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On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there.
"if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew.
On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident.
"Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong."
Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based)
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On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based)
Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform
Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust.
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On June 03 2025 23:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:I believe Western Civ. rests upon a financial labyrinth house of cards. That is definitely dangerous. However, i can't take the Republicans' calls for fiscal restraint seriously. I've been hearing this yap since 1964 that the USA is on the verge of financial collapse and urgent spending cuts are required to avert imminent disaster. We've got the climate crazies predicting the end of the world and they got nuttin' on the financial "experts" claiming we're on the verge of another great depression. After Reagan gave us "A Time For Choosing" in 1964... why did he spend like drunken sailor from 1980 to 1988 while he was prez? Ironically, he drove the USA into debt further and faster than the left wing Liberal run Canada from 1980 to 1984. Reagan spent all kinds of time yapping about fiscal restraint. Trudeau never talked about it. In fact, Trudeau flouted the dire predictions of impending doom. Turns out, Pierre Trudeau was correct. What Reagan did was worse though. He constantly talked about how important fiscal restraint was and then spent like crazy. Pierre Trudeau didn't view restraining spending as a super high priority and his government spent money in a manner congruent with his espoused views. Move to today. Elon runs around talking about all the money saving the US government must do... then ... we get a mega spending bill that contributes to the lowering of the US gov's credit rating. Make it make sense? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ge0xk4ld1ohttps://time.com/7289045/musk-trump-big-beautiful-bill-national-debt-deficit-disappointed-doge/?utm_source=chatgpt.com
It makes a lot of sense. When they say "the government must save money", what conservative politicians usually mean is "The government shouldn't spend money helping poor people". They are totally fine with spending money on rich people (and especially themselves, of course), though. Usually because those rich people are the ones bankrolling them.
There are a lot of government expenses that they don't view as "government spending". Military, tax cuts for the rich, corporate welfare, that kind of stuff. Those are never included when a conservative says "the government must spend less". That only ever includes welfare, healthcare, infrastructure.
They have realized that every cent going to poor people is a cent that is not going to their own pocket immediately, and they cannot accept that.
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Northern Ireland27460 Posts
Stalinism is like Nazism in some ways, sure. You know what it’s 100% like? Stalinism.
I don’t call Nazi Germany Stalinist Germany, or Neo-Nazis, Neo-Stalinists, even if there is some overlap. Why? Because there already is a word for what they are, that isn’t just better at describing them, it literally exists to specifically describe them.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Booker. I can certainly see the similarities, sure, but it’s like an 80/85% Sieg Heil, versus Musk’s 100% one.
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On June 03 2025 23:34 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 23:14 JimmyJRaynor wrote:I believe Western Civ. rests upon a financial labyrinth house of cards. That is definitely dangerous. However, i can't take the Republicans' calls for fiscal restraint seriously. I've been hearing this yap since 1964 that the USA is on the verge of financial collapse and urgent spending cuts are required to avert imminent disaster. We've got the climate crazies predicting the end of the world and they got nuttin' on the financial "experts" claiming we're on the verge of another great depression. After Reagan gave us "A Time For Choosing" in 1964... why did he spend like drunken sailor from 1980 to 1988 while he was prez? Ironically, he drove the USA into debt further and faster than the left wing Liberal run Canada from 1980 to 1984. Reagan spent all kinds of time yapping about fiscal restraint. Trudeau never talked about it. In fact, Trudeau flouted the dire predictions of impending doom. Turns out, Pierre Trudeau was correct. What Reagan did was worse though. He constantly talked about how important fiscal restraint was and then spent like crazy. Pierre Trudeau didn't view restraining spending as a super high priority and his government spent money in a manner congruent with his espoused views. Move to today. Elon runs around talking about all the money saving the US government must do... then ... we get a mega spending bill that contributes to the lowering of the US gov's credit rating. Make it make sense? https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c4ge0xk4ld1ohttps://time.com/7289045/musk-trump-big-beautiful-bill-national-debt-deficit-disappointed-doge/?utm_source=chatgpt.com It makes a lot of sense. When they say "the government must save money", what conservative politicians usually mean is "The government shouldn't spend money helping poor people". They are totally fine with spending money on rich people (and especially themselves, of course), though. Usually because those rich people are the ones bankrolling them. There are a lot of government expenses that they don't view as "government spending". Military, tax cuts for the rich, corporate welfare, that kind of stuff. Those are never included when a conservative says "the government must spend less". That only ever includes welfare, healthcare, infrastructure. They have realized that every cent going to poor people is a cent that is not going to their own pocket immediately, and they cannot accept that.
