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On July 31 2018 01:57 brian wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 01:52 NewSunshine wrote:On July 31 2018 00:50 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2018 00:37 IyMoon wrote:On July 31 2018 00:33 Plansix wrote:I just want to point out that there is a section of the country that is literally so on fire that it is creating its own weather system and our federal government is so busy with Trump’s BS that they can’t pay attention to that. On July 31 2018 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:
I think their plan right now is to get the supreme Court pick and take it to the very end. His existing relationship with Trump makes me think they've already talked this through. A lot depends on how much info comes out before that point. Trump may be too toxic to even get his supreme Court pick depending on how things go. Considering the spending bill fight they have in September and how much document production is going to be needed just to confirm the pick for the high court, I’m not sure the Senate is going to be able to pull it off. I don't think it really matters, I would not bet on the dems picking up the Senate Government shut downs matter, which is what Trump is threatening right now. I don't think anyone has shut down the goverment 60 days before a election. They already shut down the government this term. Whether they do it again matters little to me. They have their distorted agenda, and have already proven they're willing to betray the core principles of our systems and shut down the government in order to get exactly what they want. This is a drop in the pan for me. this could apply equally against those in both the red and blue camps; and if this shutdown doesn’t matter to you i have to ask what any of them meant to you at all? and why then is a second shut down of less importance than the first?
Don't jump to conclusions. I said this hypothetical shutdown matters little to me, because I already have a particularly dim view of Trump and his cronies, in part because of the first shutdown they caused. I don't know exactly how you read that and conclude that the first shutdown didn't matter to me. My point is that, yes, it's terrible if they do it again, but it's like a murderer killing a second person. I already knew they were a murderer, and am not going to treat them all that differently for doing it again. It doesn't mean I view them favorably.
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On July 31 2018 01:50 Jockmcplop wrote:https://www.inquisitr.com/5007425/noam-chomsky-israeli-intervention-in-u-s-elections-vastly-overwhelms-anything-the-russians-may-have-done/Show nested quote +Israeli intervention in U.S. elections vastly overwhelms anything the Russians may have done, I mean, even to the point where the prime minister of Israel, Netanyahu, goes directly to Congress, without even informing the president, and speaks to Congress, with overwhelming applause, to try to undermine the president’s policies—what happened with Obama and Netanyahu in 2015. Is this ignored in the US because Israel is an ally? I've seen this suggested, but the behaviour of the current Israeli government with regards to US democracy is not actually the behaviour of an ally at all. They will happily subvert the will of the American people, and the American president if they disagree, or they perceive it to be bad for Israel in the short term. Are Americans truly angry about a foreign power interfering in their government's business, or are they angry that its Russia, or are they angry that Trump is implicated?
That's such a weird quote from the article. I can't access the original interview for some reason, but to equate a public speech made at American institutions by a foreign leader about a given issue to organized attempts to phish American officials, creating fake news organizations, and hacking both American political parties is just...bizarre. One is legal, one isn't. It's one thing for someone to try to convince you they're right at a dinner party, it's another for someone to break into your home and run subliminal ads at night to convince you they're right.
Whether Israel's attempts to influence American politics are more effective than Russia's surreptitious activities seems to be what Chomsky was really talking about here, which is probably the context I'm missing. But I'm not sure it's healthy to ban foreign leaders from making speeches to your elected bodies that contradict your country's policies, while it's pretty good for a country to root out covert foreign agents and mechanisms for surreptitious international intervention (so if that turns up having been done by Israel-sure, close those holes).
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On July 31 2018 02:06 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 01:58 Plansix wrote:
That entire article and Noam Chomsky's theory shows a complete misunderstanding of what "intervention" and "influence" mean. Israel has influenced over US politics as one of our closest allies and large population of Jewish US citizens in the US. Their attempts to sway policy are all out in the open and they don't deny it. They were and are very public about not liking the Iran deal. But last time I checked they didn't hack one of the major party's computers and distribute the information. We don't have one of their spies in custody, caught trying to influence US election policy.
