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On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:14 Razyda wrote:On May 27 2025 22:53 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2025 22:05 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 15:08 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, I think vandalism is very counter-productive - I think maybe you can make an exception for something like the MLK-assassination-riots, but the normal reaction I see is that people become less sympathetic and that the chance of a political win dwindles, although here you could also argue, I guess, that riots are also more likely to happen where the chance of a political win was small in the first place. Vandalizing in general, sure. Targeted vandalism in a way that directly hurts the wealth of a drug addict mentally unstable oligarch who is openly using that wealth to control the media to push pro-Nazi views and who is seizing control of parts of our government, that's smart, healthy, patriotic, and necessary. If people had started doing it a few years ago then the Tesla stock price drops and he can't buy Twitter on credit using Tesla stock as collateral. To what degree can you really attribute Tesla's drop in stock price to vandalism? The reason I'm asking is that in Europe, I haven't really heard of any tesla-targeting vandalism, but I believe sales have tanked harder over here; the people who like EV's and the people who like Trump or are nazis are two groups with very little overlap. Additionally I can totally picture some people being like 'god damnit crime is out of control we need stronger police presence' as a response to 'somebody fucking lit my car on fire'. I’m not talking about a current Tesla price drop or current vandalism. I’m talking about the impact of a hypothetical sustained popular campaign far larger than that. Doesn’t even have to be vandalism, people can engage at their own level of radicalization. You see a Tesla charging in public, you unplug it. You park so closely behind them they can’t get out. Whatever. The public have always been able to use negative social pressure to reinforce why not to act in certain ways. They’re already doing the stronger police presence and they’re already grabbing people off the street. I’ve always thought of you as a reasonable rational man but we do not live in reasonable rational times. If the world was filled with people like you then it wouldn’t be necessary but it isn’t. Politically motivated violence has always been necessary to deal with bad actors who don’t understand that the social contract comes with obligations in addition to protections. In an ideal world the factory owner recognizes that he and the workers have a common interest in the enterprise and that maximizing his wealth by minimizing theirs is irrational. That you should find a way to make them choose to work in your factory rather than paying them in scrip and putting them so in debt that they can’t afford to quit. But in a world where a factory owner is acting irrationally and antisocially it has always been necessary for someone to remind the factory owner that there are a lot of workers who love their families and would do anything to protect their families from someone harming them and that the workers know where he lives. That it would be a terrible shame if something were to happen to his mansion. It’s the same as my theory about judges openly taking bribes. In theory we should all respect the rule of law and accept the results of verdicts we disagree with because the system depends on people being willing to say “I don’t like the outcome but I believe in the system”. But when the judges themselves openly shit on the system then the contract is broken, there is no obligation to follow it. No rational judge would break it because they derive their position from the system but we do not live in rational times. The main reason to not run a company that takes money from sick people for medicine and then doesn’t give people medicine is that it’s wrong. Even if not giving sick people medicine would maximize shareholder value. Everyone should know that, nobody should do it. But in an irrational world there’s a second reason not to run a company like that and it’s that you might get shot. Or consider taxes. The rich are literally no longer required to pay them. The poor get taxes taken out of their paycheck and the payroll system reports their earnings directly to the IRS. The rich have always been on the trust system because the IRS needs them to self report. IRS revenue agents don’t punish anyone, they don’t make up new tax laws to steal from the rich, they just find rich people who are shifting their tax burden of millions to the poor and make them stop. People who are breaking the law. During the IRS layoffs I read a lot of stories from other accountants of what they were working on on the day they were told not to go to work anymore. The richest Americans simply not paying what they were owed in the hope that they wouldn’t get caught. They were caught and then Trump decided to just let them all off. No enforcement agents, no enforcement. In that scenario why should anyone pay taxes? Rationally we should all pay what we owe but the contract has been broken. Kwark on top of being smart it seems like you now also understood what GH was explaining ad nauseum - that system cannot be fixed from inside the system. Thats why Trump election was necessary - to show people that voting doesnt change anything ( I mean you cant get more of an outside establishment candidate than Trump and still him getting elected didnt really change anyting). Trumps election did nothing? The economy cratered,
Economy is largely the same.