Yep. It's incredibly nihilistic how rich people operate. They would still be outrageously rich in a world where they paid a fair share of taxes, and it would be a better world for them to live in because there'd be less crime, environmental catastrophes, civil unrest, etc. (Hell, they might even be richer in the long run; the stock market has historically done better under the center-left than far-right.) But they literally cannot fathom a world that isn't a zero-sum game, where their enrichment is only possible because of someone else's suffering. Wealth hoarding has more characteristics of mental illness than half the stuff in the DSM.
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On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust.
I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is?
To speed it up I'll go through wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism
"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership
"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity."
Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership
"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group."
Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based".
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On June 04 2025 00:13 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust. I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is? To speed it up I'll go through wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity." Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group." Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based".
Sounds like what you've "admitted" is that the overlapping parts of your proposed Nazi vs. Socialism Venn diagram don't actually matter, while the parts that are exclusive to the Nazis are the parts that are actually problematic. Hence why you refused to answer the questions. Good try though!
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On June 03 2025 23:40 WombaT wrote:
Stalinism is like Nazism in some ways, sure. You know what it’s 100% like? Stalinism.
I don’t call Nazi Germany Stalinist Germany, or Neo-Nazis, Neo-Stalinists, even if there is some overlap. Why? Because there already is a word for what they are, that isn’t just better at describing them, it literally exists to specifically describe them.
We’ll just have to agree to disagree on Booker. I can certainly see the similarities, sure, but it’s like an 80/85% Sieg Heil, versus Musk’s 100% one.
See thats why I like you.
On June 04 2025 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 00:13 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust. I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is? To speed it up I'll go through wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity." Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group." Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based". Sounds like what you've "admitted" is that the overlapping parts of your proposed Nazi vs. Socialism Venn diagram don't actually matter, while the parts that are exclusive to the Nazis are the parts that are actually problematic. Hence why you refused to answer the questions. Good try though!
What I admitted doesnt change anything. Socialist may be racist/homophobic, same apply to socialism. It is sort of like adding pineapple to pizza. Is it disgusting? Yes. Is it still pizza? Sadly yes.
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On June 04 2025 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 00:13 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust. I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is? To speed it up I'll go through wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity." Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group." Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based". Sounds like what you've "admitted" is that the overlapping parts of your proposed Nazi vs. Socialism Venn diagram don't actually matter, while the parts that are exclusive to the Nazis are the parts that are actually problematic. Hence why you refused to answer the questions. Good try though!
That sounds reasonable, but have you considered that you don't like being punched in the face, and nazis also don't like being punched in the face, so basically you are also a nazi?
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On June 04 2025 00:47 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 04 2025 00:13 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
This isn't true.
The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over.
That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did.
You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty.
Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
This isn't true.
The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over.
That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did.
You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty.
Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust. I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is? To speed it up I'll go through wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity." Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group." Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based". Sounds like what you've "admitted" is that the overlapping parts of your proposed Nazi vs. Socialism Venn diagram don't actually matter, while the parts that are exclusive to the Nazis are the parts that are actually problematic. Hence why you refused to answer the questions. Good try though! That sounds reasonable, but have you considered that you don't like being punched in the face, and nazis also don't like being punched in the face, so basically you are also a nazi?
I better make sure I don't grow a moustache either, or else Razyda is going to say that I "seem very much like" Hitler.
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Northern Ireland27460 Posts
On June 04 2025 00:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 00:13 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:
Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever.
[quote]
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
[quote]
"how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling?
"first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference.
This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust. I am sorry, but do you actually know what socialism is? To speed it up I'll go through wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism"Socialism is an economic and political philosophy encompassing diverse economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production, as opposed to private ownership." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_ownership"Social ownership is a type of property where an asset is recognized to be in the possession of society as a whole rather than individual members or groups within it. Social ownership of the means of production is the defining characteristic of a socialist economy, and can take the form of community ownership, state ownership, common ownership, employee ownership, cooperative ownership, and citizen ownership of equity." Annoyingly citizen ownership leads to: Collective ownership https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collective_ownership"Collective ownership is the ownership of private property by all members of a group." Thats why I said: "admittedly race based rather, than class based". Sounds like what you've "admitted" is that the overlapping parts of your proposed Nazi vs. Socialism Venn diagram don't actually matter, while the parts that are exclusive to the Nazis are the parts that are actually problematic. Hence why you refused to answer the questions. Good try though!
A huge difference between socialism and Nazi ideology is there are plenty of flavours of socialism, many of which have never existed outside of the page, or at a rally.