Ahh, so the crime is being secretive. Its not that Russia tried to meddle in US politics, but that they did it in a a secretive, sly way. And if you think Israel is above spying on its allies, think again. https://20committee.com/2012/07/29/friends-from-the-institute/Show nested quote +Aggressive Israeli spying on the U.S. is something polite people are never, ever supposed to discuss; mentioning it will not get you invited to the right Georgetown parties.
But there was nothing in the piece which was exactly news to anyone who knows how the global intelligence game is actually played. That CIA considers Israel to be the number-one spy threat in the Middle East is a revelation only to neophytes. Counterintelligence officers for decades have been aware of the extent of Israeli espionage against the U.S., at home and abroad, though politicos are customarily wise enough to never mention it. Indeed, CI experts for years have spoken of the Big Four threats to the USG: Russia, China, Cuba, and Israel. NSA counterintelligence officer John Schindler
Again, I am all about critiquing Israel, but we don’t need to drive into conspiracy theories to do it. They are not actively hacking our election infrastructure, political campaigns and there is no evidence they are attempting to sway voters one way or the other. Until that shows up, my assessment of this theory being naïve and uninformed remains.
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It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate.
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On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate.
Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference?
Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections.
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On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference? Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections.
You mean like Bernie Sanders, who has only given the Palestinians lip service while supporting Israel? He seemed fine with it.
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United Kingdom10011 Posts
On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia?
I can totally understand that people accept it because of a difference in methodology and results. That makes perfect sense, although it is something worth talking about.
I can't understand the attitude that they are allies so its ok. You can't judge actions that way at all. P6 accuses me of conspiracy theories (or accuses Chomsky of conspiracy theories, it wasn't clear) - but I don't see any conspiracy theory here. No-one has alleged a conspiracy,and contrary to Chomsky, I am merely noting that the difference in perception of the actions of Russia and Israel isn't always logical or rational in its basis, and talk of alliances proves that. Alliances are made between governments to accomplish strategic goals that often have little to do with the populations, or the democratic principles of either country.
I just posted this article as a discussion point, I certainly don't agree with everything Chomsky says (his output is getting more suspect the older he gets), but when it comes to foreign influence on domestic politics, I don't think what Russia have done is out of the ordinary compared to even US allies, except in its methodology.
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There is a world of difference between the leader of a foreign country openly making a case for/against something in front of congress versus a country covertly working with one party to win an election. We could have every leader of every foreign nation publicly endorse one candidate or the other and I wouldn't care. We would know who is doing it and have a pretty good idea why.
Likewise, Putin could go on the floor of congress and give a speech and I wouldn't be too worried. I do not like or trust Putin, but he can say what he wants from a pulpit in Moscow, at the UN, or even on the floor of congress if he's invited (although I would question why a congressman would invite an adversary to speak). He's allowed to have opinions and push the agenda of his country, hell, he's supposed to do that.
It's the secret quid pro quo stuff that worries me. What is Trump giving Putin in return for his help? Does Putin have Trump by the balls? Is Trump selling out American or allied interests for personal profit or protection? Those sorts of things bother me.
And yes, if Israel is doing those sorts of things (they likely are), we should be stopping that too. I don't mind kicking foreign spies out of our country, no matter what nation they are employed by. I thought it was very strange that right after the election, Obama's administration was able to identify and remove a number of Russian spies. Why not remove them a hell of a lot earlier? Perhaps they're spying on the spies to gain information, but that seems like a risky game. I'd rather not play it.
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On July 31 2018 00:33 Plansix wrote:I just want to point out that there is a section of the country that is literally so on fire that it is creating its own weather system and our federal government is so busy with Trump’s BS that they can’t pay attention to that. Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:
I think their plan right now is to get the supreme Court pick and take it to the very end. His existing relationship with Trump makes me think they've already talked this through. A lot depends on how much info comes out before that point. Trump may be too toxic to even get his supreme Court pick depending on how things go. Considering the spending bill fight they have in September and how much document production is going to be needed just to confirm the pick for the high court, I’m not sure the Senate is going to be able to pull it off.