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
tourism is in the dump,
This is New England reporting lower bookings because some Canadians got the ick about orange man, if I recall. Europeans think this is a point - citizens don't. Foreign people expressing their quant politics through the habits of where they visit and go on vacation, should have no bearing on the political process of any other country. Moreover, they will probably forget and rebook by summer. No developed country's elections are a tourist popularity contest. That starts to be arguably an issue for tiny paradise countries that are majority tourist economies, like the Caribbean. Not the USA.
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
ports are empty,
They aren't:
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
the largest data breach in history,
Puts Manning and Snowden to shame.
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
foreign students are being thrown out of the country because they have the wrong opinion,
Is the opinion that they want to destroy western civilization?
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
us citizens are getting deported.
They aren't.
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
How could I forget, the US credit rating got downgraded for the first time in history.
At least the third time in history.
05-Aug-2011
https://disclosure.spglobal.com/ratings/en/regulatory/article/-/view/sourceId/6802837
2023-08-01
https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/fitch-cuts-us-governments-aaa-credit-rating-by-one-notch-2023-08-01/
On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
Trump himself, single handedly got the worlds most stable, safe economy, the reserve currency of the world, downgraded. A concept that was utterly unthinkable even just a year ago.
The fiscal picture of the government is largely the same as it was a year ago. The same as it was 2 years ago when S&P downgraded from AAA. The problems are the same and the trajectory is the same. The government spends trillions more than it brings in. I know you supported Musk's efforts to cut the spending part, which would help the fiscal picture, but unfortunately he gave up.
At the moment there is a Big Beautiful Bill for the next spending. The bill in Congress also does not cut enough spending to reverse course - Congress will not even move to codify the improvements made by DOGE in law.
The Big Beautiful Bill spends almost exactly like Democrats. Yet despite agreeing with 90%+ of it, for optics not a single House Democrat voted for it, and it only managed to pass by a single representative's vote because another geriatric died in office in the meantime. It may actually not have the votes to pass the Senate if senators Paul, Johnson, et al. (hopefully several al.) do a line in the sand as they seem to be indicating - it doesn't make the cuts people voted for after specifically being the only time in the last 25 years there was a mandate AND opportunity to do it. However, this just means that unlike in the House, some spendthrift Democrats will bravely cross party lines to make sure it passes, then they will be called racist Nazi traitors by House Democrats. Like half a year ago with the budget continuing resolution.
Since Musk gave up, the only way out is rapid economic ballooning that exceeds the growth of the deficit, allowing more revenues than expenditures. Or, alternatively, the political miracle of the current bill not passing, the government being shut down, and the people with red ties actually doing what they were voted for for once, since the people in blue ties have no idea what is going on and wouldn't do the right thing even if they did, because they are too dependent on keeping the gravy train flowing.
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Northern Ireland24643 Posts
On May 28 2025 02:55 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:On May 27 2025 23:14 Razyda wrote:On May 27 2025 22:53 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2025 22:05 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 15:08 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, I think vandalism is very counter-productive - I think maybe you can make an exception for something like the MLK-assassination-riots, but the normal reaction I see is that people become less sympathetic and that the chance of a political win dwindles, although here you could also argue, I guess, that riots are also more likely to happen where the chance of a political win was small in the first place. Vandalizing in general, sure. Targeted vandalism in a way that directly hurts the wealth of a drug addict mentally unstable oligarch who is openly using that wealth to control the media to push pro-Nazi views and who is seizing control of parts of our government, that's smart, healthy, patriotic, and necessary. If people had started doing it a few years ago then the Tesla stock price drops and he can't buy Twitter on credit using Tesla stock as collateral. To what degree can you really attribute Tesla's drop in stock price to vandalism? The reason I'm asking is that in Europe, I haven't really heard of any tesla-targeting vandalism, but I believe sales have tanked harder over here; the people who like EV's and the people who like Trump or are nazis are two groups with very little overlap. Additionally I can totally picture some people being like 'god damnit crime is out of control we need stronger police presence' as a response to 'somebody fucking lit my car on fire'. I’m not talking about a current Tesla price drop or current vandalism. I’m talking about the impact of a hypothetical sustained popular campaign far larger than that. Doesn’t even have to be vandalism, people can engage at their own level of radicalization. You see a Tesla charging in public, you unplug it. You park so closely behind them they can’t get out. Whatever. The public have always been able to use negative social pressure to reinforce why not to act in certain ways. They’re already doing the stronger police presence and they’re already grabbing people off the street. I’ve always thought of you as a reasonable rational man but we do not live in reasonable rational times. If the world was filled with people like you then it wouldn’t be necessary but it isn’t. Politically motivated violence has always been necessary to deal with bad actors who don’t understand that the social contract comes with obligations in addition to protections. In an ideal world