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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 5503

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3273 Posts
February 15 2026 14:38 GMT
#110041
On February 15 2026 18:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Will be interesting to see if anything remains of the Atlantic alliance once those clowns get the boot.

I think they have a point though, Europe should never have to rely on the US for its independence and its security. The US is not a reliable partner, and its voters are so volatiles and clueless they can elect a completely erratic president that turns allies into foes.

The damage to US soft power is unbelievable.


They don't believe in soft power and they're genuinely confused why the rest of the world is making deals with China at the expense of the U.S. economy. It's literally the mentality of an abuser being outraged that their spouse is finally leaving them. There's not supposed to be consequences for their actions, they're the biggest and strongest around and it's their right to be a piece of shit.
"don't try to pull a LightSpectra-Trumper"
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8195 Posts
February 15 2026 14:39 GMT
#110042
On February 15 2026 20:28 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 16:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
lol bad cop good cop, who do you think we are.

The enemy. They think you’re the enemy.

Well at the very least they make abundantly clear that we should consider them as such. I have to say the shift in perception here in Europe towards the US is something i haven’t witnessed in my lifetime.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
Last Edited: 2026-02-15 14:49:09
February 15 2026 14:42 GMT
#110043
On February 15 2026 23:39 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 20:28 KwarK wrote:
On February 15 2026 16:56 Biff The Understudy wrote:
lol bad cop good cop, who do you think we are.

The enemy. They think you’re the enemy.

Well at the very least they make abundantly clear that we should consider them as such. I have to say the shift in perception here in Europe towards the US is something i haven’t witnessed in my lifetime.

Th shift in perception is well deserved and the only hope we have of reversing any of this is that yall stick to it.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18869 Posts
February 15 2026 14:45 GMT
#110044
These folks are so delusional they’ll even lick Marco fucking Rubio’s boots! There’s no telling how low the floor will go.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6540 Posts
February 15 2026 14:58 GMT
#110045
On February 15 2026 20:17 Jankisa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


Democrats derangement syndrome in action again, can't talk about his preferred 2028 candidate who is obviously an incredibly morally dubious and completely unprincipled person

It doesn't look like he mentioned his preferred candidate. It clearly wasn't Vance.

On February 15 2026 20:17 Jankisa wrote:
without bringing up a smart, principled and well spoken person of color.

Rubio's quite a catch yes.

On February 15 2026 20:17 Jankisa wrote:
I'd be perplexed as to how can someone watch/read that speech full of outright lies that go directly against the stated US NSS and come away impressed, but, given that you are someone who supports Trump that absolutely makes sense.

The US NSS? National Security Strategy? Last published in November 2025 signed off directly by Trump? In what ways did you find that Rubio's speech (as Trump's Secretary of State) contradicts the NSS? Why would someone who supports Trump be impressed if Rubio contradicted Trump's own NSS? And what is so good about the NSS that you aren't glad Rubio contradicted it?
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
Dan HH
Profile Joined July 2012
Romania9246 Posts
February 15 2026 15:11 GMT
#110046
On February 15 2026 23:45 farvacola wrote:
These folks are so delusional they’ll even lick Marco fucking Rubio’s boots! There’s no telling how low the floor will go.

More ragebait than delusion, these guys didn't spend 100 hours of their free time arguing the super important distinction between Trump being found guilty of fingerrape versus forceful penile pentration for any practical reason, they can't get off anymore without being called Nazi degenerates on the daily. Anyone that doesn't enjoy it would have stopped baiting those responses about a decade ago.
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3273 Posts
February 15 2026 15:27 GMT
#110047
On February 16 2026 00:11 Dan HH wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 23:45 farvacola wrote:
These folks are so delusional they’ll even lick Marco fucking Rubio’s boots! There’s no telling how low the floor will go.

More ragebait than delusion, these guys didn't spend 100 hours of their free time arguing the super important distinction between Trump being found guilty of fingerrape versus forceful penile pentration for any practical reason, they can't get off anymore without being called Nazi degenerates on the daily. Anyone that doesn't enjoy it would have stopped baiting those responses about a decade ago.


Probably. Although oBlade seemed genuinely outraged when people found it funny that people mourned a homophobic podcaster by arranging gay hookups at his funeral. Maybe humiliation kinks are just more complicated than I realize.
"don't try to pull a LightSpectra-Trumper"
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22415 Posts
Last Edited: 2026-02-15 16:10:45
February 15 2026 16:04 GMT
#110048
It‘s incredibly annoying.
European leaders have to run triple appeasement.

