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On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power
What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now.
Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists.
They'll be the one's explaining "actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!"
Then "Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent"
Then "Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them"
and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more.
Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH.
This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...".
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On November 08 2024 06:41 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power Not only that, but their cry of being the party of Democracy rings really hollow when they have behaved VERY undemocratically in two of the last 3 elections. Probably would have been 3/3 of the last 3 elections if the Pandemic hadn't cut the primary short in 2020. Pushing Kamala Harris through as the Presidential Nominee after Biden dropped out without so much as a public debate. You really expect people to take you seriously that Trump is the danger to Democracy? It caused everyone to just default to "both parties are the same." When "both parties are the same" is rampant in the electorate, Democrat turnout craters. So far the numbers look like 15 million fewer Liberals came out to vote this year. Harris lost and power is peacefully being transferred to Trump. That is an argument in favor of democracy working as intended. You're not making a lick of sense.
Of course there won't be any fight to legally challenge the outcome of this election. The Democrats got their asses beat too badly for them to even BEGIN to make a case that the election was fraudulent.
The point I'm making is that the electorate at large doesn't see them as the party of Democracy any more than they see the Republicans. They see them as the corrupt establishment, no different than the Republicans are.
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On November 08 2024 06:51 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 08 2024 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power Not only that, but their cry of being the party of Democracy rings really hollow when they have behaved VERY undemocratically in two of the last 3 elections. Probably would have been 3/3 of the last 3 elections if the Pandemic hadn't cut the primary short in 2020. Pushing Kamala Harris through as the Presidential Nominee after Biden dropped out without so much as a public debate. You really expect people to take you seriously that Trump is the danger to Democracy? It caused everyone to just default to "both parties are the same." When "both parties are the same" is rampant in the electorate, Democrat turnout craters. So far the numbers look like 15 million fewer Liberals came out to vote this year. Harris lost and power is peacefully being transferred to Trump. That is an argument in favor of democracy working as intended. You're not making a lick of sense. Of course there won't be any fight to legally challenge the outcome of this election. The Democrats got their asses beat too badly for them to even BEGIN to make a case that the election was fraudulent. The point I'm making is that the electorate at large doesn't see them as the party of Democracy any more than they see the Republicans. They see them as the corrupt establishment, no different than the Republicans are.
You link low Democrat turnout to people believing that Democrats aren't pro-democracy. That's a very big claim and I need to see strong evidence for it. Never heard anyone argue that before.
If people believe both parties are the same, then both parties should've lost votes. But that's not what happened. Only Harris lost votes. More specifically she lost men. Lots of men. White men, black men, old men, young men. Her campaign lost them.
There was no both-sides-ism. This election couldn't have been much more polarizing if they had tried. Almost everything between Trump and Harris was opposite.
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On November 08 2024 06:51 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 08 2024 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power Not only that, but their cry of being the party of Democracy rings really hollow when they have behaved VERY undemocratically in two of the last 3 elections. Probably would have been 3/3 of the last 3 elections if the Pandemic hadn't cut the primary short in 2020. Pushing Kamala Harris through as the Presidential Nominee after Biden dropped out without so much as a public debate. You really expect people to take you seriously that Trump is the danger to Democracy? It caused everyone to just default to "both parties are the same." When "both parties are the same" is rampant in the electorate, Democrat turnout craters. So far the numbers look like 15 million fewer Liberals came out to vote this year. Harris lost and power is peacefully being transferred to Trump. That is an argument in favor of democracy working as intended. You're not making a lick of sense. Of course there won't be any fight to legally challenge the outcome of this election. The Democrats got their asses beat too badly for them to even BEGIN to make a case that the election was fraudulent.The point I'm making is that the electorate at large doesn't see them as the party of Democracy any more than they see the Republicans. They see them as the corrupt establishment, no different than the Republicans are.
That didn't stop the Republicans from filing dozens of ridiculous lawsuits that got smacked down again and again, and then rioting in January. The only time there wasn't a peaceful transfer of power and/or bullshit accusations of widespread voter fraud and/or the losing candidate refusing to admit they lost... was in 2020 with Trump.
The Democrats got beat in 2024. Badly. But how they and their candidate reacted is nowhere near as unprofessional, immoral, or illegal as how Republicans and Trump reacted when they lost in 2020.