the factory owner recognizes that he and the workers have a common interest in the enterprise and that maximizing his wealth by minimizing theirs is irrational. That you should find a way to make them choose to work in your factory rather than paying them in scrip and putting them so in debt that they can’t afford to quit. But in a world where a factory owner is acting irrationally and antisocially it has always been necessary for someone to remind the factory owner that there are a lot of workers who love their families and would do anything to protect their families from someone harming them and that the workers know where he lives. That it would be a terrible shame if something were to happen to his mansion. It’s the same as my theory about judges openly taking bribes. In theory we should all respect the rule of law and accept the results of verdicts we disagree with because the system depends on people being willing to say “I don’t like the outcome but I believe in the system”. But when the judges themselves openly shit on the system then the contract is broken, there is no obligation to follow it. No rational judge would break it because they derive their position from the system but we do not live in rational times. The main reason to not run a company that takes money from sick people for medicine and then doesn’t give people medicine is that it’s wrong. Even if not giving sick people medicine would maximize shareholder value. Everyone should know that, nobody should do it. But in an irrational world there’s a second reason not to run a company like that and it’s that you might get shot. Or consider taxes. The rich are literally no longer required to pay them. The poor get taxes taken out of their paycheck and the payroll system reports their earnings directly to the IRS. The rich have always been on the trust system because the IRS needs them to self report. IRS revenue agents don’t punish anyone, they don’t make up new tax laws to steal from the rich, they just find rich people who are shifting their tax burden of millions to the poor and make them stop. People who are breaking the law. During the IRS layoffs I read a lot of stories from other accountants of what they were working on on the day they were told not to go to work anymore. The richest Americans simply not paying what they were owed in the hope that they wouldn’t get caught. They were caught and then Trump decided to just let them all off. No enforcement agents, no enforcement. In that scenario why should anyone pay taxes? Rationally we should all pay what we owe but the contract has been broken. Kwark on top of being smart it seems like you now also understood what GH was explaining ad nauseum - that system cannot be fixed from inside the system. Thats why Trump election was necessary - to show people that voting doesnt change anything ( I mean you cant get more of an outside establishment candidate than Trump and still him getting elected didnt really change anyting). Trumps election did nothing? The economy cratered, Economy is largely the same. This is New England reporting lower bookings because some Canadians got the ick about orange man, if I recall. Europeans think this is a point - citizens don't. Foreign people expressing their quant politics through the habits of where they visit and go on vacation, should have no bearing on the political process of any other country. Moreover, they will probably forget and rebook by summer. No developed country's elections are a tourist popularity contest. That starts to be arguably an issue for tiny paradise countries that are majority tourist economies, like the Caribbean. Not the USA. They aren't: + Show Spoiler +Puts Manning and Snowden to shame. Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
foreign students are being thrown out of the country because they have the wrong opinion, Is the opinion that they want to destroy western civilization? They aren't. Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
How could I forget, the US credit rating got downgraded for the first time in history. At least the third time in history. 05-Aug-2011 https://disclosure.spglobal.com/ratings/en/regulatory/article/-/view/sourceId/68028372023-08-01 https://www.reuters.com/markets/us/fitch-cuts-us-governments-aaa-credit-rating-by-one-notch-2023-08-01/Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:43 Gorsameth wrote:
Trump himself, single handedly got the worlds most stable, safe economy, the reserve currency of the world, downgraded. A concept that was utterly unthinkable even just a year ago. The fiscal picture of the government is largely the same as it was a year ago. The same as it was 2 years ago when S&P downgraded from AAA. The problems are the same and the trajectory is the same. The government spends trillions more than it brings in. I know you supported Musk's efforts to cut the spending part, which would help the fiscal picture, but unfortunately he gave up. At the moment there is a Big Beautiful Bill for the next spending. The bill in Congress also does not cut enough spending to reverse course - Congress will not even move to codify the improvements made by DOGE in law. The Big Beautiful Bill spends almost exactly like Democrats. Yet despite agreeing with 90%+ of it, for optics not a single House Democrat voted for it, and it only managed to pass by a single representative's vote because another geriatric died in office in the meantime. It may actually not have the votes to pass the Senate if senators Paul, Johnson, et al. (hopefully several al.) do a line in the sand as they seem to be indicating - it doesn't make the cuts people voted for after specifically being the only time in the last 25 years there was a mandate AND opportunity to do it. However, this just means that unlike in the House, some spendthrift Democrats will bravely cross party lines to make sure it passes, then they will be called racist Nazi traitors by House Democrats. Like half a year ago with the budget continuing resolution. Since Musk gave up, the only way out is rapid economic ballooning that exceeds the growth of the deficit, allowing more revenues than expenditures. Or, alternatively, the political miracle of the current bill not passing, the government being shut down, and the people with red ties actually doing what they were voted for for once, since the people in blue ties have no idea what is going on and wouldn't do the right thing even if they did, because they are too dependent on keeping the gravy train flowing.
