Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
If the US in future had a ‘Seal Team 6’ holiday, it wouldn’t be because they were celebrating Bin Laden let’s put it that way. Such is Guy Fawke’s Night
Although at this juncture it’s just some old tradition that’s stuck around. We’re not frothing at the mouth over him almost blowing up Parliament
On May 28 2025 12:25 WombaT wrote: If the US in future had a ‘Seal Team 6’ holiday, it wouldn’t be because they were celebrating Bin Laden let’s put it that way. Such is Guy Fawke’s Night
Although at this juncture it’s just some old tradition that’s stuck around. We’re not frothing at the mouth over him almost blowing up Parliament
Wombat I know, what I do, in a way, is abuse my foreigner status ( it kinda helps to break the ice), however try it yourself, ask your coworkers "why we celebrate the day when guy almost blow up parliament" I think reaction you will get will be somewhat similar to the one i described.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
I said in my post that doing a Nazi salute doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a Nazi. Hell otherwise actors in WW2 films are a bunch of cunts.
There is territory there for discussion. One can be a provocateur, or just a bit of a cunt and do such a thing, without necessarily being a subscriber to Nazi Digest. Sure.
That Musk did not do such a salute (more than once incidentally), I don’t think is remotely, remotely plausible whatsoever. My brain starts to break when I try to put myself into the headspace of someone who can watch that footage and somehow deny that that is the case. It is genuinely incomprehensible to me. I’m capable and tbh make too much of a hobby of trying to put myself into the headspace of some of the most reprehensible people on the planet, and there’s almost always some crumb there that makes some kind of sense.
Hell, actual Nazis make more sense to me than ‘that’s not a Nazi salute’.
I will assume it doesn’t need stating for anyone based on my post history, but ‘makes sense’ is in no way any kind of endorsement or excuse-making.
Shall respond properly to your longer post when doggo isn’t in the throes of consistently vomiting
I admit I'm not an expert on the exact hand and finger placements required for the various salutes, but I also don' t trust people who say that things are facism when they clearly aren't, and so I don't simply believe them about other things. If you think, for example, that deporting people without a legal right to be here is facism, then I am going to doubt your claim about what Elon did. That doesn't mean, contra Kwak, that I believe the opposite, but it means I don't take that person's word for it. This is not a difficult position to understand when stated as such but for Orange Man Bad types it's basically impossible.
On May 28 2025 10:01 KwarK wrote: Fortunately he can just accept the reality his eyes tell him and so when he literally sees someone celebrating their political victory in front of a crowd of right wing supporters raises their right arm and extends it stiffly at a 45 degree angle with their fingers extended then it's probably a k-pop thing.
The reason he knows it can't be a Nazi thing is because everyone was already saying the guy was promoting a whole lot of Nazi shit and when the guy that everyone is calling a Nazi does a Nazi gesture then you know for sure that he's not a Nazi because why would a guy who says Nazi shit do a Nazi gesture.
See above.
I didn't say "I know it's not a Nazi thing because everyone was already saying it was." I said it didn't look like one to me at first glance. And since I don't think he's a Nazi, and still don't, I was inclined to believe it either A) wasn't or B) Elon thinks he's being provocative giving the middle finger to people who call him a Nazi. I haven't exactly gone to bat for Elon in this thread, think he does a lot of stupid stuff, and I wasn't a fan of Tesla before it was cool. But I wouldn't trust KwarK with that judgement for anything because he thinks things are so bad that violence is justified. Clear detachment from reality so extreme that it calls into question the interpretive and moral framework you are using. Or put another way I simply don't trust you or people who say what you do either way. Could be right, could be wrong, but more importantly it might just be meaningless noise and rage.
You don’t have to take my claim for it, it’s a matter of watching it.
If one is unsure as to the specific mechanics of what constitutes a sieg heil, and perhaps doesn’t want to unduly throw someone under the bus for something different, but similar looking, one can check what one of those looks like.
As I’ve already stated, and indeed at the time, I’m in camp B) although I think the man has extremely questionable views, and is certainly an enabler of those with similar views.