Support Ukraine, make it clear to the Russians that its intentions are defensive while fending off the US exploiting the war to overexert their influence here from a moral low ground.
Because the US somehow collectively feels exploited while it‘s not their soil someone‘s trying to chip away at. As if it‘s other peoples fault that their internal policies are completely bonkers and their own citizens have caught up to that.

It‘s hard to pull off the shift into totalitarianism the leadership wants when the living standard and threat level doesn‘t warrant it. The only threat they face is that they can‘t hide what some elements of the billionaire class are doing forever, which likely involves advocating for social darwinism at least.
Fleetfeet
Profile Blog Joined May 2014
Canada2836 Posts
February 15 2026 17:05 GMT
#110049
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


The bits and pieces I've seen of AOC over the years haven't revealed her to be a blustering, bumbling ignoramus, though I haven't dug terribly deep. One of the first things that comes to mind is her playing Mario Kart with Walz during the last presidential election cycle, which was at least endearing though not exactly a testament to intellect.

That said, in a system that seems to reward being a blustering, bumbling ignoramus, if you're correct I'm surprised she's not even more popular.
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3273 Posts
February 15 2026 17:27 GMT
#110050
On February 16 2026 02:05 Fleetfeet wrote:
That said, in a system that seems to reward being a blustering, bumbling ignoramus, if you're correct I'm surprised she's not even more popular.


She should be like Marjorie Taylor Green and blame wildfires on Jewish space lasers to win the centrist vote.
"don't try to pull a LightSpectra-Trumper"
Vivax
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
22415 Posts
February 15 2026 17:44 GMT
#110051
On February 16 2026 02:27 LightSpectra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 02:05 Fleetfeet wrote:
That said, in a system that seems to reward being a blustering, bumbling ignoramus, if you're correct I'm surprised she's not even more popular.


She should be like Marjorie Taylor Green and blame wildfires on Jewish space lasers to win the centrist vote.


We don‘t know the full story, maybe some people in the party suddenly woke up without foreskins.
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10960 Posts
February 15 2026 18:30 GMT
#110052
On February 16 2026 02:27 LightSpectra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 02:05 Fleetfeet wrote:
That said, in a system that seems to reward being a blustering, bumbling ignoramus, if you're correct I'm surprised she's not even more popular.


She should be like Marjorie Taylor Green and blame wildfires on Jewish space lasers to win the centrist vote.



She also should do more Kpop-Salutes.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
February 15 2026 18:33 GMT
#110053
On February 15 2026 17:24 Yurie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


Last year was a speech on the exact same topic with the same core content aimed at the core Republicans in the US. This year they got somebody that cares about how Europe reacts to a speech about Europe to write it. So it is a better speech, but is it different when you go to the core of it?


It is very similar, yes. It's not just aimed at a domestic audience though. What's so funny about all of this is that rather than being some American imperialism this is the opposite. Telling them to get it together and that the US wants a change in relations in response to a change in the global situation. A thing that has been in the works for decades now. I suspect that to our European allies "softpower" just means doing what they want. Those days were always going to end, there are other areas that need attention. And if Europe is so great as they say, they ought to able to handle it. It's been 5 years since Russia invaded Ukraine?

On February 15 2026 20:17 Jankisa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


Democrats derangement syndrome in action again, can't talk about his preferred 2028 candidate who is obviously an incredibly morally dubious and completely unprincipled person without bringing up a smart, principled and well spoken person of color.

I'd be perplexed as to how can someone watch/read that speech full of outright lies that go directly against the stated US NSS and come away impressed, but, given that you are someone who supports Trump that absolutely makes sense.

I guess it also makes sense, when you are supporting a pedophile who's hell bent on destabilizing the world and you are pretending to be a non cult member, what else will you do except come here to attack a women who you feel threatened by.

By the way, still no answer regarding why USA healthcare is what it is, I'm still very curious how you will make that one about Democrats, but I'm sure you will find a way.


Rubio is the model Trump admin person. Does the job for the elected president, while still being able to advocate for his positions and occasionally get them through. He has his own opinions and policies but does not try to undermine the elected president.