What this about creating its own weather system? How so?
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On July 31 2018 03:06 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 00:33 Plansix wrote:I just want to point out that there is a section of the country that is literally so on fire that it is creating its own weather system and our federal government is so busy with Trump’s BS that they can’t pay attention to that. On July 31 2018 00:32 Mohdoo wrote:
I think their plan right now is to get the supreme Court pick and take it to the very end. His existing relationship with Trump makes me think they've already talked this through. A lot depends on how much info comes out before that point. Trump may be too toxic to even get his supreme Court pick depending on how things go. Considering the spending bill fight they have in September and how much document production is going to be needed just to confirm the pick for the high court, I’m not sure the Senate is going to be able to pull it off. What this about creating its own weather system? How so?
It's so big and so hot that it's creating pretty significant winds which are causing it to spread faster and more unpredictably.
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On July 31 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference? Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections. You mean like Bernie Sanders, who has only given the Palestinians lip service while supporting Israel? He seemed fine with it.
Yeah, Bernie has been shit on Palestine. Bernie supporting imperialism isn't exactly breaking news lol. It's kinda always been part of my problem with him.
He's just one of few who even does the lip service.
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On July 31 2018 03:10 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference? Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections. You mean like Bernie Sanders, who has only given the Palestinians lip service while supporting Israel? He seemed fine with it. Yeah, Bernie has been shit on Palestine. Bernie supporting imperialism isn't exactly breaking news lol. It's kinda always been part of my problem with him. He's just one of few who even does the lip service.
But yet you were going to vote for someone who supported “ethnic cleansing” as you say. So it clearly wasn’t THAT big of a deal for you?
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On July 31 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 03:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference? Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections. You mean like Bernie Sanders, who has only given the Palestinians lip service while supporting Israel? He seemed fine with it. Yeah, Bernie has been shit on Palestine. Bernie supporting imperialism isn't exactly breaking news lol. It's kinda always been part of my problem with him. He's just one of few who even does the lip service. But yet you were going to vote for someone who supported “ethnic cleansing” as you say. So it clearly wasn’t THAT big of a deal for you?
I was told to pick the "least bad" from the Democratic primary and he was it (even if people still refuse to admit it) but fwiw I preferred Gloria la Riva but I was far from prepared to defend that position from the hardcore centrists here.
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Peter Thiel was interviewed by a German publication and was asked about a bunch of stuff, including his support for Trump:
www.weltwoche.ch
At some point, you described that the last presidential election felt like an apocalyptic battle. What exactly did you feel was at stake?
There are these essays by a person called Michael Anton. They are all written pseudonymously because he felt it was too dangerous to write names. One of them was titled “The Flight 93 Election”. Flight 93 was one of the four flights that was hijacked after 9/11 but it was the one where the passengers took over, they charged the cockpit – plane still crashed. And it was like that it felt that the country had been taken over and it was on a catastrophic trajectory, that people were going to try to charge the cockpit. It didn’t mean that they would be able to ride the plane or the ship or whatever the metaphor is, but “we’re gonna try”. So I do think that “The Flight 93 Election” is a powerful metaphor and, emotionally, that certainly resonated with me.
He felt that the Flight 93 Election was a powerful metaphor for the last election, but it's not clear exactly why he felt that way. I thought that Anton was more a liberaltarian (classical Machiavellian liberalism) than the Thiel kind of libertarian with a tinge of cyber anarchism.
Thiel's comment here:
And the answer is?
My judgement certainly is that there is a lot more truth on the Trump side than on the, let’s call it Google Propaganda, the alternative where everything is just automatically getting better. Certainly, one of the experiences throughout the western world is that the younger generation, for the most part, does not expect to have lives as good as those of their parents. We can say they are wrong, they don’t understand anything about their lives. But, again, the common-sense, anti “political correctness” intuition is that you trust people’s common sense, you trust their judgements and that judgement is an incredible indictment of our elites.
just seems to be way too general in contrast to Anton's very specific description of where he thinks the country is going and why we have to charge the cockpit.
