|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Northern Ireland24660 Posts
On May 28 2025 09:03 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 09:00 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote:
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw
...
my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes wow See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism. edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him?
I said in my post that doing a Nazi salute doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a Nazi. Hell otherwise actors in WW2 films are a bunch of cunts.
There is territory there for discussion. One can be a provocateur, or just a bit of a cunt and do such a thing, without necessarily being a subscriber to Nazi Digest. Sure.
That Musk did not do such a salute (more than once incidentally), I don’t think is remotely, remotely plausible whatsoever. My brain starts to break when I try to put myself into the headspace of someone who can watch that footage and somehow deny that that is the case. It is genuinely incomprehensible to me. I’m capable and tbh make too much of a hobby of trying to put myself into the headspace of some of the most reprehensible people on the planet, and there’s almost always some crumb there that makes some kind of sense.
Hell, actual Nazis make more sense to me than ‘that’s not a Nazi salute’.
I will assume it doesn’t need stating for anyone based on my post history, but ‘makes sense’ is in no way any kind of endorsement or excuse-making.
Shall respond properly to your longer post when doggo isn’t in the throes of consistently vomiting
|
United States42370 Posts
Fortunately he can just accept the reality his eyes tell him and so when he literally sees someone celebrating their political victory in front of a crowd of right wing supporters raise their right arm and extend it stiffly at a 45 degree angle with their fingers extended then it's probably a k-pop thing.
The reason he knows it can't be a Nazi thing is because everyone was already saying the guy was promoting a whole lot of Nazi shit and when the guy that everyone is calling a Nazi does a Nazi gesture then you know for sure that he's not a Nazi because why would a guy who says Nazi shit do a Nazi gesture.
|
Northern Ireland24660 Posts
On May 28 2025 10:01 KwarK wrote:
Fortunately he can just accept the reality his eyes tell him and so when he literally sees someone celebrating their political victory in front of a crowd of right wing supporters raise their right arm and extend it stiffly at a 45 degree angle with their fingers extended then it's probably a k-pop thing.
The reason he knows it can't be a Nazi thing is because everyone was already saying the guy was promoting a whole lot of Nazi shit and when the guy that everyone is calling a Nazi does a Nazi gesture then you know for sure that he's not a Nazi because why would a guy who says Nazi shit do a Nazi gesture.
He did Nazi it.
I’ll get my coat for that unforgivable pun
|
On May 28 2025 09:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 09:03 Introvert wrote:On May 28 2025 09:00 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote:
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw
...
my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes wow See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism. edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him? I said in my post that doing a Nazi salute doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a Nazi. Hell otherwise actors in WW2 films are a bunch of cunts. There is territory there for discussion. One can be a provocateur, or just a bit of a cunt and do such a thing, without necessarily being a subscriber to Nazi Digest. Sure. That Musk did not do such a salute (more than once incidentally), I don’t think is remotely, remotely plausible whatsoever. My brain starts to break when I try to put myself into the headspace of someone who can watch that footage and somehow deny that that is the case. It is genuinely incomprehensible to me. I’m capable and tbh make too much of a hobby of trying to put myself into the headspace of some of the most reprehensible people on the planet, and there’s almost always some crumb there that makes some kind of sense. Hell, actual Nazis make more sense to me than ‘that’s not a Nazi salute’. I will assume it doesn’t need stating for anyone based on my post history, but ‘makes sense’ is in no way any kind of endorsement or excuse-making. Shall respond properly to your longer post when doggo isn’t in the throes of consistently vomiting
I admit I'm not an expert on the exact hand and finger placements required for the various salutes, but I also don' t trust people who say that things are facism when they clearly aren't, and so I don't simply believe them about other things. If you think, for example, that deporting people without a legal right to be here is facism, then I am going to doubt your claim about what Elon did. That doesn't mean, contra Kwak, that I believe the opposite, but it means I don't take that person's word for it. This is not a difficult position to understand when stated as such but for Orange Man Bad types it's basically impossible.
On May 28 2025 10:01 KwarK wrote:
Fortunately he can just accept the reality his eyes tell him and so when he literally sees someone celebrating their political victory in front of a crowd of right wing supporters raises their right arm and extends it stiffly at a 45 degree angle with their fingers extended then it's probably a k-pop thing.
The reason he knows it can't be a Nazi thing is because everyone was already saying the guy was promoting a whole lot of Nazi shit and when the guy that everyone is calling a Nazi does a Nazi gesture then you know for sure that he's not a Nazi because why would a guy who says Nazi shit do a Nazi gesture.