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On November 08 2024 07:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 06:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 08 2024 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power Not only that, but their cry of being the party of Democracy rings really hollow when they have behaved VERY undemocratically in two of the last 3 elections. Probably would have been 3/3 of the last 3 elections if the Pandemic hadn't cut the primary short in 2020. Pushing Kamala Harris through as the Presidential Nominee after Biden dropped out without so much as a public debate. You really expect people to take you seriously that Trump is the danger to Democracy? It caused everyone to just default to "both parties are the same." When "both parties are the same" is rampant in the electorate, Democrat turnout craters. So far the numbers look like 15 million fewer Liberals came out to vote this year. Harris lost and power is peacefully being transferred to Trump. That is an argument in favor of democracy working as intended. You're not making a lick of sense. Of course there won't be any fight to legally challenge the outcome of this election. The Democrats got their asses beat too badly for them to even BEGIN to make a case that the election was fraudulent.The point I'm making is that the electorate at large doesn't see them as the party of Democracy any more than they see the Republicans. They see them as the corrupt establishment, no different than the Republicans are. That didn't stop the Republicans from filing dozens of ridiculous lawsuits that got smacked down again and again, and then rioting in January. The only time there wasn't a peaceful transfer of power and/or bullshit accusations of widespread voter fraud and/or the losing candidate refusing to admit they lost... was in 2020 with Trump. The Democrats got beat in 2024. Badly. But how they and their candidate reacted is nowhere near as unprofessional, immoral, or illegal as how Republicans and Trump reacted when they lost in 2020.
Those people at Jan 6 were willing to destroy their lives for Trump. If Harris were to call for an insurection people would be "ehh, I've got work in the morning". Can't really pat themselves on the back for not taking an option that wasn't on the table.
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Canada11607 Posts
What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now.
Well, while you are building up your narrative of what is going on TL, make sure to not include my posts as part of the pattern of Lib/Dems as I am neither a liberal nor a democrat, nor am I walking back from my position on Trump as I do not believe I ever called Trump a fascist or Hitlerian or anything like it, but you can fact check me on that if you want. I do still think he is demonstrably too corrupt and too unconcerned about the separation of powers in federalism/ the branches of government to ever vote for.
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On November 08 2024 07:19 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Well, while you are building up your narrative of what is going on TL, make sure to not include my posts as part of the pattern of Lib/Dems as I am neither a liberal nor a democrat, nor am I walking back from my position on Trump as I do not believe I ever called Trump a fascist or Hitlerian or anything like it, but you can fact check me on that if you want. I do still think he is demonstrably too corrupt and too unconcerned about the separation of powers in federalism/ the branches of government to ever vote for.
I had you in my head as a never Trumper Republican type that was skeptical of calling anyone fascist, so you're safe on that.
I do think it's silly to find Trump an unacceptable person to vote for but a reasonably acceptable person to give control of the most lethal military in the world after he said he would be a day 1 dictator.
It may avoid charges of hypocrisy, but strikes me as pretty irresponsible
EDIT: Especially after the Supreme Court already gave him immunity to do practically anything he wants legally
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On November 08 2024 05:59 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
There's also the fact that Trump is 78 and getting tired. He's probably going to spend half of his time on the golf course or with some other leisure activity judging from last time he was president. He also really doesn't have any convictions except being right, getting rich and avoiding going to jail. Not exactly Hitler at 43 who had already gone to jail for his beliefs.
He has a lot of grudges and will probably do some questionable shit in that regard but do we really see him as dictator material at 82 when his term is over? Making a lot of money and giving himself a full pardon? Absolutely. Staying on for life? Ehh...
While Trump's playing golf, I'm sure guys like this Attorney General hopeful will be super chill...
Trump AG hopeful says he wants to drag Democrats’ ‘political dead bodies through the streets and burn them’
Did people just forget the whole "Project 2025" part of the campaign cycle? The threat wasn't just Trump being a fascist, it was also that he was going to empower a bunch of fascists and they had a real plan they just need him to thoughtlessly sign off on occasionally.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 08 2024 08:14 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 05:59 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
There's also the fact that Trump is 78 and getting tired. He's probably going to spend half of his time on the golf course or with some other leisure activity judging from last time he was president. He also really doesn't have any convictions except being right, getting rich and avoiding going to jail. Not exactly Hitler at 43 who had already gone to jail for his beliefs.