The Nazis basically said what they were going to do, and they went and did it.
There is no real difference between Nazism on paper, and in practice. The Communist Manifesto and Stalinism, there sure as fuck is.
Due to that, sure a socialist may be a Stalinist, they may also be completely antithetical to those ideas and implementations.
You can’t similarly be an ideological Nazi on paper, but not supportive of Nazi Germany. They’re the same thing, there is no more genteel version of it.
What also distinguishes the two is what the ‘collective’ is. In Nazism it’s a (mythical) motherland and values at the top. What’s good for the motherland, will ultimately be good for the people in this conception. The individual may benefit, but their wants and desires are subservient to that the nation, and god help you if you deviate too much from the ideals of the motherland.
In socialism the collective is the people. There isn’t an intermediary stage. Obviously Stalinism stuck one in, but conceptually.
By want of a crude analogy, if we have a family unit, in Nazism you get your fair share, provided you do whatever the Paterfamilias wants you to do. In socialism you’d just share things out evenly for the benefit of the collective and the individuals within
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On June 03 2025 21:34 LightSpectra wrote:
The only appropriate quote to reply to this "Booker did a Nazi salute" nonsense:
"Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past." - Jean-Paul Sartre
They can't help themselves. They all know better. They know they are losing the argument simply by having it. It's a compulsion at this point.
Granted Booker is mostly just grifting, presumably he ostensibly is out saying and doing things to "lead Democrats" that his ostensible supporters have allowed to be completely ignored here in favor of pages of bad faith discussion about whether he was giving a Nazi salute or if gay Nazis can exist.
This is an example how even when Democrats/their supporters win, we are all still losing.
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Pg. 2 of Socialism: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Newman, 2nd edition, 2020:
"the most fundamental characteristic of socialism is its commitment to the creation of an egalitarian society. Socialists may not have agreed about the extent to which inequality can be eradicated or the means by which change can be effected, but no socialist would defend the current inequalities of wealth and power. In particular, socialists have maintained that, under capitalism, vast privileges and opportunities are derived from the hereditary ownership of capital and wealth at one end of the social scale, while a cycle of deprivation limits opportunities and influence at the other end. To varying extents, all socialists have therefore challenged the property relationships that are fundamental to capitalism, and have aspired to establish a society in which everyone has the possibility to seek fulfilment without facing barriers based on structural inequalities."
Tell me with a straight face that any Nazi wanted or wants to create an egalitarian society for Jews, women, racial minorities, queer people, etc. To say nothing of the fact that the Nazis privatized numerous public industries, which is pretty much the most fundamentally pro-capitalism, anti-socialism thing imaginable.
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Canada11607 Posts
On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based)
Do you think all 25 points in the document proposed in 1920 were followed to completion in the actual Nazi regime?
There were some socialists early in the Nazi party. After Hitler joined, they were removed before long. It wouldn't surprise me if there were some socialist beliefs at beginning of the party before they were expunged. But expunged they were.
You cannot get too far through Mein Kampf without realizing Hitler saw Marxism as one if his major enemies after the Jews (and maybe sometimes they were the same in his view.) The biographical parts relay that he spent a good part of time debating against the Marxists--whether he was as an effective debater as he brags, I don't know, but point is, he was obsessed with debating against the ideas of Karl Marx. He saw himself as directly in opposition Marxism. Fascism was supposed to be the third way separate from Marxism and the democracies in the West which he also despised.
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On June 04 2025 01:17 LightSpectra wrote:Pg. 2 of Socialism: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Newman, 2nd edition, 2020: Show nested quote +"the most fundamental characteristic of socialism is its commitment to the creation of an egalitarian society. Socialists may not have agreed about the extent to which inequality can be eradicated or the means by which change can be effected, but no socialist would defend the current inequalities of wealth and power. In particular, socialists have maintained that, under capitalism, vast privileges and opportunities are derived from the hereditary ownership of capital and wealth at one end of the social scale, while a cycle of deprivation limits opportunities and influence at the other end. To varying extents, all socialists have therefore challenged the property relationships that are fundamental to capitalism, and have aspired to establish a society in which everyone has the possibility to seek fulfilment without facing barriers based on structural inequalities." Tell me with a straight face that any Nazi wanted or wants to create an egalitarian society for Jews, women, racial minorities, queer people, etc. To say nothing of the fact that the Nazis privatized numerous public industries, which is pretty much the most fundamentally pro-capitalism, anti-socialism thing imaginable.
Another relevant point: The company you keep. Nazis did generally enjoy quite some popularity with industrialists. Which is something no communicst or socialists ever had.