Snowden and Manning weren’t data breaches, they were whistleblowers whatever one thinks of their motivations.
It’s quite tricky to prevent people who really want to leak something, leaking something. It’s quite a reasonable expectation that the Secretary of Defence, who presumably does not, does not.
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I wasn't even talking about the signal chats but Elon and DOGE, you seriously think they didn't walk away with a shitload of data?
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Northern Ireland24643 Posts
On May 28 2025 03:13 Gorsameth wrote:
I wasn't even talking about the signal chats but Elon and DOGE, you seriously think they didn't walk away with a shitload of data?
It’s like having a particularly bad bout of diarrhoea, there’s so much shit you lose track.
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United States42364 Posts
Oblade is not living in a shared reality.
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On May 28 2025 03:17 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 03:13 Gorsameth wrote:
I wasn't even talking about the signal chats but Elon and DOGE, you seriously think they didn't walk away with a shitload of data?
It’s like having a particularly bad bout of diarrhoea, there’s so much shit you lose track.
believe it or not, there's a method to it. Flooding the Zone with shit was and is Steve Bannon's war cry.
Trump is just a generational talent at spewing though, mixed with his shamelessness an unbeatable combo.
//edit: lol@ Musk giving up. oh he tried, he and Doge were a failure and are damaged goods - he being the face of failure he had to go from Trump world. once he got the stench of losing he was a bad hombre for dear leader.
and critical investors also got antsy.
the age old question what came first apparently.
Doge and the richest man in he world being a bad joke while cutting critical services and thousands of Federal employees... and then Tesla's brand value (and some dealerships) going up in flames or was it the other way around? food for thought!
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On May 28 2025 03:18 KwarK wrote:
Oblade is not living in a shared reality.
I found his denial of citizen deportation to be particularly alarming.
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Moms are the best
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/27/us/politics/trump-pardon-paul-walczak-tax-crimes.html
Tax fraud Paul Walczak's appealed to trump for a pardon for his million dollar tax evasion.. but wasn't heard...
(Fago is Paulys mum)
....Then, Ms. Fago was invited to a $1-million-per-person fund-raising dinner last month that promised face-to-face access to Mr. Trump at his private Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Fla.
Less than three weeks after she attended the dinner, Mr. Trump signed a full and unconditional pardon.
It came just in the nick of time for Mr. Walczak, sparing him from having to pay nearly $4.4 million in restitution and from reporting to prison for an 18-month sentence that had been handed down just 12 days earlier. A judge had justified the incarceration by declaring that there “is not a get-out-of-jail-free card” for the rich.
HAHA TRUMP SHOWED THAT JUDGE!
I wonder if Trump ritually pisses on some physical manifestation of the social contract, or if he is just too dense to get why he does it figuratively day by day.
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If the reality oBlade is living in is one that, for example, says that Biden was mentally unfit to be president then I think he's got a leg up on pretty much this entire thread already. Inventing a world that doesn't exist is a common theme on the left as well as the right at the moment.