AOC wasn't even prepared for a question about Taiwan. Not even a boilerplate non-answer. What she said would make Kamala Harris blush in embarrassment. Now does every politician have less than stellar moments? Of course. But she was totally unprepared. Moreover, House members are pretty much never elected president.

Is that what you were asking me? American haalthcare is not expensive for one reason but many. Much of goes back to something I said last week i think. Americans are so rich that they don't like the idea of tradeoffs and will just spend more or expect the government to spend more. But among the many however, are not reasons involving immigrants. Not sure where you are going with this, you aren't going to find the secret set of words that's going to make me say something I have repeatedly denied.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
LightSpectra
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States3273 Posts
February 15 2026 18:38 GMT
#110054
Threatening to invade Greenland because we need it for our Golden Piss Dome is the opposite of imperialism, actually. We should also demand the Sudetenland while we're at it just to confirm our commit to peace.
"don't try to pull a LightSpectra-Trumper"
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2892 Posts
February 15 2026 18:43 GMT
#110055
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
February 15 2026 19:02 GMT
#110056
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
CuddlyCuteKitten
Profile Joined January 2004
Sweden2892 Posts
February 15 2026 20:40 GMT
#110057
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.


My idea of European defense is regional alliances (nordic group, central group, east group, south group (?)) with combined armies and nuclear weapons.
So I'm not against the idea of Europe stepping up.

It would be possible to have a mutually beneficial trade relationship even with the US pulling completely out of Europe.
That's not what's happening however. You are fucking with us way more than that.
- You break the trade agreements we have.
- Pulling back from Ukraine is one thing but Trump actively meddles in the conflict in very unproductive ways. Sometimes against the interest of Ukraine and Europe. If the US just sat back, paid nothing and sold us guns that would be fine at this point. If we are truly allies we could also assume that you would be fine with some none-material aid when it's cheap and convenient for you. But no, it's a constant stream of fuckery.
This is an issue Europe views as existential, it's very odd behaviour to do this now and not try to help us resolve this conflict first and then leave.
- The US uses the banking system and potentially also IT as a weapon.
- Your fucking with our elections both via social media and direct statements and support from the administration.
- And of course Greenland...

Another thing is that US hegemony has been incredibly profitable for both sides.
We can buy things like fighter jets from you so we don't have to develop our own. We use almost exclusively US software. We have a stable global trade environment. There is access to US capital markets (both ways).
And of course we only need enough military power to beat Russia.
All we have to do is to support the global reserve currency which is kind of like paying tribute. But it's fine because there is so much to gain.

But now? We need more military. We are unsure if we can rely on US weapons. In fact the only way the Russian army beats Europe is with US air support (I mean we have ~200 F35s right now and will reach ~700 soon and we know how Russian made AA deals with them by now).
That shouldn't even be the vaguely theoretical consideration that it now has to be.

And of course, we would really like for the US to not implode economically because it would be a global disaster. But at a point where you should be looking at how to curb your deficit spending and we should be looking how to help that by stabilizing US interest rates IDK whats happening.
But I'm fairly sure that forcing key allies divest out of your weapons, software, trade relations etc is not helping.
Unity, support, family, and kneecapping bitches.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44355 Posts
Last Edited: 2026-02-15 20:59:10
February 15 2026 20:41 GMT
#110058
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.

You’re not getting Europe as a strong partner, your chosen policy is building Europe as a rival that hates you. It’s not productive. China is reasserting itself and yet you don’t seem to embrace that as successful American foreign policy.

Europe’s military spend has been entirely sufficient to meet Europe’s military defence needs since the fall of the USSR. America engaging in ruinously expensive adventurism in the Middle East and then demanding to know why Spain isn’t spending as much money as they are is ridiculous. Spain doesn’t need to spend as much because Spain chooses good relations with other countries. The United States is openly resentful of its own foreign policy choices, it chooses to run a global interventionist empire and yet gets mad about the bill when it arrives. And then demands to know why more countries aren’t grateful for it after it destabilizes the Middle East for the hundredth time triggering a migrant crisis.

If anything the US is a huge beneficiary of Europe, Europe provides bases, European NATO allies answered the call, Europe subsidizes American hardware. The American empire would be a lot more expensive and a lot weaker without European assistance.

After years of good relations building around the world you have to wonder who the US thinks Europe needs to arm against. Europe can take Russia and it has nuclear deterrents. Rejoicing that you finally made Europe pick up a gun is somewhat missing the point when it’s aimed at you.