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On June 04 2025 01:17 LightSpectra wrote:Pg. 2 of Socialism: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Newman, 2nd edition, 2020: Show nested quote +"the most fundamental characteristic of socialism is its commitment to the creation of an egalitarian society. Socialists may not have agreed about the extent to which inequality can be eradicated or the means by which change can be effected, but no socialist would defend the current inequalities of wealth and power. In particular, socialists have maintained that, under capitalism, vast privileges and opportunities are derived from the hereditary ownership of capital and wealth at one end of the social scale, while a cycle of deprivation limits opportunities and influence at the other end. To varying extents, all socialists have therefore challenged the property relationships that are fundamental to capitalism, and have aspired to establish a society in which everyone has the possibility to seek fulfilment without facing barriers based on structural inequalities." Tell me with a straight face that any Nazi wanted or wants to create an egalitarian society for Jews, women, racial minorities, queer people, etc. To say nothing of the fact that the Nazis privatized numerous public industries, which is pretty much the most fundamentally pro-capitalism, anti-socialism thing imaginable.
Seriously? again wiki to speed it up:
"Nazism sought to overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based on racial purity which represented a people's community"
"the Nazis privatized numerous public industries" - I specifically mentioned their 25 point plan?
On the other (somewhat amusing) hand, Trump is a nazi, Trump wants deregulation. I am pretty sure nazis believed in controlling industries through regulations...
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On June 04 2025 01:40 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2025 01:17 LightSpectra wrote:Pg. 2 of Socialism: A Very Short Introduction by Michael Newman, 2nd edition, 2020: "the most fundamental characteristic of socialism is its commitment to the creation of an egalitarian society. Socialists may not have agreed about the extent to which inequality can be eradicated or the means by which change can be effected, but no socialist would defend the current inequalities of wealth and power. In particular, socialists have maintained that, under capitalism, vast privileges and opportunities are derived from the hereditary ownership of capital and wealth at one end of the social scale, while a cycle of deprivation limits opportunities and influence at the other end. To varying extents, all socialists have therefore challenged the property relationships that are fundamental to capitalism, and have aspired to establish a society in which everyone has the possibility to seek fulfilment without facing barriers based on structural inequalities." Tell me with a straight face that any Nazi wanted or wants to create an egalitarian society for Jews, women, racial minorities, queer people, etc. To say nothing of the fact that the Nazis privatized numerous public industries, which is pretty much the most fundamentally pro-capitalism, anti-socialism thing imaginable. Seriously? again wiki to speed it up: "Nazism sought to overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based on racial purity which represented a people's community" "the Nazis privatized numerous public industries" - I specifically mentioned their 25 point plan? On the other (somewhat amusing) hand, Trump is a nazi, Trump wants deregulation. I am pretty sure nazis believed in controlling industries through regulations...
I'm sorry the educational system failed you so badly. Might I suggest an introductory course on critical thinking.
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On June 04 2025 01:32 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 21:31 WombaT wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. There are two general layers of context here, and in general. The first difference is the first layer of context here. What happened in the footage, and does it accurately represent the event itself? For example, if I said ‘I don’t use the word nigger, I think it’s a profoundly ugly word’, and someone who was filming me, stuck it online, and only showed the bolded section, that would be taking me out of context by selectively reversing the sentiment of what I said. The second layer is, if the thing happened, why? What are the various other factors that explain what was going on. These may 100% end up open to interpretation anyway, or disagreement, they may not. For example a footballer in the UK was getting a lot of shit for having a tattoo of a gun, and for glorifying gang violence etc. The reality was they got that tattoo in memory of a family member (possibly father) who was killed by gun violence. So, circling back to this, and hypocrisy, or otherwise. 1. Via the first conception of context, Musk did the K-Pop salute, Booker did not. You can watch a long cut of Musk, he does the K-Pop salute. Booker does not, it only looks that way if you cut the footage early. 2. It doesn’t matter what Booker’s reasons are for doing a K-Pop salute, if he didn’t do it in the first place. With Musk, people’s reads are different from him just trolling, to him being a full-on Nazi, and various spots in between there. "if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew. On June 03 2025 21:15 Billyboy wrote:On June 03 2025 20:09 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:59 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 19:57 Razyda wrote:On June 03 2025 19:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 03 2025 18:01 Razyda wrote:Regarding what my point is, it is that this forum has the same double standards as ever. On June 02 2025 18:54 Jockmcplop wrote:You could write the book on deliberately ignoring context.
The only context here is that you dont like one guy, while dont mind the other one.