Kwark and indeed myself may think violence is justifiable, but it’s not due to a detachment from reality of this kind. It’s a value judgement. Similarly I don’t agree with abortion restrictions, but I wouldn’t consider advocates as detached from reality.
Not a religious guy, but hey, who knows? Not observable, but not disprovable. Not something I’ll shit on unless it’s justification for shitty behaviour.
I mean Musk’s K-Pop gesture was just the first thing that sprung to mind, it’s not a short list. Things that are very, very obviously apparent are just denied in some quarters. Trump is a strong and stable genius despite proudly showcasing he is not on the daily, etc.
I’m drawing that particular distinction because, of course not without precedent but this level of collective delusion is something rather new, and it’s increasingly just supplanting divergence along moral or political value systems.
It’s rather a problem
We have predictably diverted. Did you want to talk about the other stuff I said that you were going to respond to? We don't have to, of course. But everyone who was, for example, singing Biden's praises will not so easily be let off the hook here. Our institutions (the universities, the "respectable" media, politicians, and bureaucrats) have a crisis of credibility of their own making. We do in fact have a left-wing violence problem and while everyone is screaming about Elon there are crazy people out there murdering healthcare executives, embassy workers, firebombing politicians homes. Should we be looking for equivalent calls and try to stop them or we are going to shrug and say "well violence isn't how I, a well meaning citizen, would deal with it, but we all have our own moral frameworks!" You wouldn't accept that from anyone to your right, and in fact no one here does, as shown by their posts.
These things are all pieces of a puzzle because while I get "wow how could you doubt he's saying Sieg Heil" we seem far more ambivalent (or supportive of) actual violence. This ties into the first post I made yesterday. The left is just as capable of rationalization and living in a bubble as their worst opposites. It might be easier for them in fact, considering that everyone right of center has to listen to a constant drumbeat of how THESE conservatives are so much worse than the last ones. Biden is a good example because some people even now are having a really hard time admitting they didn't see what was right in front of them because it would mean people they hated were right. I remember what Dems said about Mitt Romney. I wasn't born yesterday. Whether it's self-deception wrt Biden, Russiagate nonsense, or "creeping fascism" generally it might behoove some people hold themselves to their own standards. And Americans generally don't agree. Violence won't achieve it's goal if people don't accept the underlying premise. Most the Jan6 people are very cavalier about political assassination all of a sudden. I'm going to talk like KwarK just for a second and say that if you are pro United Health care CEO killing that you are almost certainly a bad person.
edit for what it's worth I looked and apparently the ADL didn't think the salute thing was a Nazi symbol. Now the ADL says a lot of contestable things but maybe it's not in fact universal.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
"To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis." so like drawing swastikas and committing acts o violence?
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
"To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis." so like drawing swastikas and committing acts o violence?
No that's stupid. You're being stupid, I don't know if that's deliberate or not. Leftwing politics is not Nazism. The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. You know that, for certain, and yet you continue to make this argument. If you feel like stepping out of the realm of pure rhetoric, we can continue the conversation on a sensible footing. Otherwise, if you are going to genuinely argue that left wingers hold nazi beliefs when you know it isn't true, what's the point? Read what I said about Musk, and the way people are using Nazi symbols. Musk to laugh at the left, left wingers to try to draw attention to Musk using Nazi symbols. The actual motivation here has very little to do with actual Nazis and their beliefs in either case.
"But the left are the REAL Nazis" is so fucking Alex Jones.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
"To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis." so like drawing swastikas and committing acts o violence?
No that's stupid. You're being stupid, I don't know if that's deliberate or not. Leftwing politics is not Nazism.. The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. You know that, for certain, and yet you continue to make this argument. If you feel like stepping out of the realm of pure rhetoric, we can continue the conversation on a sensible footing. Otherwise, if you are going to genuinely argue that left wingers hold nazi beliefs when you know it isn't true, what's the point? Read what I said about Musk, and the way people are using Nazi symbols. Musk to laugh at the left, left wingers to try to draw attention to Musk using Nazi symbols. The actual motivation here has very little to do with actual Nazis and their beliefs in either case.
"But the left are the REAL Nazis" is so fucking Alex Jones.