The only serious threat of an invasion that Europe has received since the fall of the Soviet Union has come from Trump.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5029 Posts
February 15 2026 21:17 GMT
#110059
On February 16 2026 05:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.


My idea of European defense is regional alliances (nordic group, central group, east group, south group (?)) with combined armies and nuclear weapons.
So I'm not against the idea of Europe stepping up.

It would be possible to have a mutually beneficial trade relationship even with the US pulling completely out of Europe.
That's not what's happening however. You are fucking with us way more than that.
- You break the trade agreements we have.
- Pulling back from Ukraine is one thing but Trump actively meddles in the conflict in very unproductive ways. Sometimes against the interest of Ukraine and Europe. If the US just sat back, paid nothing and sold us guns that would be fine at this point. If we are truly allies we could also assume that you would be fine with some none-material aid when it's cheap and convenient for you. But no, it's a constant stream of fuckery.
This is an issue Europe views as existential, it's very odd behaviour to do this now and not try to help us resolve this conflict first and then leave.
- The US uses the banking system and potentially also IT as a weapon.
- Your fucking with our elections both via social media and direct statements and support from the administration.
- And of course Greenland...

Another thing is that US hegemony has been incredibly profitable for both sides.
We can buy things like fighter jets from you so we don't have to develop our own. We use almost exclusively US software. We have a stable global trade environment. There is access to US capital markets (both ways).
And of course we only need enough military power to beat Russia.
All we have to do is to support the global reserve currency which is kind of like paying tribute. But it's fine because there is so much to gain.

But now? We need more military. We are unsure if we can rely on US weapons. In fact the only way the Russian army beats Europe is with US air support (I mean we have ~200 F35s right now and will reach ~700 soon and we know how Russian made AA deals with them by now).
That shouldn't even be the vaguely theoretical consideration that it now has to be.

And of course, we would really like for the US to not implode economically because it would be a global disaster. But at a point where you should be looking at how to curb your deficit spending and we should be looking how to help that by stabilizing US interest rates IDK whats happening.
But I'm fairly sure that forcing key allies divest out of your weapons, software, trade relations etc is not helping.


Man i just lost everything I had written. Short version. I would like to see Europe's actions match its rhetoric. The trade war is incredibly stupid. The US is selling guns for Ukraine, right now. If Europe actually viewed this as existential I'm not how the UK continues to let its military strength decline, or how France spends 57% of GDP through the national government but only 2.1% for defense. But I'm glad you are not against the *idea* of Europe stepping up.

On February 16 2026 05:41 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.

You’re not getting Europe as a strong partner, your chosen policy is building Europe as a rival that hates you. It’s not productive. China is reasserting itself and yet you don’t seem to embrace that as successful American foreign policy.

Europe’s military spend has been entirely sufficient to meet Europe’s military defence needs since the fall of the USSR. America engaging in ruinously expensive adventurism in the Middle East and then demanding to know why Spain isn’t spending as much money as they are is ridiculous. Spain doesn’t need to spend as much because Spain chooses good relations with other countries. The United States is openly resentful of its own foreign policy choices, it chooses to run a global interventionist empire and yet gets mad about the bill when it arrives. And then demands to know why more countries aren’t grateful for it after it destabilizes the Middle East for the hundredth time triggering a migrant crisis.

If anything the US is a huge beneficiary of Europe, Europe provides bases, European NATO allies answered the call, Europe subsidizes American hardware. The American empire would be a lot more expensive and a lot weaker without European assistance.

After years of good relations building around the world you have to wonder who the US thinks Europe needs to arm against. Europe can take Russia and it has nuclear deterrents. Rejoicing that you finally made Europe pick up a gun is somewhat missing the point when it’s aimed at you.

The only serious threat of an invasion that Europe has received since the fall of the Soviet Union has come from Trump.


See your problem here is that what you wrote earlier is wrong. I don't view Europe as the enemy. Asking why I don't embrace China's rise but ask for Europe to do so is laughable. Yes, much of the current relationship is mutually beneficial. But if Europe is more than capable of handling Russia, and that's all it really needs to do, then I would say that 5 years later they should get on with that. I'm not for "subsidizing Ameican hardware" just for the sake of it. Framing European defense as a bill to be paid is freaking wild.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44355 Posts
Last Edited: 2026-02-15 21:52:07
February 15 2026 21:18 GMT
#110060
On February 16 2026 06:17 Introvert wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 05:40 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.