Then Thiel says that he supports Trump out of a libertarian foreign policy perspective:
But I still think of myself as philosophically quite libertarian: I do believe in a smaller government, free markets, socially moderate positions, less interventionist foreign policy… I would actually strongly defend president Trump on libertarian grounds. I know lots of libertarians would not agree with this. The dimension that is always very important is the foreign-policy one from a libertarian point of view.
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On July 31 2018 03:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2018 03:18 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 03:14 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2018 03:10 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 03:02 Plansix wrote:On July 31 2018 02:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 31 2018 02:38 ticklishmusic wrote:
It's really obvious that Israel attempts to influence the US in many ways - some public, some covert, etc. but it's clear we're not adversaries. The entire Israel does terrible things which we tolerate/ implicitly support is kind of another debate. Why should being allied with active ethnic cleansers and them influencing our elections be more acceptable than Russia's interference? Bibi and Obama were barely allies, particularly when it came to their interference in each others elections. You mean like Bernie Sanders, who has only given the Palestinians lip service while supporting Israel? He seemed fine with it. Yeah, Bernie has been shit on Palestine. Bernie supporting imperialism isn't exactly breaking news lol. It's kinda always been part of my problem with him. He's just one of few who even does the lip service. But yet you were going to vote for someone who supported “ethnic cleansing” as you say. So it clearly wasn’t THAT big of a deal for you? I was told to pick the "least bad" from the Democratic primary and he was it (even if people still refuse to admit it) but fwiw I preferred Gloria la Riva but I was far from prepared to defend that position from the hardcore centrists here. Wasn't she a huge fan of Slobodan Milosevic who himself was big into the ethnic cleansing?
That's correct.
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On July 31 2018 03:21 IgnE wrote:Peter Thiel was interviewed by a German publication and was asked about a bunch of stuff, including his support for Trump: www.weltwoche.chShow nested quote +At some point, you described that the last presidential election felt like an apocalyptic battle. What exactly did you feel was at stake?
There are these essays by a person called Michael Anton. They are all written pseudonymously because he felt it was too dangerous to write names. One of them was titled “The Flight 93 Election”. Flight 93 was one of the four flights that was hijacked after 9/11 but it was the one where the passengers took over, they charged the cockpit – plane still crashed. And it was like that it felt that the country had been taken over and it was on a catastrophic trajectory, that people were going to try to charge the cockpit. It didn’t mean that they would be able to ride the plane or the ship or whatever the metaphor is, but “we’re gonna try”. So I do think that “The Flight 93 Election” is a powerful metaphor and, emotionally, that certainly resonated with me. He felt that the Flight 93 Election was a powerful metaphor for the last election, but it's not clear exactly why he felt that way. I thought that Anton was more a liberaltarian (classical Machiavellian liberalism) than the Thiel kind of libertarian with a tinge of cyber anarchism. Thiel's comment here: Show nested quote +And the answer is?
My judgement certainly is that there is a lot more truth on the Trump side than on the, let’s call it Google Propaganda, the alternative where everything is just automatically getting better. Certainly, one of the experiences throughout the western world is that the younger generation, for the most part, does not expect to have lives as good as those of their parents. We can say they are wrong, they don’t understand anything about their lives. But, again, the common-sense, anti “political correctness” intuition is that you trust people’s common sense, you trust their judgements and that judgement is an incredible indictment of our elites. just seems to be way too general in contrast to Anton's very specific description of where he thinks the country is going and why we have to charge the cockpit. Then Thiel says that he supports Trump out of a libertarian foreign policy perspective: Show nested quote +But I still think of myself as philosophically quite libertarian: I do believe in a smaller government, free markets, socially moderate positions, less interventionist foreign policy… I would actually strongly defend president Trump on libertarian grounds. I know lots of libertarians would not agree with this. The dimension that is always very important is the foreign-policy one from a libertarian point of view.
Thiel is framing the Flight 93 article as a call to stop progressivism at all costs, which is more or less correct at the most basic level. He's just omitting the part where Anton takes aim at the conservative/republican intelligentsia.
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