some very hate filled people like calling him names.
You don’t understand what impeachment means and I'm pretty sure they didn't read the post I wrote very well.
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United States43251 Posts
On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism.
A patriot aspires to improve his country because he loves it. A nationalist simply worships his country. Trump conflates criticism of America with opposition to America, he’s incapable of patriotism because he doesn’t understand it.
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On a patriotism note, I don't think you should be able to call yourself a patriot if you are so delusional or dishonest that you tell the American people the not-in-session Congress is going to pass tax cuts before the midterms and double down on it when called out.
But hey, lying and/or having a fundamental misunderstanding of how bills become law is just a core American value I guess!
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On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism.
If by semantics, you mean properly using as it is defined. Nationalism isn’t about loving your country. It is above promoting its dominance over other countries. It is an excuse for imperialism and to oppress anyone who does not support the actions over the government. When Trump uses it, he is talking about promoting American interests at the expense of other nations. This is the guy who said we should have taken the oil in Iraq, which is the cornerstone of imperialism. Invade country, take their national resources.
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On October 24 2018 02:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism. If by semantics, you mean properly using as it is defined. Nationalism isn’t about loving your country. It is above promoting its dominance over other countries. It is an excuse for imperialism and to oppress anyone who does not support the actions over the government. When Trump uses it, he is talking about promoting American interests at the expense of other nations. This is the guy who said we should have taken the oil in Iraq, which is the cornerstone of imperialism. Invade country, take their national resources.
The word nationalism had a big shift in meaning. In the 19th century, it mostly meant "Believing my people should have a nation", either if they were part of a multiethnic empire, or split between multiple smaller nations.
Nowadays, it means exactly what you said.
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On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) I really wonder if you have seen the stuff being put out by the GOP for the last decade.
Because this post kinda makes it seem like you don't support them at all, yet you do?
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United States43251 Posts
Remember when Jesus found all the business happening in the Temple and flipped a bunch of tables and was subsequently accused of blasphemy. Patriotism is flipping tables. Nationalism is branding the table flipper a blasphemer and insisting that he hates the religion.
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On October 24 2018 02:57 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism. If by semantics, you mean properly using as it is defined. Nationalism isn’t about loving your country. It is above promoting its dominance over other countries. It is an excuse for imperialism and to oppress anyone who does not support the actions over the government. When Trump uses it, he is talking about promoting American interests at the expense of other nations. This is the guy who said we should have taken the oil in Iraq, which is the cornerstone of imperialism. Invade country, take their national resources. The word nationalism had a big shift in meaning. In the 19th century, it mostly meant "Believing my people should have a nation", either if they were part of a multiethnic empire, or split between multiple smaller nations. Nowadays, it means exactly what you said.
Of course. A couple year ago I and others had a discussion with Bardtown about the rise of nationalism and that there was a point in history where the concept of a nation didn’t exist. He, high on sovereignty post Brexit, had a real rough time understanding his national identity was a construct. And he couldn't deal with the idea that the word nationalism had a shifting, changing definition over time.
Again, I blame all of this on humanities and civics being neglected in schools across the world leaving people unable to critical examine the garbage being severed to them by the internet. You would think with all the movies and video games about WW2, one of them would have reminded everyone that nationalism was the political drug of choice for the Nazis.
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But, but the nazis were socialist!
For every moron that didn't read up how Hitler overtook the party and purged every ounce of socialism in it. There is a reason Shapiro, Crowder & Co. Mainly discuss teenagers or "strangish" people and not actual historians or reknown intellectuals.
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United States43251 Posts
On October 24 2018 03:12 Velr wrote:
But, but the nazis were socialist!
For every moron that didn't read up how Hitler overtook the party and purged every ounce of socialism in it. There is a reason Shapiro, Crowder & Co. Mainly discuss teenagers or "strangish" people and not actual historians or reknown intellectuals.
Yet the one poem everyone knows about the Nazis is the “first they came for” one. What do they think happened to those people? They all had a Nazi party together at camp?
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On October 24 2018 03:12 Velr wrote:
But, but the nazis were socialist!
For every moron that didn't read up how Hitler overtook the party and purged every ounce of socialism in it. There is a reason Shapiro, Crowder & Co. Mainly discuss teenagers or "strangish" people and not actual historians or reknown intellectuals.
Just think about attend Harvard Law School and leaving less informed about recent history and civics than a guy with a BA in history from middle tier state school. Because that is Ben Shapiro in a nutshell. Now, one could argue that he knows better and it’s all a performance. But why believe that when you can just assume he is as ignorant as the non-sense he says out loud?
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On October 24 2018 02:57 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism. If by semantics, you mean properly using as it is defined. Nationalism isn’t about loving your country. It is above promoting its dominance over other countries. It is an excuse for imperialism and to oppress anyone who does not support the actions over the government. When Trump uses it, he is talking about promoting American interests at the expense of other nations. This is the guy who said we should have taken the oil in Iraq, which is the cornerstone of imperialism. Invade country, take their national resources. The word nationalism had a big shift in meaning. In the 19th century, it mostly meant "Believing my people should have a nation", either if they were part of a multiethnic empire, or split between multiple smaller nations. Nowadays, it means exactly what you said.
It is frustrating how -ism words can change and be used for different things in different contexts. Histories/myths about how countries were created or unified are celebrated all over the world. They are very important for National and personal identity, and I find it very hard to argue they are not nationalism/nationalism. The same would go for celebrating and loving the geography, landmarks or culture of a country. I find nothing wrong with it. Liking something does not mean hating something else.
Using the word nationalism negatively is a huge advantage for the far right, as they can claim the more traditional posetive meaning of the word for themselves.
