US Politics Mega-thread - Page 4989

On June 04 2025 01:40 Razyda wrote:


Seriously? again wiki to speed it up:

"Nazism sought to overcome social divisions and create a homogeneous German society based on racial purity which represented a people's community"

"the Nazis privatized numerous public industries" - I specifically mentioned their 25 point plan?

On the other (somewhat amusing) hand, Trump is a nazi, Trump wants deregulation. I am pretty sure nazis believed in controlling industries through regulations...

In his book How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them (2018), Jason Stanley defined fascism thusly:
[A] cult of the leader who promises national restoration in the face of humiliation brought on by supposed communists, Marxists and minorities and immigrants who are supposedly posing a threat to the character and the history of a nation ... The leader proposes that only he can solve it and all of his political opponents are enemies or traitors.

On June 03 2025 23:15 Razyda wrote:


"if you cut the footage early." I've seen rest of it. About half step of the podium his rather rapid turn. kind of makes me think, this was the moment he knew.



"Just take the L and call them Stalinists going forward, it is as bad and not automatically wrong."

Why would I do that? Have you seen 25 points of nsdap? It seems very much like socialism (admittedly race based rather, than class based)

On May 28 2025 12:15 Razyda wrote:
Amusingly it always makes me laugh that British people celebrate the man who tried to blow up parliament.

On June 04 2025 04:51 KwarK wrote:
If I might weigh in on the troll vs moron debate, consider this

On June 04 2025 02:13 Razyda wrote:


"Do you think all 25 points in the document proposed in 1920 were followed to completion in the actual Nazi regime?" Whether they were followed, or not, is irrelevant to the statement that program itself is socialist in nature.

On June 04 2025 02:13 Razyda wrote:
"You cannot get too far through Mein Kampf without realizing Hitler saw Marxism as one if his major enemies after the Jews (and maybe sometimes they were the same in his view.) The biographical parts relay that he spent a good part of time debating against the Marxists--whether he was as an effective debater as he brags, I don't know, but point is, he was obsessed with debating against the ideas of Karl Marx. He saw himself as directly in opposition Marxism. Fascism was supposed to be the third way separate from Marxism and the democracies in the West which he also despised."

He was also in opposition to capitalism. Being in opposition to Marxism, doesnt necessarily put you in opposition to socialism.

“I’m sorry, but I just can’t stand it anymore. This massive, outrageous, pork-filled Congressional spending bill is a disgusting abomination,” the tech billionaire posted on X. “Shame on those who voted for it: you know you did wrong. You know it.”

He added in a subsequent post: “Congress is making America bankrupt.”


In another, he said: “In November next year, we fire all politicians who betrayed the American people.”

On June 03 2025 23:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Here are the 25 Nazi points you're referencing: https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/nazi-party-platform

Which ones "seem very much like socialism", and why? Are you talking about something like "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties"? Because I don't think that's what most people have issues with, when it comes to Nazis. I think a cause for concern would be something like "4. Only members of the nation may be citizens of the State. Only those of German blood, whatever their creed, may be members of the nation. Accordingly, no Jew may be a member of the nation." This isn't what socialists generally believe though. And there's also, like, the Holocaust.

On June 04 2025 05:50 GreenHorizons wrote:
Trump and Musk being in ostensible conflict is probably worse than it seems at first glance.

Basically they are going to dominate the overton window so that what is "reasonable" and "in the center" will be what liberals can cobble together in between them. This is replacing the dynamic of Trump and Musk on one side and (the complete lack of) Democrat leadership on the other.

On June 04 2025 02:22 BlackJack wrote:
The Cory Booker gesture doesn't look nearly as similar to a Sieg Heil as Musk's. When you add in all the other context that Jockmcplop mentioned it's a night and day comparison. There's plenty of double standards on the left and I've spent much time pointing them out but this isn't one of them. On a broader point, I think one of the biggest problems with political discourse these days is nobody is willing to call balls and strikes fairly, on both sides of the aisle.

On June 04 2025 06:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:


Eh, there are a fair amount of the ones that come after 11 that could belong to a socialist party's program. 11, 13, 14, 15, 16, 20, 21 are like, yeah absolutely, 17 and 18 contextually.

Then, 19 and 24 explicitly reject the materialist spirit and world order, but I can also understand why one doesn't necessarily understand how this is linked with a rejection of marxism/socialist thought.

Anyway - this obviously does not make nazi-germany socialist, for many of the reasons outlined here. In addition to the whole, 'purging of the actual socialists', there's: Entirely different desired outcomes, and entirely different foundational world views.