My idea of European defense is regional alliances (nordic group, central group, east group, south group (?)) with combined armies and nuclear weapons.
So I'm not against the idea of Europe stepping up.

It would be possible to have a mutually beneficial trade relationship even with the US pulling completely out of Europe.
That's not what's happening however. You are fucking with us way more than that.
- You break the trade agreements we have.
- Pulling back from Ukraine is one thing but Trump actively meddles in the conflict in very unproductive ways. Sometimes against the interest of Ukraine and Europe. If the US just sat back, paid nothing and sold us guns that would be fine at this point. If we are truly allies we could also assume that you would be fine with some none-material aid when it's cheap and convenient for you. But no, it's a constant stream of fuckery.
This is an issue Europe views as existential, it's very odd behaviour to do this now and not try to help us resolve this conflict first and then leave.
- The US uses the banking system and potentially also IT as a weapon.
- Your fucking with our elections both via social media and direct statements and support from the administration.
- And of course Greenland...

Another thing is that US hegemony has been incredibly profitable for both sides.
We can buy things like fighter jets from you so we don't have to develop our own. We use almost exclusively US software. We have a stable global trade environment. There is access to US capital markets (both ways).
And of course we only need enough military power to beat Russia.
All we have to do is to support the global reserve currency which is kind of like paying tribute. But it's fine because there is so much to gain.

But now? We need more military. We are unsure if we can rely on US weapons. In fact the only way the Russian army beats Europe is with US air support (I mean we have ~200 F35s right now and will reach ~700 soon and we know how Russian made AA deals with them by now).
That shouldn't even be the vaguely theoretical consideration that it now has to be.

And of course, we would really like for the US to not implode economically because it would be a global disaster. But at a point where you should be looking at how to curb your deficit spending and we should be looking how to help that by stabilizing US interest rates IDK whats happening.
But I'm fairly sure that forcing key allies divest out of your weapons, software, trade relations etc is not helping.


Man i just lost everything I had written. Short version. I would like to see Europe's actions match its rhetoric. The trade war is incredibly stupid. The US is selling guns for Ukraine, right now. If Europe actually viewed this as existential I'm not how the UK continues to let its military strength decline, or how France spends 57% of GDP through the national government but only 2.1% for defense. But I'm glad you are not against the *idea* of Europe stepping up.

Show nested quote +
On February 16 2026 05:41 KwarK wrote:
On February 16 2026 04:02 Introvert wrote:
On February 16 2026 03:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
On February 15 2026 15:27 Introvert wrote:
Rubio gave an excellent speech in Munich, the good cop to Vance's bad cop last year. While still not my top pick for 2028, he'd have the best chance of the people I like. Still not sold on Vance, as I think he's a thoughtful person but not a super principled one. But unfortunately as sitting VP he has to be considered the favorite.

I know this will just cause more accusations of "just likes to crap on Democrats" but honestly the contrast of Rubio with AOC is so night and day I have a hard time understanding how the party that thinks of itself as the smart one doesn't recognize that she's a blustering, bumbling ignoramus. Maybe it's just the clips I've seen but man...

anyways Rubio was quite good


I guess to most Americans foreign policy seems a bit like a game because for a long time whatever happened it didn't really impact average Americans. The notable exception being covid (which really isn't foreign policy) which really riled you guys up. Other countries are more used to external factors pushing them around so even if national policy might have been even worse for covid it hasn't stuck around as hard in people's minds.

I guess if you are a hypercompetitive economy with low social safety nets your number priorities are going to be 1) the economy 2) the economy 3) the economy [...] 478) foreign policy that doesn't impact you much.
Domestic politics are just that much more important for the economy in the US so that's the focus.

The thing is. The factor insulated the average American from foreign policy is not that you are the most powerful nation on earth, although that is certainly a factor. It's that your "dad" is the global reserve currency and you got his credit card.
Of course Iraq, Afghanistan, foreign aid or whatever won't impact you much when you can just borrow money at ultra low rates.

Right now your $38,5tn in debt. After Trump is done that's going to be at least somewhere between $41-42tn.
Do we think democrats will balance the budget the next 4 years after that if they win? Unlikely.
Republicans? They control the trifecta and they obviously aren't interested.