See above.
I didn't say "I know it's not a Nazi thing because everyone was already saying it was." I said it didn't look like one to me at first glance. And since I don't think he's a Nazi, and still don't, I was inclined to believe it either A) wasn't or B) Elon thinks he's being provocative giving the middle finger to people who call him a Nazi. I haven't exactly gone to bat for Elon in this thread, think he does a lot of stupid stuff, and I wasn't a fan of Tesla before it was cool. But I wouldn't trust KwarK with that judgement for anything because he thinks things are so bad that violence is justified. Clear detachment from reality so extreme that it calls into question the interpretive and moral framework you are using.
Or put another way I simply don't trust you or people who say what you do either way. Could be right, could be wrong, but more importantly it might just be meaningless noise and rage.
|
United States42370 Posts
He’s probably a k-pop guy. K-pop guys are big fans of AFD and want to bring Nazis back onto twitter and promote great replacement theories. To me the k-pop salute is just confirmation that it’s a k-pop thing.
|
lmao Musk is a dude obsessed with the great replacement theory, spends several hours a day being a reply guy to actual honest to god self admitted fascists on Twitter, does nothing but boost said people on Twitter, and ties himself with an European political party so closely aligned to fascism that other far right parties in Europe keep them at arms length.
The guy throws two perfect Nazi salutes with actual power despite being a guy that moves like an uncoordinated crab on its back and we’re to believe they were not Nazi salutes. Get out of here.
|
United States42370 Posts
Consider the case of k-pop enthusiast Nick Fuentes who in 2023 declared I think the Holocaust is exaggerated. I don't hate Hitler. I think there's a Jewish conspiracy. I believe in race realism.
Elon was such a fan of k-pop that he personally intervened to get Fuentes back on twitter where the algorithm now promotes his k-pop posts.
|
On May 28 2025 10:40 KwarK wrote:Consider the case of k-pop enthusiast Nick Fuentes who in 2023 declared Show nested quote +I think the Holocaust is exaggerated. I don't hate Hitler. I think there's a Jewish conspiracy. I believe in race realism. Elon was such a fan of k-pop that he personally intervened to get Fuentes back on twitter where the algorithm now promotes his k-pop posts.
Please, Nick Fuentes never said he was a k-pop enthusiast don’t slander the man. We have to give him the benefit of doubt and let him speak in the market place of ideas.
In all seriousness, Musk injecting himself in the German elections and throwing himself behind the AfD is pretty much all you need to know about the man’s politics even if you are so stupid to ignore years of Musk screaming at the world how much of a brain rotted terminally online 8chan groyper he is. It’s real odd that Musk constantly keeps agreeing with and batting for honest to god self admitted white nationalists on Twitter, it’s for sure just a coincidence.
I think it says a lot about a person who looks all of this ~waves at everything Musk has put into the world~ and still says “I can’t say for sure or not this guy is a piece of shit who would throw out two Nazi salutes for the lulz”.
|
United States42370 Posts
On May 28 2025 10:44 Hat Trick of Today wrote:
In all seriousness, Musk injecting himself in the German elections and throwing himself behind the AfD is pretty much all you need to know about the man’s politics
I'm not saying I know for sure but when I first heard that Musk was vocally supportive of the German ultranationalists then I, like everyone else, assumed it was a k-pop thing. Because I have the clearest and most unbiased view of reality and when my eyes see something then I believe them. My reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes, if they're German and they're ultranationalists then it's k-pop, simple as that. Everyone but me stretches the truth to fit a narrative but not me, for me truth is objective and instantaneous. I see the straight arm fingers extended 45 degree angle salute at a right wing political rally celebrating victory and I cleave straight to the k-pop symbolism.