On June 02 2025 19:26 Jankisa wrote:
Jesus, guy, take the L, how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be, first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" in order to shield him now it's on to "see, a Democrat did the same thing a week ago why aren't you outraged".
It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers come to these threads with, I guess actually arguing for the insane shit they've been doing is kind of impossible so all you are left is "technically Trump is not a convicted rapist" and "actually Elon did a common wave that everyone does". "how much of an Elon fanboy do you need to be", "It does say a lot that these are the things that you Elon/Trump enjoyers" - some sources on that, or just a gut feeling? "first you tried to push "leftists are the real nazis" " Zoolander school was actually great idea. What I was saying, was that leftists can be nazis. There is a difference. This isn't true. The context is, the week after his NAZI SALUTE, ELon Musk posted 14 American flags at 14:!4 ina blatantly obvious reference to Hitler's 14 words, so revered by Nazis the world over. That is the context, and it provides background which allows you to easily see that this is the kind of guy who would do a Nazi salute, which he definitely did. You can ignore that context and keep pretending it doesn't exist if you like, but it makes your argument look incredibly weak and petty. Remind me please (I may be wrong), but did Musk condemnation here started right after he performed nazi salute, or only week after, when he did 14 flags staff? I dunno, probably straight away. In this discussion right now though, the context is there, so if that condemnation began right away, Musk went on to prove those people right, and arguing now that it wasn't a Nazi Salute is arguing something that has already been proven wrong. Yeah, but if the condemnation of Musk started right away and Booker not, then that is double standard. On June 03 2025 19:36 KwarK wrote:
Leftists can't be Nazis. Yes they can. Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong. As per the Booker thing, it has exploded on facebook from the Musk lovers here. There is some similarities, which makes sense since that was Musks excuse. The big differences are that musk has his fingers tight (like the Nazi salute), he does it with more aggression (like the Nazi salute) and the the big one, that made his excuse so laughable, was that he turned and repeated it showing all that it was not an accident. "Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong." Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based) Do you think all 25 points in the document proposed in 1920 were followed to completion in the actual Nazi regime? There were some socialists early in the Nazi party. After Hitler joined, they were removed before long. It wouldn't surprise me if there were some socialist beliefs at beginning of the party before they were expunged. But expunged they were. You cannot get too far through Mein Kampf without realizing Hitler saw Marxism as one if his major enemies after the Jews (and maybe sometimes they were the same in his view.) The biographical parts relay that he spent a good part of time debating against the Marxists--whether he was as an effective debater as he brags, I don't know, but point is, he was obsessed with debating against the ideas of Karl Marx. He saw himself as directly in opposition Marxism. Fascism was supposed to be the third way separate from Marxism and the democracies in the West which he also despised.
"Do you think all 25 points in the document proposed in 1920 were followed to completion in the actual Nazi regime?" Whether they were followed, or not, is irrelevant to the statement that program itself is socialist in nature.
"There were some socialists early in the Nazi party. After Hitler joined, they were removed before long. It wouldn't surprise me if there were some socialist beliefs at beginning of the party before they were expunged. But expunged they were." Again irrelevant to whether manifesto is socialist? I think also the one he purged were more into class conflict.
"You cannot get too far through Mein Kampf without realizing Hitler saw Marxism as one if his major enemies after the Jews (and maybe sometimes they were the same in his view.) The biographical parts relay that he spent a good part of time debating against the Marxists--whether he was as an effective debater as he brags, I don't know, but point is, he was obsessed with debating against the ideas of Karl Marx. He saw himself as directly in opposition Marxism. Fascism was supposed to be the third way separate from Marxism and the democracies in the West which he also despised."
He was also in opposition to capitalism. Being in opposition to Marxism, doesnt necessarily put you in opposition to socialism.
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The Cory Booker gesture doesn't look nearly as similar to a Sieg Heil as Musk's. When you add in all the other context that Jockmcplop mentioned it's a night and day comparison. There's plenty of double standards on the left and I've spent much time pointing them out but this isn't one of them. On a broader point, I think one of the biggest problems with political discourse these days is nobody is willing to call balls and strikes fairly, on both sides of the aisle.
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On June 04 2025 02:22 BlackJack wrote:
The Cory Booker gesture doesn't look nearly as similar to a Sieg Heil as Musk's. When you add in all the other context that Jockmcplop mentioned it's a night and day comparison. There's plenty of double standards on the left and I've spent much time pointing them out but this isn't one of them. On a broader point, I think one of the biggest problems with political discourse these days is nobody is willing to call balls and strikes fairly, on both sides of the aisle.
Nor is there much of any incentive to. Truth is a lost concept at the moment.
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EPT