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United States42364 Posts
Biden’s presidency was characterized by predictable stable well thought out leadership under which America prospered. This is yet another example of conservatives not living in the shared reality. Biden didn’t change policy on a whim and change it so frequently that his press secretary was still in the process of announcing the old policy when the new policy was announced on twitter without the knowledge of the cabinet. I don’t know how impaired Biden may have been because he built a strong experienced cabinet full of leaders who could build upon decades of existing structures and that’s the fucking point. He had gaffes like using the wrong names but he didn’t randomly announce that the United States had just annexed Gaza when it hadn’t.
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I will grant it was "predictable, stable, and well thought out" (depending on if "well thought out" implies success) but I will not agree to the conclusion. All that about Trump is irrelevant to the point, although if you are having trouble acknowledging what was obvious during his presidency that might be a sign you still have a problem seeing reality now. Just like when talking about violence, there's a whole group of people who have lost all credibility to opine, and that's probably part of the reason so many shrug at Trump. His opposition has tarnished itself (indeed it's been said that Trump's super power is to make others sink even lower). Part of the reason "fake news" works is because, for example, the entire media willing plays coverup for a president who is non compos mentis. Why trust those people any more?
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On May 28 2025 03:18 KwarK wrote:
Oblade is not living in a shared reality.
How many hypothetical gestapo do you suppose you can personally disappear before they get you?
On May 28 2025 00:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 00:14 WombaT wrote:
There’s also the negative side-effect of a misapplication of non-legal political activism, be it perceived or otherwise and it tends to further retrench people into the very shackles you’re trying to break. And those shackles of ‘free speech man, and anything outside of systemic and legal frameworks isn’t cool’ are already extremely tight.
Those people will go along with whatever is happening. They're just not engaged so who gives a fuck what they think. They're not going to do anything when the gestapo grab their brown neighbour and they're not going to do anything when a member of the gestapo goes missing one night. It doesn't actually take a high proportion of the population to do most things, it just takes a motivated subset. Take the Tea Party, they just needed to show up to primaries when most Republicans didn't, the majority of Republicans might have preferred the mainstream candidate but they're still going to vote R when the time comes.
I mean, it's simple really. Elections are so important, that when we lose, it's fascism, and we have to take matters into our own hands using our agency which most people don't even use. We can use this agency to oppose the government outside the law. It's easy. Doing things is easy. You can just do things.
Just as an example, with a tiny bit of agency, the Tea Party were able to win elections handily with little work.
Unfortunately we can't use our own motivation to replicate that specific success, so the arson will continue until people come around.
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United States42364 Posts
On May 28 2025 04:58 oBlade wrote:How many hypothetical gestapo do you suppose you can personally disappear before they get you? Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 00:21 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 00:14 WombaT wrote:
There’s also the negative side-effect of a misapplication of non-legal political activism, be it perceived or otherwise and it tends to further retrench people into the very shackles you’re trying to break. And those shackles of ‘free speech man, and anything outside of systemic and legal frameworks isn’t cool’ are already extremely tight.
Those people will go along with whatever is happening. They're just not engaged so who gives a fuck what they think. They're not going to do anything when the gestapo grab their brown neighbour and they're not going to do anything when a member of the gestapo goes missing one night. It doesn't actually take a high proportion of the population to do most things, it just takes a motivated subset. Take the Tea Party, they just needed to show up to primaries when most Republicans didn't, the majority of Republicans might have preferred the mainstream candidate but they're still going to vote R when the time comes. I mean, it's simple really. Elections are so important, that when we lose, it's fascism, and we have to take matters into our own hands using our agency which most people don't even use. We can use this agency to oppose the government outside the law. It's easy. Doing things is easy. You can just do things. Just as an example, with a tiny bit of agency, the Tea Party were able to win elections handily with little work. Unfortunately we can't use our own motivation to replicate that specific success, so the arson will continue until people come around.
Like I said, you’re just not living in the shared reality.
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On May 28 2025 04:58 oBlade wrote:How many hypothetical gestapo do you suppose you can personally disappear before they get you? Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 00:21 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 00:14 WombaT wrote:
There’s also the negative side-effect of a misapplication of non-legal political activism, be it perceived or otherwise and it tends to further retrench people into the very shackles you’re trying to break. And those shackles of ‘free speech man, and anything outside of systemic and legal frameworks isn’t cool’ are already extremely tight.