|
On May 27 2025 23:34 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2025 23:14 Razyda wrote:On May 27 2025 22:53 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2025 22:05 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 15:08 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, I think vandalism is very counter-productive - I think maybe you can make an exception for something like the MLK-assassination-riots, but the normal reaction I see is that people become less sympathetic and that the chance of a political win dwindles, although here you could also argue, I guess, that riots are also more likely to happen where the chance of a political win was small in the first place. Vandalizing in general, sure. Targeted vandalism in a way that directly hurts the wealth of a drug addict mentally unstable oligarch who is openly using that wealth to control the media to push pro-Nazi views and who is seizing control of parts of our government, that's smart, healthy, patriotic, and necessary. If people had started doing it a few years ago then the Tesla stock price drops and he can't buy Twitter on credit using Tesla stock as collateral. To what degree can you really attribute Tesla's drop in stock price to vandalism? The reason I'm asking is that in Europe, I haven't really heard of any tesla-targeting vandalism, but I believe sales have tanked harder over here; the people who like EV's and the people who like Trump or are nazis are two groups with very little overlap. Additionally I can totally picture some people being like 'god damnit crime is out of control we need stronger police presence' as a response to 'somebody fucking lit my car on fire'. I’m not talking about a current Tesla price drop or current vandalism. I’m talking about the impact of a hypothetical sustained popular campaign far larger than that. Doesn’t even have to be vandalism, people can engage at their own level of radicalization. You see a Tesla charging in public, you unplug it. You park so closely behind them they can’t get out. Whatever. The public have always been able to use negative social pressure to reinforce why not to act in certain ways. They’re already doing the stronger police presence and they’re already grabbing people off the street. I’ve always thought of you as a reasonable rational man but we do not live in reasonable rational times. If the world was filled with people like you then it wouldn’t be necessary but it isn’t. Politically motivated violence has always been necessary to deal with bad actors who don’t understand that the social contract comes with obligations in addition to protections. In an ideal world the factory owner recognizes that he and the workers have a common interest in the enterprise and that maximizing his wealth by minimizing theirs is irrational. That you should find a way to make them choose to work in your factory rather than paying them in scrip and putting them so in debt that they can’t afford to quit. But in a world where a factory owner is acting irrationally and antisocially it has always been necessary for someone to remind the factory owner that there are a lot of workers who love their families and would do anything to protect their families from someone harming them and that the workers know where he lives. That it would be a terrible shame if something were to happen to his mansion. It’s the same as my theory about judges openly taking bribes. In theory we should all respect the rule of law and accept the results of verdicts we disagree with because the system depends on people being willing to say “I don’t like the outcome but I believe in the system”. But when the judges themselves openly shit on the system then the contract is broken, there is no obligation to follow it. No rational judge would break it because they derive their position from the system but we do not live in rational times. The main reason to not run a company that takes money from sick people for medicine and then doesn’t give people medicine is that it’s wrong. Even if not giving sick people medicine would maximize shareholder value. Everyone should know that, nobody should do it. But in an irrational world there’s a second reason not to run a company like that and it’s that you might get shot. Or consider taxes. The rich are literally no longer required to pay them. The poor get taxes taken out of their paycheck and the payroll system reports their earnings directly to the IRS. The rich have always been on the trust system because the IRS needs them to self report. IRS revenue agents don’t punish anyone, they don’t make up new tax laws to steal from the rich, they just find rich people who are shifting their tax burden of millions to the poor and make them stop. People who are breaking the law. During the IRS layoffs I read a lot of stories from other accountants of what they were working on on the day they were told not to go to work anymore. The richest Americans simply not paying what they were owed in the hope that they wouldn’t get caught. They were caught and then Trump decided to just let them all off. No enforcement agents, no enforcement. In that scenario why should anyone pay taxes? Rationally we should all pay what we owe but the contract has been broken. Kwark on top of being smart it seems like you now also understood what GH was explaining ad nauseum - that system cannot be fixed from inside the system. Thats why Trump election was necessary - to show people that voting doesnt change anything ( I mean you cant get more of an outside establishment candidate than Trump and still him getting elected didnt really change anyting). My arguments with GH come down to a few key issues (in the original draft this said two issues but it turns out I really don't like GH) 1. He's insufferably dense. 2. He's terminally online. It's like if left wing zoomer tik tok revolution wished to be a real boy. 3. His debate style is mostly to just make up a position and ascribe it to the other party. Presumably he knows that the other party knows that they don't have that position but he still thinks that it'll work somehow. 4. He literally doesn't understand how the simple plurality electoral system game theory works. 5. He refuses to learn. 6. He's roleplaying a revolutionary online in a way that is utterly contemptible to me. I've repeatedly asked him what, if any, direct action he actually supports and he won't endorse so much as returning a library book late. It's about as dumb as 2010 era facebook posts reading "if this post gets 1000 likes then homelessness is over". When the topic of a general strike last came up his plan for one was that people sign up on a website because if enough people sign up on a website then socialism. That was literally it. As if general strikes aren't things that have happened in the past that can be looked at to see what worked and why. 7. He's a tankie and all tankies, without exception, are scum. 8. He has no answer to how a revolution makes anything better. He can't even describe what things look like after his revolution. He can't describe his ideal end state, let alone lay out a path for getting there. He has no answer for how to avoid the pitfalls of previous revolutions that were usurped by totalitarians. He has put literally zero thought into any of the actual questions that go with a revolution and simply ignores those issues when called out. I can be aligned with GH on the need for direct action and still find him contemptible. Also voting absolutely changes things. Voting is how we fucking got here. If your conclusion from the election of Trump is that voting doesn't matter then I genuinely can't even with you.