I think this is where Razyda gets it wrong - and honestly, it's an understandable mistake. The primary difference between left-wing and right-wing ideology is not, as is somewhat commonly believed, and which will in most cases be a fair method of differentiating, attitudes towards capitalism, individual freedom, or the state - but about hierarchies. Leftism at its core is about combating hierarchical structures. The opposition to capitalism isn't based on its ability to incentivize production of lots of goods. Even in the case of the autoritarian left (stalinism), the power structure is (theoretically) aimed at providing more equality for the population at large. The goal of communism is a class-less society. Fascism and nazism in some ways sought the upheaval of existing hierarchies - but most certainly not with the goal of abolishing them entirely; hierarchical structures are an inherent, desired element of fascism/nazism.

Then - the world view - and in this regard, there's an equally big chasm, and this is also an area where you see an inherent conflict between the left and the right wing - because your opinion on this question is bound to form your opinion on hierarchies: Whether human behavior is malleable (by materialist conditions) or whether it's more fixed - by inherent characteristics. Right-wingers will commonly argue that the people 'on top' are there because they are more intelligent or gifted in some way - they rose to the top because of their superior inherent qualities. Left-wingers will argue that they rose to the top because of material conditions. Gender roles/structures (one of the areas where the far right and the far left are most in disagreement) also exemplify this - the more biological in nature the differences between the genders are, the more 'fixed' are the differences between men and women.

Honestly Razyda you should just pay a visit to chatgpt and ask questions like 'how come nazism and fascism are considered far-right ideologies when the nazi program included policies that clearly could have been part of a socialist party's agenda' and hopefully, you'll end up being wiser. You can't just be like 'well I disagree' when you're talking about well-established definitions of words, because you're not the one who gets to define them, and if you insist on using a different, personalized set of definitions when you argue, people are inevitably going to think you make no sense.

On June 04 2025 09:29 Razyda wrote:
I agree with your first sentence, with a caveat that it still loked as sieg heil. Disagree however with the context part, as context mentioned by Jockmcplop happened to occur week later. Forum went on frenzy at the time of Musk gesture not week after. (now I am not exactly up to speed on Musk so I am not sure what nazi thing he did earlier, however unbaning nazis and racists on twitter I would discount given that it was rather blanket unban, with some exceptions, rather than nazi only unban).

On June 04 2025 10:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Totally agree, though as I said before, those aren't the problematic areas (and neither is having a moustache). I had posed that question to him to see if he would be capable of answering it (he was not capable of answering it). He found some innocuous overlaps, and then asserted that the terrible parts that are Nazi-specific ought to also be attributed to socialists too, and that Nazis = socialists. In fact, he's still doubling (tripling? quadrupling? quintupling?) down on that nonsense. I'm unsure as to why he's trying to follow in the footsteps of oBlade - implode and turn himself into a pariah.

On June 04 2025 10:19 WombaT wrote:

Some of the forum are up to speed as it were, hence the reaction being quite quick.

Musk is in my top 5 most detested humans currently alive, although even still you may notice I don’t personally call him a Nazi.

Re the recent Polish Presidential elections and that thread, outside of some general scanning and ‘far right populist’ cropping up a lot in news articles, I don’t really know a huge amount about the lad, wasn’t on my radar.

Hence, while I wouldn’t immediately just assume everything our Polish posters were saying was absolutely 100% correct, but, given it was a subject I was starting from 0% in, equally they’re far more likely to be right than I.

The problem with your observation that he didn’t specifically unban Nazis is that Musk doesn’t live up to his ‘free speech absolutist’ credentials. He’s directed that those who use word ‘cis’ get censured on his platforms ffs

If he was just 100% non censorship and consistent, I’d think it’s a dumb position and in practice not actually neutral, but in theory a neutral one at least. However, he’s done many things that censor critics or certain left wing ideologies, while directing unpleasant folks (including some actual Nazis) get unbanned on his platform.

And while it seems a minor distinction, I think actively intervening to unban Nazis is worse than never banning some of them in the first place. Especially if the ban hammer still exists

It’s a big fucking platform, one doesn’t see even a fraction of it, so x Nazi not getting banned you can just stick down to scale. Some of the big, big names (relatively speaking) that did cop a ban, and got unbanned. Considering how famously hands-on Musk is as well, it’s hard to see that at least some of these unbans weren’t his call, or something he OKed

On June 04 2025 10:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Totally agree, though as I said before, those aren't the problematic areas (and neither is having a moustache). I had posed that question to him to see if he would be capable of answering it (he was not capable of answering it). He found some innocuous overlaps, and then asserted that the terrible parts that are Nazi-specific ought to also be attributed to socialists too, and that Nazis = socialists. In fact, he's still doubling (tripling? quadrupling? quintupling?) down on that nonsense. I'm unsure as to why he's trying to follow in the footsteps of oBlade - implode and turn himself into a pariah.

On June 04 2025 05:26 Billyboy wrote:
Wow it sure did not take Musk long to burn his Trump bridge, I am shocked Trump did not fire first.