Those people will go along with whatever is happening. They're just not engaged so who gives a fuck what they think. They're not going to do anything when the gestapo grab their brown neighbour and they're not going to do anything when a member of the gestapo goes missing one night. It doesn't actually take a high proportion of the population to do most things, it just takes a motivated subset. Take the Tea Party, they just needed to show up to primaries when most Republicans didn't, the majority of Republicans might have preferred the mainstream candidate but they're still going to vote R when the time comes. I mean, it's simple really. Elections are so important, that when we lose, it's fascism, and we have to take matters into our own hands using our agency which most people don't even use. We can use this agency to oppose the government outside the law. It's easy. Doing things is easy. You can just do things. Just as an example, with a tiny bit of agency, the Tea Party were able to win elections handily with little work. Unfortunately we can't use our own motivation to replicate that specific success, so the arson will continue until people come around.
Imagine thinking that that is why people think Trump is a fascist. People are going to continue to ridicule you if you're going to strawman them and refuse to engage with reality.
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Northern Ireland24643 Posts
On May 28 2025 04:49 Introvert wrote:
I will grant it was "predictable, stable, and well thought out" (depending on if "well thought out" implies success) but I will not agree to the conclusion. All that about Trump is irrelevant to the point, although if you are having trouble acknowledging what was obvious during his presidency that might be a sign you still have a problem seeing reality now. Just like when talking about violence, there's a whole group of people who have lost all credibility to opine, and that's probably part of the reason so many shrug at Trump. His opposition has tarnished itself (indeed it's been said that Trump's super power is to make others sink even lower). Part of the reason "fake news" works is because, for example, the entire media willing plays coverup for a president who is non compos mentis. Why trust those people any more?
Did they do that?
I find it inconceivable that at least some weren’t in that loop. But the entire media?
Considering how the man was actively shielded from fucking up, I imagine it was news to rather a lot.
I pretty vividly recall that infamous debate, and especially the reaction here, which was largely the same as mine. ‘Oh shit, Biden really is actually cooked’
Crucially, there was rather the quick acknowledgement from many quarters that his future candidacy was realistically untenable. And he got replaced. That did happen. In a parallel universe where it didn’t, I’d 100% ageee with that point.
On violence, difference of moral frameworks there for me, I have my positions but I see plenty of validity in other arguments.
The problem is, we’re seemingly collectively not living in split moral spheres, somewhat bound by some central connective tissue, but as Kwark says just outright split realities.
As I’m sure you’ll recall we often disagree, from my end it’s not an issue of fundamental factual disagreement, but how we parse it differently.
Other folks, it’s simply not that. Elon Musk decides what the inauguration really needs are some Nazi salutes, people deny he even did them.
Even though my own position is that he was shitposting IRL, and while a cunt probably isn’t a literal Nazi, to deny the gestures occurred is utter, utter bollocks. One is either a genuine moron to think otherwise, or alternatively, you think I am.
Not particularly linked to my prior point, but first example that sprung to mind, and this happens all the time.
It’s not even political spin, which I tend to dislike but do understand the necessity of, it’s just outright fabrication and mendacity. And it clings to this administration and their enablers like a gimp suit, to an unprecedented level.
Do others do this? Sure. But the frequency, the sheer gall exhibited, it’s not even close.
People are within their rights to do such things, others are within their rights to think they’re utterly full of shit.
Not a critique of you personally, but a more general, wider observation by the way.
I mean I thought blocking Merrick Garland to the SC while abandoning that justifying rationale to confirm Kavanaugh was total, total nonsense. Had many an argument with those who felt otherwise.
We’re not even at that level half the time now. The ‘debate’ is idk, wherever Merrick Garland was even blocked to begin with. Or if he even exists, or is like an AI construct or something.
The left as it were, less so. The Conservatives I talked to in my teens or early 20s, also less so. But it’s an absolutely rampant cancer amongst current right wing populists movements, and not just in the US
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United States42364 Posts
Trump explaining momentum to West Point graduates:
Fourth is don't lose your momentum. Momentum's an amazing thing. Keep it going. I tell a story sometimes about a man who was a great, great real estate man.
He was a man who was admired for real estate all over the world, actually, but all over the country. He built Levittowns. He started as a man who built one house, then he built two, then he built five, then he built 20, then he built 1,000, then he built 2,000 and 3,000 a year. And he got very big, very big.