not bolded - fair play.
bolded - and what did it changed for you? you disagree with the government, all you can do is complain on the internet with no effect whatsoever, how is that different from Biden, Obama, Bush, Clinton times?? Also I am guessing you were voting in previous elections? how did that worked out? Let me quote wise man here: "Voting is how we fucking got here"
On May 28 2025 00:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 00:14 WombaT wrote:
There’s also the negative side-effect of a misapplication of non-legal political activism, be it perceived or otherwise and it tends to further retrench people into the very shackles you’re trying to break. And those shackles of ‘free speech man, and anything outside of systemic and legal frameworks isn’t cool’ are already extremely tight.
Those people will go along with whatever is happening. They're just not engaged so who gives a fuck what they think. They're not going to do anything when the gestapo grab their brown neighbour and they're not going to do anything when a member of the gestapo goes missing one night. It doesn't actually take a high proportion of the population to do most things, it just takes a motivated subset. Take the Tea Party, they just needed to show up to primaries when most Republicans didn't, the majority of Republicans might have preferred the mainstream candidate but they're still going to vote R when the time comes.
bolded - sorry, but this is ignorance speaking, they would do something, they would run for their lives like no tomorrow because there wouldnt be one. See what happens when the member of gestapo goes missing, entire neighbourhood is loaded on a train (guess where), or people in area just get dragged out from their homes and get shoot on the street.
On May 28 2025 02:30 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 01:47 BlackJack wrote:On May 28 2025 00:14 WombaT wrote:On May 27 2025 22:53 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 22:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 27 2025 22:05 KwarK wrote:On May 27 2025 15:08 Liquid`Drone wrote:
In general, I think vandalism is very counter-productive - I think maybe you can make an exception for something like the MLK-assassination-riots, but the normal reaction I see is that people become less sympathetic and that the chance of a political win dwindles, although here you could also argue, I guess, that riots are also more likely to happen where the chance of a political win was small in the first place. Vandalizing in general, sure. Targeted vandalism in a way that directly hurts the wealth of a drug addict mentally unstable oligarch who is openly using that wealth to control the media to push pro-Nazi views and who is seizing control of parts of our government, that's smart, healthy, patriotic, and necessary. If people had started doing it a few years ago then the Tesla stock price drops and he can't buy Twitter on credit using Tesla stock as collateral. To what degree can you really attribute Tesla's drop in stock price to vandalism? The reason I'm asking is that in Europe, I haven't really heard of any tesla-targeting vandalism, but I believe sales have tanked harder over here; the people who like EV's and the people who like Trump or are nazis are two groups with very little overlap. Additionally I can totally picture some people being like 'god damnit crime is out of control we need stronger police presence' as a response to 'somebody fucking lit my car on fire'. I’m not talking about a current Tesla price drop or current vandalism. I’m talking about the impact of a hypothetical sustained popular campaign far larger than that. Doesn’t even have to be vandalism, people can engage at their own level of radicalization. You see a Tesla charging in public, you unplug it. You park so closely behind them they can’t get out. Whatever. The public have always been able to use negative social pressure to reinforce why not to act in certain ways. They’re already doing the stronger police presence and they’re already grabbing people off the street. I’ve always thought of you as a reasonable rational man but we do not live in reasonable rational times. If the world was filled with people like you then it wouldn’t be necessary but it isn’t. Politically motivated violence has always been necessary to deal with bad actors who don’t understand that the social contract comes with obligations in addition to protections. In an ideal world the factory owner recognizes that he and the workers have a common interest in the enterprise and that maximizing his wealth by minimizing theirs is irrational. That you should find a way to make them choose to work in your factory rather than paying them in scrip and putting them so in debt that they can’t afford to quit. But in a world where a factory owner is acting irrationally and antisocially it has always been