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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 05 2018 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 06:03 Adreme wrote:
The US cannot default on its debt. It is literally unconstitutional to do so, so that is not really a concern. Violating the Constitution has never slowed anyone down in government. Especially when it comes to not paying a bill. We are more than capable of default on the debt. All we need to do is not raise the debt ceiling and we default.
I don't see how not raising the debt ceiling on time would cause default, since we've done it before and that doesn't happen. it just results in a spending freeze on everything but the debt service (and maybe some other stuff).
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the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
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On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh?
i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt.
my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen.
and when it does, the government suspends its operations.
that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments.
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On April 05 2018 10:41 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh? i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt. my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen. and when it does, the government suspends its operations. that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments.
Then the debt ceiling was passed by before, they were able to move money around to pay the interest on the debt and debt obligations. Shutting down the government frees up money to do that. That cannot always happen, which is why it is a risk.
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United States43403 Posts
On April 05 2018 10:41 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh? i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt. my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen. and when it does, the government suspends its operations. that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments.
They can't furlough all their employees indefinitely.
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On April 05 2018 10:51 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 10:41 zlefin wrote:On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh? i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt. my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen. and when it does, the government suspends its operations. that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments. They can't furlough all their employees indefinitely.
Why not? It already seems like a lot of people are willing to leave, maybe that's the end game.
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On April 05 2018 05:41 A3th3r wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 05:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The US can default on the national debt. Unfortunately China will be angry and will probably slap USA with what a real trade war will look like, and no one will finance US bonds again, unless there is another global financial crisis, which to be fair there would be another one. So it's a genius plan in some ways. Other the mass human suffering of another reccession. But a business that exists to make money doesn't care about that. Which a nation should not be. And that I don't think he has the power to default unilaterally. The US isn't in any danger of that happening. I think you over-estimate China and under-estimate the US. The US still has the strongest economy in the world, as it has had since World War II. That being said, definitely there are still some trouble spots & things that could be better than they are right now, for sure. For example, I heard that U.S. Steel stocks went up on the news that Trump was putting a tariff on steel (makes sense). Well, that tariff may or may not happen, so now U.S. Steel stocks have been fluctuating based on what's happening in the news. That's not good. They certainly shouldn't be so responsive to what is going on in the world of the news. While getting trained in on a new skill at work, I heard about the whole U.S. Steel thing.
Why are you talking about US Steel? It is literally one company in the USA, and not even a particularily large one? If you wanted to talk about US Steel stocks you are free to do so, but not to just randomly quote me and tack it on to something totally irrelevant. Unless you are parodying Trump's totally random childlike style of speech, in which case, good one you sure got me...
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On April 05 2018 05:41 A3th3r wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 05:06 Emnjay808 wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 KwarK wrote:
I’m baffled that after a year and a half Trump still doesn’t know what a trade deficit is. One more term in office and he’ll get the hang of it. I’m sure. I see Trump as a one-term president. I'm guessing the guy will probably never really get the hang of the whole media pr relations game. When you're president you're supposed to steer the ship from behind the scenes as George H.W. Bush did. The guy spends too much time catering to his cronies that donated to his political campaign when he was running for president. edit: Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 05:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The US can default on the national debt. Unfortunately China will be angry and will probably slap USA with what a real trade war will look like, and no one will finance US bonds again, unless there is another global financial crisis, which to be fair there would be another one. So it's a genius plan in some ways. Other the mass human suffering of another reccession. But a business that exists to make money doesn't care about that. Which a nation should not be. And that I don't think he has the power to default unilaterally. The US isn't in any danger of that happening. I think you over-estimate China and under-estimate the US. The US still has the strongest economy in the world, as it has had since World War II. That being said, definitely there are still some trouble spots & things that could be better than they are right now, for sure. For example, I heard that U.S. Steel stocks went up on the news that Trump was putting a tariff on steel (makes sense). Well, that tariff may or may not happen, so now U.S. Steel stocks have been fluctuating based on what's happening in the news. That's not good. They certainly shouldn't be so responsive to what is going on in the world of the news. While getting trained in on a new skill at work, I heard about the whole U.S. Steel thing.