He was great at what he did. You see them all over the country still, Levittowns, so a long time ago. But he was, uh, the first of the really, really big home builders. And he became very rich, became a very rich man, and then he decided to sell. He was offered a lot of money by a big conglomerate, Gulf and Western, big conglomerate.
They didn't do real estate, they didn't know anything about it, but they saw the money he was making; they wanted to take it to a public company. And they gave him a lot of money, tremendous amount of money. More money than he ever thought he'd get. And he sold this company and he had nothing to do. He ended up getting a divorce, found a new wife.
Could you say a trophy wife? I guess we can say a trophy wife. It didn't work out too well. But it doesn't -- And that doesn't work out too well, I must tell you. A lot of trophy wives doesn't work out, but it made him happy for a little while at least. But he found a new wife. He sold his little boat and he got a big yacht.
He had one of the biggest yachts anywhere in the world. He moved for a time to Monte Carlo and he led the good life. And time went by and he got bored. And 15 years later, the company that he sold to called him and they said, "The housing business is not for us." You have to understand, when Bill Levitt was hot, when he had momentum, he'd go to the job sites every night.
He'd pick up every loose nail, he'd pick up every scrap of wood. If there was a bolt or a screw laying on the ground, he'd pick it up and he'd use it the next day and putting together a house. But now he was spoiled and he was rich, he was really rich. And they called and they said, "This isn't for us, this business.
We need to do other things. Would you like to buy it back? We'll sell it back to you cheap." And they did. He bought it, he bought it. He thought he made a great deal and he was all excited. But it was 15 years later, he lost a lot of momentum. Remember the word momentum, and he lost everything, it just didn't work, he lost everything.
And I was sitting at a party on Fifth Avenue one night a long time ago, and you had the biggest people in New York, the biggest people in the country, all in that party, and they were all saluting each other, how great they were, they were all telling each other, "I'm greater than you." It gets to be really, gives you a headache sometimes, but they had all these people telling their own stories about how fantastic.
A cocktail party, and I looked over, and I was doing well, I was, I don't know, I was invited to the party, so I had to be doing well. I was very, very young, but I made a name in real estate. And I looked over, and at the party sitting in a corner all by himself, nobody was talking to him, was Mr. Levitt.
He had just gone bankrupt, lost everything, he had lost everything, his home, everything. And I went over and talked to him because he was in the real estate business and I loved real estate, and I said, "Hello, Mr. Levitt, how are you?" He said, "Hello, Donald, it's nice to meet you." He knew me from being in the business.
I said, "Uh, so how's it going?" He goes, "Not well. It's really not going well, as you've probably read, it's been a very, very tough period for me, son." And I said, "So what happened? it's just, anything you can do?" He goes, "No, there's not a thing I can do." He said, I'll never forget, he said, "I've lost my momentum, I just didn't have it. I used to have it but I lost my momentum." So it's a story I tell, and you have to know when you have the momentum, but sometimes you have to also know when you've lost the momentum and leaving a field, sometimes leaving what you're doing sometimes is okay, but you gotta have momentum, but you have to know if that momentum's gone, you have to know when to say it's time to get out.