He has a lot of grudges and will probably do some questionable shit in that regard but do we really see him as dictator material at 82 when his term is over? Making a lot of money and giving himself a full pardon? Absolutely. Staying on for life? Ehh... While Trump's playing golf, I'm sure guys like this Attorney General hopeful will be super chill... Trump AG hopeful says he wants to drag Democrats’ ‘political dead bodies through the streets and burn them’Did people just forget the whole "Project 2025" part of the campaign cycle? The threat wasn't just Trump being a fascist, it was also that he was going to empower a bunch of fascists and they had a real plan they just need him to thoughtlessly sign off on occasionally.
No, that’s a big threat and why you have to vote to stop it, but not a big one threat if you’ve voted and lost.
You see, you have to vote and stop Projext 2025. But if you do vote and we lose, it’ll be fine.
It’s pretty simple really
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On November 08 2024 07:13 Dan HH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 07:04 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 08 2024 06:51 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 06:41 Magic Powers wrote:On November 08 2024 06:35 Vindicare605 wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power Not only that, but their cry of being the party of Democracy rings really hollow when they have behaved VERY undemocratically in two of the last 3 elections. Probably would have been 3/3 of the last 3 elections if the Pandemic hadn't cut the primary short in 2020. Pushing Kamala Harris through as the Presidential Nominee after Biden dropped out without so much as a public debate. You really expect people to take you seriously that Trump is the danger to Democracy? It caused everyone to just default to "both parties are the same." When "both parties are the same" is rampant in the electorate, Democrat turnout craters. So far the numbers look like 15 million fewer Liberals came out to vote this year. Harris lost and power is peacefully being transferred to Trump. That is an argument in favor of democracy working as intended. You're not making a lick of sense. Of course there won't be any fight to legally challenge the outcome of this election. The Democrats got their asses beat too badly for them to even BEGIN to make a case that the election was fraudulent.The point I'm making is that the electorate at large doesn't see them as the party of Democracy any more than they see the Republicans. They see them as the corrupt establishment, no different than the Republicans are. That didn't stop the Republicans from filing dozens of ridiculous lawsuits that got smacked down again and again, and then rioting in January. The only time there wasn't a peaceful transfer of power and/or bullshit accusations of widespread voter fraud and/or the losing candidate refusing to admit they lost... was in 2020 with Trump. The Democrats got beat in 2024. Badly. But how they and their candidate reacted is nowhere near as unprofessional, immoral, or illegal as how Republicans and Trump reacted when they lost in 2020. Those people at Jan 6 were willing to destroy their lives for Trump. If Harris were to call for an insurection people would be "ehh, I've got work in the morning". Can't really pat themselves on the back for not taking an option that wasn't on the table.
That's a bad thing for Republicans and a good thing for Democrats. And the relevant part was that the two sides didn't act the same way.
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United States44449 Posts
On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...".
I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives.
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On November 08 2024 08:29 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 08:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:59 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
There's also the fact that Trump is 78 and getting tired. He's probably going to spend half of his time on the golf course or with some other leisure activity judging from last time he was president. He also really doesn't have any convictions except being right, getting rich and avoiding going to jail. Not exactly Hitler at 43 who had already gone to jail for his beliefs.
He has a lot of grudges and will probably do some questionable shit in that regard but do we really see him as dictator material at 82 when his term is over? Making a lot of money and giving himself a full pardon? Absolutely. Staying on for life? Ehh... While Trump's playing golf, I'm sure guys like this Attorney General hopeful will be super chill... Trump AG hopeful says he wants to drag Democrats’ ‘political dead bodies through the streets and burn them’Did people just forget the whole "Project 2025" part of the campaign cycle? The threat wasn't just Trump being a fascist, it was also that he was going to empower a bunch of fascists and they had a real plan they just need him to thoughtlessly sign off on occasionally. No, that’s a big threat and why you have to vote to stop it, but not a big one threat if you’ve voted and lost. You see, you have to vote and stop Projext 2025. But if you do vote and we lose, it’ll be fine. It’s pretty simple really
It is simple actually!
Democrats believe the president should be whoever won the election. Donald Trump believe the president should be Donald Trump, regardless of who won the election. Donald Trump won the election, so in this scenario, they don’t actually disagree about who should be president, just the reason why.