"The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. " - yeah because conservatives were the Tesla customers by large.
It's like that well known poem goes "First they came for the trade unionists because Nazis are left wing and wanted to hang out Then they came for the socialists because everyone knows Nazis are socialists"
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
"To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis." so like drawing swastikas and committing acts o violence?
No that's stupid. You're being stupid, I don't know if that's deliberate or not. Leftwing politics is not Nazism. The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. You know that, for certain, and yet you continue to make this argument. If you feel like stepping out of the realm of pure rhetoric, we can continue the conversation on a sensible footing. Otherwise, if you are going to genuinely argue that left wingers hold nazi beliefs when you know it isn't true, what's the point? Read what I said about Musk, and the way people are using Nazi symbols. Musk to laugh at the left, left wingers to try to draw attention to Musk using Nazi symbols. The actual motivation here has very little to do with actual Nazis and their beliefs in either case.
"But the left are the REAL Nazis" is so fucking Alex Jones.
It's being a debatelord. We talked about this a while back. They don't actually believe any of the shit they say, they just say whatever they think will win the debate. You will never get any concession out of people like that, because that would mean admitting to losing a part of the debate, which is not what they are here for.
It is part of the reason why i barely take part in this thread anymore, it is fucking exhausting to talk to people who are willing to say anything and don't actually hold any position. To them, talking to people about politics is just a game, and the only thing that counts is winning. There are no principles beyond that, and anything else takes second row to this core principle.
On May 28 2025 15:22 KwarK wrote: It's like that well known poem goes "First they came for the trade unionists because Nazis are left wing and wanted to hang out Then they came for the socialists because everyone knows Nazis are socialists"
On May 28 2025 15:22 KwarK wrote: It's like that well known poem goes "First they came for the trade unionists because Nazis are left wing and wanted to hang out Then they came for the socialists because everyone knows Nazis are socialists"
Pretty sure I'm remembering it right.
Would be helpful if you made a point?
You made the argument that Nazism was a left wing ideology because Hitler said he was a socialist one time and if you can't trust a man like Hitler then who can you trust. Hitler wouldn't lie.
I thought that was a fucking fantastic point and chimed in with agreement about left wing Nazism. I think there was even a poem about how in Nazi Germany the first people the Nazis came for were the trade unionists. I don't remember exactly how the poem went but I'm pretty sure that it was a list of groups the Nazis liked.
I think it's time to add Razyda to the long list of right-wingers posting here arguing in bad faith and just ignore him/her. Simberto is right, it's a waste of time.
I'm starting to think that "Americans have 4th grade literacy level" is an overstatement.
But maybe it's actually a horrific visual impairment? We know they can't tell if someone does a Nazi salute because their own eyes tell them it's some "pop-star gesture", whatever that is. Maybe its the same issue when they read words, their eyes just show them different words with different meanings?
On May 28 2025 04:21 Introvert wrote: If the reality oBlade is living in is one that, for example, says that Biden was mentally unfit to be president then I think he's got a leg up on pretty much this entire thread already. Inventing a world that doesn't exist is a common theme on the left as well as the right at the moment.
On April 12 2020 03:24 ChristianS wrote: [quote] Would you agree that the Bernie track (of all the tracks you might be persuaded to include under “acceptable”) has demonstrated the broadest appeal? And that we just recently concluded an electoral contest in which the Bernie track couldn’t find plurality support even among the “left?”
The very first contest (if you ignore everything leading up to it in media and the party) demonstrated that electoral contest was not valid imo. Several subsequent state contests demonstrated that as well. If you set aside the electoral fraud we all witnessed in Iowa and the subsequent voter suppression lines in Texas, Chicago, Wisconsin, etc.. the small fraction of the general electorate that constitutes the Democratic primary (typically a moderate group) selecting Biden doesn't allow me to draw the conclusions you have. Bernie support among the left is overwhelming, the left is only a small part of the Democratic primary (for many reasons within and beyond their control)
I mean, don’t get me wrong, a scenario in which Bernie somehow convinces Democrats to back him at the last minute sounds great to me. But Bernie just spent a year trying to convince them any way he knew how, and it didn’t work, right? What do you think will change? Coronavirus certainly didn’t seem to hurt Biden’s polling. If anything the opposite, actually.