One of the reasons the US has a strong economy is the AAA credit score. lose that (vis a vis default on debt ceiling) and things arent quite as rosy. the US government is a massive engine of economic production, if its financing terms worsen, or worse if the well dries up that will have a big effect on the economy.
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On April 06 2018 00:04 Trainrunnef wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 05:41 A3th3r wrote:On April 05 2018 05:06 Emnjay808 wrote:On April 05 2018 03:33 KwarK wrote:
I’m baffled that after a year and a half Trump still doesn’t know what a trade deficit is. One more term in office and he’ll get the hang of it. I’m sure. I see Trump as a one-term president. I'm guessing the guy will probably never really get the hang of the whole media pr relations game. When you're president you're supposed to steer the ship from behind the scenes as George H.W. Bush did. The guy spends too much time catering to his cronies that donated to his political campaign when he was running for president. edit: On April 05 2018 05:30 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
The US can default on the national debt. Unfortunately China will be angry and will probably slap USA with what a real trade war will look like, and no one will finance US bonds again, unless there is another global financial crisis, which to be fair there would be another one. So it's a genius plan in some ways. Other the mass human suffering of another reccession. But a business that exists to make money doesn't care about that. Which a nation should not be. And that I don't think he has the power to default unilaterally. The US isn't in any danger of that happening. I think you over-estimate China and under-estimate the US. The US still has the strongest economy in the world, as it has had since World War II. That being said, definitely there are still some trouble spots & things that could be better than they are right now, for sure. For example, I heard that U.S. Steel stocks went up on the news that Trump was putting a tariff on steel (makes sense). Well, that tariff may or may not happen, so now U.S. Steel stocks have been fluctuating based on what's happening in the news. That's not good. They certainly shouldn't be so responsive to what is going on in the world of the news. While getting trained in on a new skill at work, I heard about the whole U.S. Steel thing. One of the reasons the US has a strong economy is the AAA credit score. lose that (vis a vis default on debt ceiling) and things arent quite as rosy. the US government is a massive engine of economic production, if its financing terms worsen, or worse if the well dries up that will have a big effect on the economy.
I thought the US had a AA credit score? didn't it get dropped awhile ago?
looking it up, I guess only one agency downgraded the score, the others left it at triplea; at least as of the last time stuff i'm looking at was updated.
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Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own.
New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.com
Shooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses.
User was warned for this post.
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On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. Show nested quote +New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses.
Or at least recognize that police aren't heroic. If you are armed and given authority to kill as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, you aren't brave or a hero. The odds are always in your favor.
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On April 05 2018 10:41 zlefin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh? i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt. my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen. and when it does, the government suspends its operations. that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments.
Think of it like not eating. Skip a meal, that's fine. Skip a couple meals or don't eat for a day or two, maybe you're hungry but you're okay. More than that though, and you start feeling crappy - you can't really exert yourself, your stamina is crap. You can keep going (there have been cases of people lasting over a month, though unsure how reliable those reports are) if you just minimize your physical activity and sleep, but even that goes so far. Eventually you do serious and lasting harm to yourself, and then you die.
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On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. Show nested quote +New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses.
You keep telling us to abolish the police, but no-one's going to abolish the police.
The problem with this no compromises, all or nothing kind of demand is that it guarantees perpetual inaction.
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On April 06 2018 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. Or at least recognize that police aren't heroic. If you are armed and given authority to kill as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, you aren't brave or a hero. The odds are always in your favor.
We're still really far from it being treated like the murder/manslaughter it is, but jfc it would be nice for this to at least be viewed as a fuck up from the police and officers involved and that they are dangerous to the community in such a position. There's practically 0 chance at least 1 of the officers involved doesn't have a previous case on them for doing something similar.
On April 06 2018 01:13 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. You keep telling us to abolish the police, but no-one's going to abolish the police. The problem with this no compromises, all or nothing kind of demand is that it guarantees perpetual inaction.
A few people, IgnE comes to mind, as well as a couple others who's tag slips my mind at the moment understand what I'm talking about. One doesn't have to be for abolishing the police, but they have to accept that they are enabling these atrocities if they aren't.