necessary for someone to remind the factory owner that there are a lot of workers who love their families and would do anything to protect their families from someone harming them and that the workers know where he lives. That it would be a terrible shame if something were to happen to his mansion. It’s the same as my theory about judges openly taking bribes. In theory we should all respect the rule of law and accept the results of verdicts we disagree with because the system depends on people being willing to say “I don’t like the outcome but I believe in the system”. But when the judges themselves openly shit on the system then the contract is broken, there is no obligation to follow it. No rational judge would break it because they derive their position from the system but we do not live in rational times. The main reason to not run a company that takes money from sick people for medicine and then doesn’t give people medicine is that it’s wrong. Even if not giving sick people medicine would maximize shareholder value. Everyone should know that, nobody should do it. But in an irrational world there’s a second reason not to run a company like that and it’s that you might get shot. Or consider taxes. The rich are literally no longer required to pay them. The poor get taxes taken out of their paycheck and the payroll system reports their earnings directly to the IRS. The rich have always been on the trust system because the IRS needs them to self report. IRS revenue agents don’t punish anyone, they don’t make up new tax laws to steal from the rich, they just find rich people who are shifting their tax burden of millions to the poor and make them stop. People who are breaking the law. During the IRS layoffs I read a lot of stories from other accountants of what they were working on on the day they were told not to go to work anymore. The richest Americans simply not paying what they were owed in the hope that they wouldn’t get caught. They were caught and then Trump decided to just let them all off. No enforcement agents, no enforcement. In that scenario why should anyone pay taxes? Rationally we should all pay what we owe but the contract has been broken. I don’t disagree with that Kwark, specifically as per Tesla vandalism I’m just not convinced it’s either particularly effective versus alternatives, nor actually targeting those with particular culpability or power. … I think my main bone of contention is that social pressure absolutely works (just look at school), but it’s a matter of suitable targets. I’d feel slightly differently if Joe and Jane Tesla buyers were, by and large enthusiastic supporters of his current politics. Sounds like you yourself have a little movement on the acceptability of torching people’s cars because they are a nazi they own a Tesla. My position hasn’t really moved, I suppose I haven’t exhaustively laid it out or codified it. if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public, especially as part of some wider gathering. Or a jihadist or whatever. Basically if you’re out advocating death to x group, in public. And that’s plan B, ideally you have a bunch of folk (or indeed law enforcement) show up and get you to fuck off. Then it’s something of a graduating scale for me down from there. The less hateful, or public you go, deplatforming or simply being thought of as an arsehole, or boycotts or other forms of protest. If Joe Nazi or Jane Jihadi aren’t going to rallies, or able to post their invective on mainstream, visible platforms I’m not that bothered about punching them. The idea isn’t necessarily to eliminate the poison, just contain it. I’ve never been in favour of torching Teslas, I think it’s especially stupid because the average Tesla owner is highly likely not to hold the political views you’re trying to punish. I just don’t give that much of a shit in the wider scheme of things. Yeah it sucks, insurance is a thing. If perpetrators get caught they’ll face criminal censure. Meanwhile the state is deporting ‘gang members’ and revoking green cards for the ‘crime’ of completely legitimate protest. I’m not a great believer in the idea one can’t care about multiple things at once, but if one was to pick a priority concern I know which I’d pick.
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade.
|
United States42370 Posts
On May 28 2025 11:25 Razyda wrote:
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade.
What the fuck are you talking about with your left wing swastikas?
|
Northern Ireland24660 Posts
On May 28 2025 10:18 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 09:49 WombaT wrote:On May 28 2025 09:03 Introvert wrote:On May 28 2025 09:00 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 08:58 Introvert wrote:
The Elon salute, when I first saw it, looked to me like the kind of gesture pop stars do at concerts to thank fans, I admit that's what I saw
...