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On May 28 2025 06:11 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 04:49 Introvert wrote:
I will grant it was "predictable, stable, and well thought out" (depending on if "well thought out" implies success) but I will not agree to the conclusion. All that about Trump is irrelevant to the point, although if you are having trouble acknowledging what was obvious during his presidency that might be a sign you still have a problem seeing reality now. Just like when talking about violence, there's a whole group of people who have lost all credibility to opine, and that's probably part of the reason so many shrug at Trump. His opposition has tarnished itself (indeed it's been said that Trump's super power is to make others sink even lower). Part of the reason "fake news" works is because, for example, the entire media willing plays coverup for a president who is non compos mentis. Why trust those people any more? Did they do that? I find it inconceivable that at least some weren’t in that loop. But the entire media? Considering how the man was actively shielded from fucking up, I imagine it was news to rather a lot. I pretty vividly recall that infamous debate, and especially the reaction here, which was largely the same as mine. ‘Oh shit, Biden really is actually cooked’ Crucially, there was rather the quick acknowledgement from many quarters that his future candidacy was realistically untenable. And he got replaced. That did happen. In a parallel universe where it didn’t, I’d 100% ageee with that point. On violence, difference of moral frameworks there for me, I have my positions but I see plenty of validity in other arguments. The problem is, we’re seemingly collectively not living in split moral spheres, somewhat bound by some central connective tissue, but as Kwark says just outright split realities. As I’m sure you’ll recall we often disagree, from my end it’s not an issue of fundamental factual disagreement, but how we parse it differently. Other folks, it’s simply not that. Elon Musk decides what the inauguration really needs are some Nazi salutes, people deny he even did them. Even though my own position is that he was shitposting IRL, and while a cunt probably isn’t a literal Nazi, to deny the gestures occurred is utter, utter bollocks. One is either a genuine moron to think otherwise, or alternatively, you think I am. Not particularly linked to my prior point, but first example that sprung to mind, and this happens all the time. It’s not even political spin, which I tend to dislike but do understand the necessity of, it’s just outright fabrication and mendacity. And it clings to this administration and their enablers like a gimp suit, to an unprecedented level. Do others do this? Sure. But the frequency, the sheer gall exhibited, it’s not even close. People are within their rights to do such things, others are within their rights to think they’re utterly full of shit. Not a critique of you personally, but a more general, wider observation by the way. I mean I thought blocking Merrick Garland to the SC while abandoning that justifying rationale to confirm Kavanaugh was total, total nonsense. Had many an argument with those who felt otherwise. We’re not even at that level half the time now. The ‘debate’ is idk, wherever Merrick Garland was even blocked to begin with. Or if he even exists, or is like an AI construct or something. The left as it were, less so. The Conservatives I talked to in my teens or early 20s, also less so. But it’s an absolutely rampant cancer amongst current right wing populists movements, and not just in the US
Re: Biden, yes they did. And you are kind of missing the point. It obvious YEARS ago. I was in this thread in 2019 saying that Biden was dems best shot to beat Trump but his clear mental slipping should be cause for concern. You and everyone else here get zero points for only recognizing it when it became more advantageous to do so. Maybe I'm remembering incorrectly but BlackJack and I were some of the only people pointing this out and we both took heat for it.
It wasn't until that debate (and the realization that he would lose) that it became ok to say anything. To do otherwise was to give Republicans ammunition, and that couldn't be allowed. recall here during Biden's last state of the union how much praise he was getting how showed that Republican criticism of his mental acuity were just bad faith attacks on the man! Some out there now are claiming they were just duped by people inside the administration, which is itself a damning indictment of our "respectable" journalists. They couldn't see what was in front of them. They are all on the same team, and they act like it. And we mustn't forget the politicians who behind the scenes were concerned but went out in public singing his praises. I believe it was Sec of Commerce Raimondo who claimed she could hardly keep up with Biden, he was so good! Lest we think fawning, self-debasing praise is merely the path taken by Republican cabinet members. The clips and the articles are limitless.
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw. Bannon did one later to be edgy but clearly looked uncomfortable doing it. Again though, this goes back to credibility. Basically no Democrat has any credibility on it because they call everything facism. maybe Elon did do it in a wink-and-nod kind of way, but the only people who would believe it are those who were already inclined to think he might be a Nazi. As an example, when I read Blackjack say it clearly looked like a Nazi salute I did a "hold-up" moment in my own head to double check because he wouldn't say something like that if he didn't think it was true. At least to me, he has some credibility.
I've talked about Merrick Garland here so many times by now, but once again I will give the one sentence summary. While it was the longest vacancy of its type yet, it more often the case that supreme court nominees get blocked in election years if the Senate is controlled by the opposition than that they are confirmed. It would have been MORE UNUSUAL if the Republican senate had confirmed him. Meanwhile, Kavanaugh was nominated by a president of the party that controlled the senate, it was entirely normal, even in a midterm election year, for that nominee to be confirmed.
So yes, as the above shows, we do seem to be living in alternate realities, but my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes, call violence or vandalism good, or ignore history.
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United States42364 Posts
On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote:
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw
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my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes
wow
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On May 28 2025 09:00 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote:
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw
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my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes wow
See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism.
edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
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United States42364 Posts
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EPT![[image loading]](https://i0.wp.com/www.globaltrademag.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/Figure-1.-U.S.-Container-Import-Volume-Year-over-Year-Comparison.png)