I'm suggesting the increased scrutiny a competent and non-complacent media would provide could expose people to enough to realize how terrible of an idea it is to put Biden up against Trump and there's more than enough votes left to prevent that fate. Also that doing so by way of delayed primary voting and a delayed convention (made possible/unavoidable by covid-19) is far preferable than trying to come up with solutions after Biden is nominated or if he wins, or worse, if he loses.
But your assessment of the validity of the election isn’t the issue here. Whether you think those irregularities cost Bernie the primary (and I think it’s pretty clear they didn’t), there’s not any clear metric by which Bernie could claim legitimacy. He didn’t win the primary, he hasn’t been ahead in polls at almost any point, and at this point he himself has dropped out. You’re hoping some negative media will take Biden down, but he’s been in the public eye for decades, including as VP for eight years. If there’s an angle the media could cover him by that would sink him, why would it only happen in the next 6 months?
Do you think Bernie was wrong to drop out? Do you think he was likely to turn it around? And more importantly, do you really think there’s a real chance of convincing voters to support a guy who already dropped out?
They could ask him to draw a clock on live TV. When it shows clear signs of mental decline a responsible population would not nominate him for president.
I don't think dropping out or "suspending" his campaign matters other than Democrats can't keep blaming him for them telling voters to go to the polls but I'd like to think irrefutable evidence of Biden's infirmity would be enough for him not to get enough delegates to clinch formally and the nominee would be decided at the convention.
You seem awfully confident about his infirmity, so presumably you think such evidence already exists. Care to share? Maybe put the links in a spoiler with some brief context, if you’re worried the mods won’t like it.
Outside of his better debate performances you can pretty much take your pick from his public appearances as where I've seen it. One of my favorites was seemingly forgetting Kamala Harris existed while they were both on the debate stage. Even Harris and Booker were taken back by it.
He seems perfectly cogent in that clip. Technically he said “the only African-American woman that had been elected to the US Senate.” Admittedly the pluperfect is not a very clear way to say “the first African-American Senator,” but it’s definitely not proof of cognitive decline.
If I say “Joe Biden has a stutter,” is that going to be a controversial statement here? I know some people think that’s a coverup or something.
I think it's clear that these are the established positions. People who see clear decline in his public speaking and those that see a stutter or whatever else. That's the point of the live TV clock test. We know a cognitive test is the one he skipped in his medical screening.
There are a lot of compilations that all include a handful of reasonable gaffs or whatever as well as what seem to be what even Andrea Mitchell suggested was him "losing a step".
Right, and if he successfully draws the clock everybody says “oh, nevermind, I guess he’s perfectly fine!” This seems like a straight-forward case of lose-lose for him: even if he draws it, there’s still a whole media cycle around “is Joe Biden sane” and the critics will only be emboldened.
Frankly, I think a big part of the problem here is that Joe Biden’s mental health has nothing to do with your objection to his candidacy, you just see it as an angle of attack. So maybe we should go back to talking about your real objections? Otherwise this conversation starts to not feel very good-faith.
I don't think it's just a GH thing. I've liked Biden a long time. He was my pick in 08, and I was pleased when he was picked for VP. I have the same concern about his declining coherency. He simply isn't the same man he was, even in 2012. I can't medically diagnose him, true. But I can observe he is make way less sense today than he was four or eight years ago. Yes, he's always been Joe 'foot in mouth' Biden. But it's not the same thing anymore, and it's very sad to see as someone who thought he could have taken on Trump four years ago. Probably I was wrong four years ago because what do I know about who could take on Trump- no-one else has figured it out yet. But still. Even four years ago Biden made more sense.
Hey, look at me.
There are no bonus points for making a call on Biden's cognitive state a few years ago as a cover for wacky takes now. There was no cover up. Polls all saw the same thing.