my reality is the one where I don't have to deny my lying eyes wow See my edit. I'm still unsure, but when people I think have their head on straight say it looked bad I can at least re-evaluate and think maybe it's less clear. But I don't start with the proposition that Elon or the man he endorsed is a Nazi, so I would take more convincing. Elon does try to push boundaries tho sometimes. You, however, see everything as fascism. edit: I agree with GH (for once) from the feedback thread. I think KwarK is simply broken. Have we tried restarting him? I said in my post that doing a Nazi salute doesn’t necessarily mean you’re a Nazi. Hell otherwise actors in WW2 films are a bunch of cunts. There is territory there for discussion. One can be a provocateur, or just a bit of a cunt and do such a thing, without necessarily being a subscriber to Nazi Digest. Sure. That Musk did not do such a salute (more than once incidentally), I don’t think is remotely, remotely plausible whatsoever. My brain starts to break when I try to put myself into the headspace of someone who can watch that footage and somehow deny that that is the case. It is genuinely incomprehensible to me. I’m capable and tbh make too much of a hobby of trying to put myself into the headspace of some of the most reprehensible people on the planet, and there’s almost always some crumb there that makes some kind of sense. Hell, actual Nazis make more sense to me than ‘that’s not a Nazi salute’. I will assume it doesn’t need stating for anyone based on my post history, but ‘makes sense’ is in no way any kind of endorsement or excuse-making. Shall respond properly to your longer post when doggo isn’t in the throes of consistently vomiting I admit I'm not an expert on the exact hand and finger placements required for the various salutes, but I also don' t trust people who say that things are facism when they clearly aren't, and so I don't simply believe them about other things. If you think, for example, that deporting people without a legal right to be here is facism, then I am going to doubt your claim about what Elon did. That doesn't mean, contra Kwak, that I believe the opposite, but it means I don't take that person's word for it. This is not a difficult position to understand when stated as such but for Orange Man Bad types it's basically impossible. Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 10:01 KwarK wrote:
Fortunately he can just accept the reality his eyes tell him and so when he literally sees someone celebrating their political victory in front of a crowd of right wing supporters raises their right arm and extends it stiffly at a 45 degree angle with their fingers extended then it's probably a k-pop thing.
The reason he knows it can't be a Nazi thing is because everyone was already saying the guy was promoting a whole lot of Nazi shit and when the guy that everyone is calling a Nazi does a Nazi gesture then you know for sure that he's not a Nazi because why would a guy who says Nazi shit do a Nazi gesture. See above. I didn't say "I know it's not a Nazi thing because everyone was already saying it was." I said it didn't look like one to me at first glance. And since I don't think he's a Nazi, and still don't, I was inclined to believe it either A) wasn't or B) Elon thinks he's being provocative giving the middle finger to people who call him a Nazi. I haven't exactly gone to bat for Elon in this thread, think he does a lot of stupid stuff, and I wasn't a fan of Tesla before it was cool. But I wouldn't trust KwarK with that judgement for anything because he thinks things are so bad that violence is justified. Clear detachment from reality so extreme that it calls into question the interpretive and moral framework you are using. Or put another way I simply don't trust you or people who say what you do either way. Could be right, could be wrong, but more importantly it might just be meaningless noise and rage.
You don’t have to take my claim for it, it’s a matter of watching it.
If one is unsure as to the specific mechanics of what constitutes a sieg heil, and perhaps doesn’t want to unduly throw someone under the bus for something different, but similar looking, one can check what one of those looks like.
As I’ve already stated, and indeed at the time, I’m in camp B) although I think the man has extremely questionable views, and is certainly an enabler of those with similar views.
Kwark and indeed myself may think violence is justifiable, but it’s not due to a detachment from reality of this kind. It’s a value judgement. Similarly I don’t agree with abortion restrictions, but I wouldn’t consider advocates as detached from reality.
Not a religious guy, but hey, who knows? Not observable, but not disprovable. Not something I’ll shit on unless it’s justification for shitty behaviour.
I mean Musk’s K-Pop gesture was just the first thing that sprung to mind, it’s not a short list. Things that are very, very obviously apparent are just denied in some quarters. Trump is a strong and stable genius despite proudly showcasing he is not on the daily, etc.
I’m drawing that particular distinction because, of course not without precedent but this level of collective delusion is something rather new, and it’s increasingly just supplanting divergence along moral or political value systems.
It’s rather a problem
|
On May 28 2025 11:42 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 11:25 Razyda wrote:
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade. What the fuck are you talking about with your left wing swastikas?
You cant be serious??
https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/news/tesla-to-prosecute-vandals-as-protests-gain-momentum/3759675/
On May 27 2025 11:35 Zambrah wrote:
I only support acts of vandalism that dont target teslas owned by normal people who bought them before Elon was so outwardly nazi or who cant afford to get anything new because cars do be expensive, and if the president of VW came out yesterday and started seig heiling I wouldnt be able to just get a new car, I want to extend that grace to the working class. Life is hard and expensive out there and the working class doesnt need additional burdens caused by billionaire fuck faces.