Separately, Democrats believe you shouldn’t vote for a politician who doesn’t think they should have to give up power when they lose an election, and that giving that person power might have really bad consequences. Republicans, apparently, don’t share that view. If Democrats are right, we may be in for some really bad consequences.
Finally, there’s a question mark on whether Democrats think the really bad consequences are bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election). There’s a lot of variables on that question, including how bad the really bad consequences are, how bad it would be to abandon the first principle, and how likely they would be to succeed at whatever abandoning the first principle would allow them to do.
You guys are skipping past evaluating those variables and assuming the answer is yes, they are bad enough to be worth abandoning that first principle. Then you are confused why everyone else hasn’t arrived at the same conclusion as you, and wondering if it means the Democrats were lying about either of the other things they claimed to believe. But the stems from the fact that the answer is not necessarily yes, and elected Democrats in fact seem to think the answer is no.
Are we getting anywhere? This seems like an unnecessarily obtuse conversation.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 08 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...". I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives.
Yeah it’s like those true crime dramas where the serial murderer hit their deviant ways from everyone around them, but in reverse.
‘What are ya talking about honey I told you what I was into on our first date!’
He’s absolutely full of shit in basically every domain, but in terms of who he is and what he stands for, he’s a model honest politician.
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On November 08 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...". I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives.
You'll notice in that post I don't anticipate you defending or apologizing for anything Trump does either.
What I'm describing is a bipartisan mass deportation aka ethnic cleansing effort that would be rationalized by you and other lib/Dems, much like you all just did with your/Harris/Biden's support of the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians.
To ChristianS point, when GENOCIDE doesn't pass for "consequences bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election)." it begs the question of what is?
So far you guys have given me nothing, so I have to believe Trump and Democrats enslaving 10,000,000 immigrants wouldn't be it either.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 08 2024 09:21 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 08:29 WombaT wrote:On November 08 2024 08:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:59 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote:
There's also the fact that Trump is 78 and getting tired. He's probably going to spend half of his time on the golf course or with some other leisure activity judging from last time he was president. He also really doesn't have any convictions except being right, getting rich and avoiding going to jail. Not exactly Hitler at 43 who had already gone to jail for his beliefs.
He has a lot of grudges and will probably do some questionable shit in that regard but do we really see him as dictator material at 82 when his term is over? Making a lot of money and giving himself a full pardon? Absolutely. Staying on for life? Ehh... While Trump's playing golf, I'm sure guys like this Attorney General hopeful will be super chill... Trump AG hopeful says he wants to drag Democrats’ ‘political dead bodies through the streets and burn them’Did people just forget the whole "Project 2025" part of the campaign cycle? The threat wasn't just Trump being a fascist, it was also that he was going to empower a bunch of fascists and they had a real plan they just need him to thoughtlessly sign off on occasionally. No, that’s a big threat and why you have to vote to stop it, but not a big one threat if you’ve voted and lost. You see, you have to vote and stop Projext 2025. But if you do vote and we lose, it’ll be fine. It’s pretty simple really It is simple actually! Democrats believe the president should be whoever won the election. Donald Trump believe the president should be Donald Trump, regardless of who won the election. Donald Trump won the election, so in this scenario, they don’t actually disagree about who should be president, just the reason why. Separately, Democrats believe you shouldn’t vote for a politician who doesn’t think they should have to give up power when they lose an election, and that giving that person power might have really bad consequences. Republicans, apparently, don’t share that view. If Democrats are right, we may be in for some really bad consequences. Finally, there’s a question mark on whether Democrats think the really bad consequences are bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election). There’s a lot of variables on that question, including how bad the really bad consequences are, how bad it would be to abandon the first principle, and how likely they would be to succeed at whatever abandoning the first principle would allow them to do. You guys are skipping past evaluating those variables and assuming the answer is yes, they are bad enough to be worth abandoning that first principle. Then you are confused why everyone else hasn’t arrived at the same conclusion as you, and wondering if it means the Democrats were lying about either of the other things they claimed to believe. But the stems from the fact that the answer is not necessarily yes, and elected Democrats in fact seem to think the answer is no. Are we getting anywhere? This seems like an unnecessarily obtuse conversation.