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On April 06 2018 01:11 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2018 10:41 zlefin wrote:On April 05 2018 09:23 ticklishmusic wrote:
the government runs at a deficit, therefore it must be able to issue new debt in order to fund its operations as well as debt service. if the government isn't able to do that, then it's in default because it's not paying it's debt as it matures.
the government is effectively constantly refinancing itself as x year T notes become due. if it's debt limit isn't increased, it can't do that.
huh? i'm not seeing your point. I don't know why you're talking about the government not paying its debt. my point is that: a) it's already happened, several times, therefore we know what will happen. and when it does, the government suspends its operations. that saves enough money (temporarily) to let the rest of revenue cover the debt payments. Think of it like not eating. Skip a meal, that's fine. Skip a couple meals or don't eat for a day or two, maybe you're hungry but you're okay. More than that though, and you start feeling crappy - you can't really exert yourself, your stamina is crap. You can keep going (there have been cases of people lasting over a month, though unsure how reliable those reports are) if you just minimize your physical activity and sleep, but even that goes so far. Eventually you do serious and lasting harm to yourself, and then you die.
you don't seem to be paying attention to what i'm writing at all, and are arguing irrelevant side points, rather than paying attention to the argument I actually made. please don't do that, it's very annoying and frustrating when people ignore what you're writing.
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New York has one of the police departments that seems to be working towards reform. We will have to see if they can back that up when it matters, because this one looks inexcusable. Even if a jury won’t convict this officer, I cannot see justification to keep him as a police officer with the current fact set.
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On April 06 2018 01:17 Plansix wrote:
New York has one of the police departments that seems to be working towards reform. We will have to see if they can back that up when it matters, because this one looks inexcusable. Even if a jury won’t convict this officer, I cannot see justification to keep him as a police officer with the current fact set.
No, they really aren't. They gave the cop that murdered Eric Garner a raise and put the person that filmed it in jail (for something else they were able to get him for).
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On April 06 2018 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. Or at least recognize that police aren't heroic. If you are armed and given authority to kill as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, you aren't brave or a hero. The odds are always in your favor. We're still really far from it being treated like the murder/manslaughter it is, but jfc it would be nice for this to at least be viewed as a fuck up from the police and officers involved and that they are dangerous to the community in such a position. There's practically 0 chance at least 1 of the officers involved doesn't have a previous case on them for doing something similar. Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 01:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. You keep telling us to abolish the police, but no-one's going to abolish the police. The problem with this no compromises, all or nothing kind of demand is that it guarantees perpetual inaction. A few people, IgnE comes to mind, as well as a couple others who's tag slips my mind at the moment understand what I'm talking about. One doesn't have to be for abolishing the police, but they have to accept that they are enabling these atrocities if they aren't.
They aren't just enabling the atrocities, the structure, training and culture of the police is responsible for the atrocities.
These are problems that can be attacked one by one systematically if the government wants to though. No need to abolish anything imo.
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On April 06 2018 01:26 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2018 01:15 GreenHorizons wrote:On April 06 2018 01:10 Mohdoo wrote:On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. Or at least recognize that police aren't heroic. If you are armed and given authority to kill as soon as you are slightly uncomfortable, you aren't brave or a hero. The odds are always in your favor. We're still really far from it being treated like the murder/manslaughter it is, but jfc it would be nice for this to at least be viewed as a fuck up from the police and officers involved and that they are dangerous to the community in such a position. There's practically 0 chance at least 1 of the officers involved doesn't have a previous case on them for doing something similar. On April 06 2018 01:13 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 06 2018 01:07 GreenHorizons wrote:Abolish the police, disarm them and most of them will leave on their own. New York City police officers shot and killed a black man who was known to be mentally ill on a Brooklyn street corner on Wednesday afternoon after he pointed what the officers claim they thought was a gun at them, the authorities said. The object, however, turned out to be a metal pipe with a knob on it.
[Angie described Mr. Vassell as a quiet man who often sat outside near a barbershop and sometimes worked odd jobs at her beauty salon for a few dollars.
“He would just walk and bob his head,” she said. “If we ask him to do our chores, he’d come and do it.”
Rocky Brown, 45, who knew him for years, said he was a friendly man who was mentally ill.