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On October 24 2018 04:09 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2018 02:57 Simberto wrote:On October 24 2018 02:55 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:50 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:46 Plansix wrote:On October 24 2018 02:32 GoTuNk! wrote:On October 24 2018 02:24 Plansix wrote:
Our president stood on a stage and said he was a Nationalist and that was good. A Nationalist, by modern definition, is someone who prizes the culture and interests their nation as opposed to those of other nations. Which is associated with Nazism, due to the promotion of national interests at the expense of other, often neighboring, nations. The slow march of accepting overt talks nationalism into the public discourse should really worry people. After all, the famous and improperly attributed quote goes like this: “When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” No. Loving your country, it's principles and your flag and w/e has NOTHING to do with murdering people from other countries or discriminating by the colour of your skin. The US is the most ethnically diverse country on earth, people from all ethnicities can unite and under common principles and a sence of belonging. This has NOTHING to do with Nazism. If you want people to worry about something, I would recommend as a first step to stop name calling people who you disagree with you or simply don't like. ( Nazi Racist Sexist Homophobic Bigot) Nationalism isn't about loving your country. Patriotism is. That is why we have two different words, because they mean different things. Nationalism has everything to do with Nazism because the Nazis championed Nationalism. You can't divorce them from the thing they championed. That isn't how history works. We are just arguing semantics then. I'm quite sure DJT feels strongly about patriotism under your definition; if I can mix them up he certainly can. I would suggest you to listen the phrase in context, it's pretty clear he is referring to what you call patriotism. If by semantics, you mean properly using as it is defined. Nationalism isn’t about loving your country. It is above promoting its dominance over other countries. It is an excuse for imperialism and to oppress anyone who does not support the actions over the government. When Trump uses it, he is talking about promoting American interests at the expense of other nations. This is the guy who said we should have taken the oil in Iraq, which is the cornerstone of imperialism. Invade country, take their national resources. The word nationalism had a big shift in meaning. In the 19th century, it mostly meant "Believing my people should have a nation", either if they were part of a multiethnic empire, or split between multiple smaller nations. Nowadays, it means exactly what you said. It is frustrating how -ism words can change and be used for different things in different contexts. Histories/myths about how countries were created or unified are celebrated all over the world. They are very important for National and personal identity, and I find it very hard to argue they are not nationalism/nationalism. The same would go for celebrating and loving the geography, landmarks or culture of a country. I find nothing wrong with it. Liking something does not mean hating something else. Using the word nationalism negatively is a huge advantage for the far right, as they can claim the more traditional posetive meaning of the word for themselves.
Equally frustrating is the lionization of historical ignorance, willing or otherwise, to the modern usage of the word nationalism by fascist and Nazis. The pride people take in being unaware of the history of that word and its usage is framed as unencumbered wisdom, free of historical burdens. It is nothing of the sort. It is the championing of willful ignorance backed by unearned confidence. It is the final solution promised to people who say that the words “fascist” and “Nazis” are used to often and misapplied. That they are crying wolf and there is nothing to fear. We have reached the point where our political leaders are openly advocating for political foundation of the Nazism, nationalism, and the refrain continues as if nothing has changed.
When folks argue it is a gift to the right that their opponents keep bringing up Nazis and racist, it is easy to see what the goal with the context above. The people who want to advocate for nationalism don’t want the comparison because they want some of the things the fascists advocated for. And they want to get as far as they can before people truly catch on.
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Nationalism can be coupled with liberation movements. I think an Irishman in the 19th century could easily equate the creation of an Irish nation state with freedom from the British, so could Indians in the 20th century.
And to be honest, while nationalism in the Netherlands conjures images of nazism, patriotism conjures images of chauvinist French or Americans who obsess about the greatness of their own country too much. I myself don’t have any love for the Netherlands, and I’d estimate that overt reverence for one’s own country would be considered a bit gauche in polite society.
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On October 24 2018 04:30 Grumbels wrote:
Nationalism can be coupled with liberation movements. I think an Irishman in the 19th century could easily equate the creation of an Irish nation state with freedom from the British, so could Indians in the 20th century.
And to be honest, while nationalism in the Netherlands conjures images of nazism, patriotism conjures images of chauvinist French or Americans who obsess about the greatness of their own country too much. I myself don’t have any love for the Netherlands, and I’d estimate that overt reverence for one’s own country would be considered a bit gauche in polite society.
That reading of "nationalism" only makes sense in the context of something that is not currently a nation. As soon as you are a nation, that nationalism doesn't make sense. For example, there could be a texan nationalist movement which wants texas to be a nation independent from other nations. That makes sense, because they currently aren't. Or a kurdish nationalist movement. It doesn't make sense to have a norwegian nationalist movement that wants to make norway into a country, because norway is a country already. A norwegian nationalist movement can only exist in the modern sense of the word, meaning "We want our nation to be bigger and stronger and to beat up other nations and people who we don't think belong into our nation"
I agree that patriotism also conjures some pretty negative images to me, mostly because it requires such a strong identification with the nation to be reasonable. And i find such an identification with the nation problematic, because it immediately excludes others which are not within that nation, and it is very hard to identify so strong and positive identification with a nation without coming to the conclusion that other nations (and the people therein) must be worse. I generally prefer a more holistic approach, and don't see lines on a map as that important to my identity. As such, i tend to think more about humanity as a whole as the thing i am part of, and i don't think that "German" is the most defining attribute that i have.
However, i don't find it necessarily wrong to see the positive within ones own country. I have come to the conclusion that Germany is a pretty nice place to live in, and generally has a government setup which seems to work comparatively pretty well, and which is ethically acceptable. As such, i like living here. I will also try to make living here better, as far as it is within my power, but not specifically to make Germany better, but as most of my efforts of making the world as a whole better by influencing my proximity.
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United Kingdom20321 Posts
Nothing wrong with being proud of your country or what it stands for
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EPT