But MAGA support for Trump (may he live forever) far surpasses the wishful thinking of Biden's people. Kwark already posted one of his increasingly incoherent word salads but he's just doing the 'weave'. Biden could at least manage to explain the bills he was signing, yes even with an autopen. Trump (who consumes the insubmissive) is being read the cliff notes of whatever the hell he is signing and looks like to me he has very little clue as to the policy. I've gone back a few presidents signing bills but has there been anything like it?
But nevermind that for I am dazzled by the athletic body of Trump (who strikes the wicked with the thunderbolt), 6'2" and 224 pounds: "Oh Mr President, you look amazing, can you share your workout with us," said an actual person, a supporter of the most gallant of presidents. His cabinet meetings resemble the fawning of courtly sycophants of a despot, so much so it actually grossed out hyper-partisan Ann Coulter of all people.
"the most transparent presidents of all time" "bravest, toughest man in the world" "enormous compassion"... "HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY TO ALL, INCLUDING ALL THE SCUM..." What a compassionate, sane and completely not unhinged thing to post. Easter: "Happy Easter to all, including the Radical Left Lunatics..." The world respects America now, no-one has made America more respectable than the Snowflake in Chief. Everyone is saying it.
It doesn't matter how disastrous his trade and foreign policy is proving to be. The number of times I've heard in debates supporters say "I don't what he is doing, but I have faith" is seriously disturbing.
I'll say the exact same thing on Trump (the irrefutable and most sapient) as I said of Biden. I can't medically diagnose him true, but I can observe that he is making way less sense today than he was four or eight years ago. He actually talked like semi-normal person in his interviews in the 80s. And MAGA allies are doing the same exact thing as Biden's people did, desperately and ineffectively covering for their mentally declining god emperor. And more, because for MAGA everything he does must be the bestest and greatest than all who came before. All while the executive centralizes power in itself and undermines the constitutional check of the justice system. But anyone with eyes to see without motivated reasoning can see different.
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote: The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw ... my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
For you, does posting the 14 US flags at 14:14 on President's Day, which Musk later did, not add vital context to this Nazi salute discussion? Because in the context that he posted that, yes of course it was a Nazi salute.
For you, does people drawing swastikas and putting things on fire meet the nazi definition?
No, and neither does what Musk did. To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis. Musk is willing to use Nazi symbols and Nazi talking points to laugh at the left. That is beyond doubt. The question of whether he did a Nazi salute is made ridiculous by the Nazi shit he posted on Twitter. Whether he's a paid up member of Nazi orgs is a bit beside the point of what I am saying, which is that he did a Nazi salute and everyone should know that by now because of the other stuff he did.
"To be a Nazi you have to actually believe Nazi shit, or be willing to associate yourself publicly with Nazis." so like drawing swastikas and committing acts o violence?
No that's stupid. You're being stupid, I don't know if that's deliberate or not. Leftwing politics is not Nazism.. The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. You know that, for certain, and yet you continue to make this argument. If you feel like stepping out of the realm of pure rhetoric, we can continue the conversation on a sensible footing. Otherwise, if you are going to genuinely argue that left wingers hold nazi beliefs when you know it isn't true, what's the point? Read what I said about Musk, and the way people are using Nazi symbols. Musk to laugh at the left, left wingers to try to draw attention to Musk using Nazi symbols. The actual motivation here has very little to do with actual Nazis and their beliefs in either case.
"But the left are the REAL Nazis" is so fucking Alex Jones.
"The intention of drawing swastikas in this case is not to promote Nazi beliefs, but an attempt to expose them. " - yeah because conservatives were the Tesla customers by large.
I didn't say it was a clever, well judged attempt, I said it was an attempt. Are you suggesting that people drawing swastikas on Teslas are doing so because they want to promote a racially pure, white, blond hair blue eyes society? I think if you found some of these people and spoke to them you might realise that this is not what they want at all. But again, you already know this, and so do i, and so does every unlucky fool reading this post, so let's drop the pretence, and we can talk about WHY Elon Musk chose, over a short period of time, to use Nazi symbols on his social media, in his speeches. We can even talk about why he stopped doing that and what that could mean. At least we would have some agreed upon facts we could use for the basis of that conversation.
BTW using sarcasm to back up a point you are definitely wrong about doesn't make your argument sound smarter.
EPT