I dont really give two shits what happens to a Tesla dealership or what have you.
Bolded - my men, you misspelled Übermenschen.
|
Northern Ireland24660 Posts
By that logic on the 12th of July in my native land, Unionists are big fans of Ireland and the Pope, I mean they must be if they’re proudly displaying flags and representations on their bonfires right?
|
United States42370 Posts
On May 28 2025 11:54 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 11:42 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 11:25 Razyda wrote:
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade. What the fuck are you talking about with your left wing swastikas? You cant be serious?? https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/news/tesla-to-prosecute-vandals-as-protests-gain-momentum/3759675/
Ah, this is the part where we insist that we can't tell the difference between antifascists branding fascist sympathizers with the symbol and the symbol being used in its original form. It's kind of like in that movie where Brad Pitt loves nazis so much that he gives the guy a Nazi tattoo with his knife. But no, it's still a right wing swastika, they're branding the guy as being right wing.
|
Northern Ireland24660 Posts
On May 28 2025 12:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 11:54 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 11:42 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 11:25 Razyda wrote:
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade. What the fuck are you talking about with your left wing swastikas? You cant be serious?? https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/news/tesla-to-prosecute-vandals-as-protests-gain-momentum/3759675/ Ah, this is the part where we insist that we can't tell the difference between antifascists branding fascist sympathizers with the symbol and the symbol being used in its original form. It's kind of like in that movie where Brad Pitt loves nazis so much that he gives the guy a Nazi tattoo with his knife. But no, it's still a right wing swastika, they're branding the guy as being right wing.
Wasn’t that a K-Pop band logo? I dunno, been a while since I watched that film.
|
On May 28 2025 11:58 WombaT wrote:
By that logic on the 12th of July in my native land, Unionists are big fans of Ireland and the Pope, I mean they must be if they’re proudly displaying flags and representations on their bonfires right?
Amusingly it always makes me laugh that British people celebrate the man who tried to blow up parliament. Whats even more funny, is that whenever I bring it up with my British friends, they laugh, then have this short pause, you know, and generally say something along the lines: "maybe if he succeed we wouldnt be where we are now". This reaction is almost universal. It is across all levels of jobs, from warehouse workers to board meetings.
|
United States42370 Posts
On May 28 2025 12:15 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 11:58 WombaT wrote:
By that logic on the 12th of July in my native land, Unionists are big fans of Ireland and the Pope, I mean they must be if they’re proudly displaying flags and representations on their bonfires right?
Amusingly it always makes me laugh that British people celebrate the man who tried to blow up parliament. Whats even more funny, is that whenever I bring it up with my British friends, they laugh, then have this short pause, you know, and generally say something along the lines: "maybe if he succeed we wouldnt be where we are now". This reaction is almost universal. It is across all levels of jobs, from warehouse workers to board meetings.
wow
|
United States42370 Posts
okay so what do you think happens to the effigy of guy fawkes on bonfire night? like the night goes:
1. Build a giant bonfire but don't light it yet
2. Build a Guy out of old clothes stuffed with straw
3. ???
When you're imagining the British day dedicated to celebrating Guy Fawkes what is it that you imagine happens next?
|
On May 28 2025 12:04 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2025 11:54 Razyda wrote:On May 28 2025 11:42 KwarK wrote:On May 28 2025 11:25 Razyda wrote:
"if you’re an actual Nazi you’re fair game for a punching if you’re doing that in public" - well, well, well, wouldnt you say that drawing swastikas and committing acts of violence is something you can rather reliably identify nazis by?
I must say that i find it intricately amusing that left draw more swastikas in few months than right in decade. What the fuck are you talking about with your left wing swastikas? You cant be serious?? https://www.financialexpress.com/auto/news/tesla-to-prosecute-vandals-as-protests-gain-momentum/3759675/ Ah, this is the part where we insist that we can't tell the difference between antifascists branding fascist sympathizers with the symbol and the symbol being used in its original form. It's kind of like in that movie where Brad Pitt loves nazis so much that he gives the guy a Nazi tattoo with his knife. But no, it's still a right wing swastika, they're branding the guy as being right wing.
Oh yeah, so what you saying is that left draws swastikas and commits acts of violence for good reasons. Can you please find me a nazi who says that they were drawing swastikas and committing violence for bad reasons?
I am not gonna contest you point though, that Democrats buying Teslas are fascists sympathizers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