“He’s harmless,” Mr. Brown said. “A very willing guy, a very nice guy, a good guy.”
Betty Weaver, 71, said Mr. Vassell would often greet her when she was on her way to church.
Another woman, Nicole Williams, said she had given him $2 earlier on Wednesday afternoon. His last words to her, she said, were “Thank you, God.”] moved this section to the top
The shooting drew a tense, charged crowd of dozens to the streets of Crown Heights. The Police Department had encountered the man before and classified him as emotionally disturbed, and the shooting raised questions about what the officers at the scene knew about him.
four of the officers — the three in street clothes and one uniformed officer — fired 10 bullets in all. The man, identified by his father as Saheed Vassell, 34, was pronounced dead after being taken to Kings County Medical Center.
In an interview at his home late Wednesday night, Mr. Vassell’s father, Eric Vassell, said his son had bipolar disorder and had been admitted to the hospital multiple times in recent years, sometimes after encounters with the police. The younger Mr. Vassell, who was born in Jamaica and came to the United States when he was 6, lived with his family in a Crown Heights apartment and had worked as a welder. He also had a 15-year-old son.
Mr. Vassell’s father said he had never seen his son act as if he had a gun.
He would “just walk around the neighborhood and help people,” the father said.
Area residents said Mr. Vassell was a familiar figure on the corner and a caring father who begged for money in a nearby subway station and did odd jobs for shopkeepers. He loved to dance and was widely known to be mentally ill. People said he had a penchant for picking things up off the street — cigarette lighters, empty bottles and other curbside flotsam — and playing with them like toys.
John Fuller, 59, said that he had known Mr. Vassell for years and that local police officers had, too. He echoed a common refrain: The officers should have known him well enough to not simply shoot him to death. “Every cop in this neighborhood knows him,” Mr. Fuller said.
Witnesses said the police officers appeared to fire almost immediately after they got to the corner around 4:45 p.m. Some of the witnesses said they did not hear the officers say anything to the man before firing, while another witness said she heard the officers and the man exchange some words.
The killing held echoes of the shooting less than three weeks ago in Sacramento in which the police shot and killed a black man who they believed was pointing a gun at them, but who, it turned out, was actually holding a cellphone.
On Wednesday in Brooklyn, Jaccpot Hinds, 40, was walking south on Utica Avenue near Montgomery Street when he saw an unmarked police car pass him and pull across two lanes of traffic near where a man was standing on a street corner. Mr. Hinds said a plainclothes officer got out of the passenger seat of the car and fired at the man several times. The officer appeared to shoot him in the neck, chest and right arm, Mr. Hinds said, and then walked over to the man and prodded his chest with the service weapon.
www.nytimes.comShooting unarmed people is a failure of policing point blank, period, no excuses. You keep telling us to abolish the police, but no-one's going to abolish the police. The problem with this no compromises, all or nothing kind of demand is that it guarantees perpetual inaction. A few people, IgnE comes to mind, as well as a couple others who's tag slips my mind at the moment understand what I'm talking about. One doesn't have to be for abolishing the police, but they have to accept that they are enabling these atrocities if they aren't. They aren't just enabling the atrocities, the structure, training and culture of the police is responsible for the atrocities. These are problems that can be attacked one by one systematically if the government wants to though. No need to abolish anything imo.
They certainly get plenty of help enabling these atrocities from the structure, training, culture of policing, and government officials on both sides of the aisle. They are all doing their part to enable these rampant violations of people's rights and their all too frequent killings.
That these could be fixed if people wanted them fixed without abolishing the police seems to be proven untrue by reality.
Police won't even be honest and forthcoming about how many people they kill every year and you think you can attack this one by one with them fighting you every step of the way. Not going to happen.
They have to be abolished and replaced from the ground up, it's the only viable solution.
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To abolish the police you would need to go state by state to have them disbanded and create a new law enforcement agency. The Federal goverment couldn't do it. Any attempt would face endless court challenges for federal over reach. Even if the political will existed to abolish police departments a state, I doubt the process would be more effective or efficient than trying put in place better oversight and reforms to the use of deadly force.
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EPT