The old world order that both Vance and Rubio seems to be done with has several built in features keeping interest rates down for government debt in return for a stable American hegemony. That's something that should be valuable considering the US current situation.
The US needs to deal with debt somehow. I (and much of the rest of the world) is struggling to see how the new foreign policy is a good thing given that it's quite instrumental to it. Just look at Bessent and the scare over Japan right now.

If we look at the goals for the administration some key point seems to be
- onshore manufacturing in the US
- politics driving inflation (tariffs, pressure on the fed)
- a large focus in trade imbalances
- no real effort in balancing the budget (quite the contrary actually)
- no care about soft power or maintaining the US status as hegemon diplomatically/economically

Solving the debt crisis through traditional conservative fiscal responsibility seems out. If anything inflating it away seems to be in.
In that context things actually makes sense.
If your plan is to inflate away the debt problem and you couple that with the tech bros supporting Trump expecting massive job losses due to AI then onshoring manufacturing makes sense. Both because people need to work with something but also because foreign goods will be to expensive.
The losses to the elite from massive inflation is acceptable because of AI and investment opportunities.
It's more questionable if much of the American middle class think it's a good solution seeing as they would be the ones getting an express ticket to poverty when their comfortable job gets replaced by manufacturing and their saving become worthless.


Maybe part of it is a difference in perspective as you say. Because I view tariffs as far more detrimental to the things you listed than a re-orientation of defense policy. It's possible to have a good, mutually beneficial trade relationship while having the US pull back defensively and Europe step up. I'm going to say something that sounds like bait at first, but it's not. If Europe is such a great place, and one of such significance, as I keep hearing, I don't see the downside in having it reassert itself? It seems more like it does not *want* to. And i think this was part of what Rubio said, but not in those words. Give the continents behavior over the last 5 years i suspect they don't actually want to do it.

You’re not getting Europe as a strong partner, your chosen policy is building Europe as a rival that hates you. It’s not productive. China is reasserting itself and yet you don’t seem to embrace that as successful American foreign policy.

Europe’s military spend has been entirely sufficient to meet Europe’s military defence needs since the fall of the USSR. America engaging in ruinously expensive adventurism in the Middle East and then demanding to know why Spain isn’t spending as much money as they are is ridiculous. Spain doesn’t need to spend as much because Spain chooses good relations with other countries. The United States is openly resentful of its own foreign policy choices, it chooses to run a global interventionist empire and yet gets mad about the bill when it arrives. And then demands to know why more countries aren’t grateful for it after it destabilizes the Middle East for the hundredth time triggering a migrant crisis.

If anything the US is a huge beneficiary of Europe, Europe provides bases, European NATO allies answered the call, Europe subsidizes American hardware. The American empire would be a lot more expensive and a lot weaker without European assistance.

After years of good relations building around the world you have to wonder who the US thinks Europe needs to arm against. Europe can take Russia and it has nuclear deterrents. Rejoicing that you finally made Europe pick up a gun is somewhat missing the point when it’s aimed at you.

The only serious threat of an invasion that Europe has received since the fall of the Soviet Union has come from Trump.


See your problem here is that what you wrote earlier is wrong. I don't view Europe as the enemy. Asking why I don't embrace China's rise but ask for Europe to do so is laughable. Yes, much of the current relationship is mutually beneficial. But if Europe is more than capable of handling Russia, and that's all it really needs to do, then I would say that 5 years later they should get on with that. I'm not for "subsidizing Ameican hardware" just for the sake of it. Framing European defense as a bill to be paid is freaking wild.

So you’re not going to pay the bill? Will you at least say thank you?

I also don’t think you have any comprehension of just how much damage has been done by the policy you support. You don’t get to choose your enemies, your conduct picks them for you. You actively endorse and support a defence policy that mocks NATO allies who fought and died alongside Americans and shits on the sacrifice of their dead. Danes died at one of the highest per capita rates. Hegseth mocked NATO commitments and said ISAF stood for “I saw Americans fighting” while Trump said that they stayed far back out of danger. Bessent asserted that he didn’t care what Denmark did because Denmark is irrelevant. Trump repeatedly made threats to invade Denmark.

If what you wanted was a stronger ally I can assure you that that’s not what you got. Stronger, yes, ally, no.

NATO is dead. You can’t come back from demanding your allies send troops to support you and then your head of state mocking their dead in your war.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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