Consider it somewhat facetious venting on my part rather than a particularly considered point, although your response was fair and well-argued nonetheless. Appreciated.
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@Greenhorizons What specifically are you asking the democrats to do? And what specifically are you wanting the people on the thread to do?
As of now it seems pretty open ended and could be join some grass roots socialist groups who are helping the poor, to join a militia ready to over throw the democratically elected government.
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On November 08 2024 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...". I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives. You'll notice in that post I don't anticipate you defending or apologizing for anything Trump does either. What I'm describing is a bipartisan mass deportation aka ethnic cleansing effort that would be rationalized by you and other lib/Dems, much like you all just did with your/Harris/Biden's support of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. To ChristianS point when GENOCIDE doesn't pass for "consequences bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election)." it begs the question of what is? So far you guys have given me nothing, so I have to believe Trump and Democrats enslaving 10,000,000 immigrants wouldn't be it either.
If the question is “what would the circumstances be under which I would take up arms against my government?” I hope you’ll appreciate that I don’t take the question lightly and don’t necessarily have a comprehensive answer for you right this moment, but I’m certainly pondering what exactly the answer might be. I’m not sure if that’s the question you’re asking, though.
Edit @Wombat: understandable moment to need to vent a little, and FWIW you’re one of my favorite posters on this forum!
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On November 08 2024 10:11 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...". I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives. You'll notice in that post I don't anticipate you defending or apologizing for anything Trump does either. What I'm describing is a bipartisan mass deportation aka ethnic cleansing effort that would be rationalized by you and other lib/Dems, much like you all just did with your/Harris/Biden's support of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. To ChristianS point when GENOCIDE doesn't pass for "consequences bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election)." it begs the question of what is? So far you guys have given me nothing, so I have to believe Trump and Democrats enslaving 10,000,000 immigrants wouldn't be it either. If the question is “what would the circumstances be under which I would take up arms against my government?” I hope you’ll appreciate that I don’t take the question lightly and don’t necessarily have a comprehensive answer for you right this moment, but I’m certainly pondering what exactly the answer might be. I’m not sure if that’s the question you’re asking, though. "Take up arms" is a bit dramatic, I'm at "what would the circumstances be under which I would join a revolutionary socialist organization" (or "I would read like 50% of a book by a socialist", edit: or just "I would stop voting for Democrats") and have been for YEARS waiting on you guys to have an answer to where you draw the line if not genocide for just that much.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On November 08 2024 10:11 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 10:02 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 08:52 KwarK wrote:On November 08 2024 06:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 08 2024 05:33 WombaT wrote:
If the Democrats framed Trump as a shitbag who’d shortly fuck off, let’s figure out some messaging to counter him, that’s one thing. Kinda my position
But they want to simultaneously frame him as a Fascist threat to democracy, while also doing nothing to block his ascent to power What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Then insist no matter how authoritarian Trump gets, that he's not actually a fascist dictator, because then electoralism wouldn't be worth shit and they are lesser evil absolutists. They'll be the one's explaining " actually this bipartisan mass deportation bill is a win because we got some more weapons for Israel and Ukraine!" Then " Oh, turns out there's no where that will take the ~10,000,000+ people we Democrats and Republicans rounded up, guess we'll have to make these camps a bit more permanent" Then " Oh you know who could do the work? These people illegals we rounded up! It's okay if they don't want to, we can legally force them" and so on....That's just one of the lib/Dem to fascism examples but there's more. Before anyone tells me "oh Democrats wouldn't let Trump enslave undocumented immigrants, put them in work camps, and violently punish those that refuse". Genocidal Democrats are already building the cop cities across the country that could fill/staff the prison camps while actively voting against ending slavery in California in 2024 (Harris NEVER mentioning this being on her ballot is actually unbelievable to me). FOH. This is all happening right in front of our faces and libs/Dems are just like "man this hot tub is nice, smells a bit like spices though...". I don't anticipate defending or apologizing for anything Trump does, though it's possible he might be tricked into something good. I'm still pissed at him for shit from 2016. Though one thing I will say for him is that he's never hidden what he is. Even back then he was openly stating that he'll accept the results of the election if he wins and refuse to accept them if he loses. The scorpion never claimed he was anything other than a scorpion. I have more venom and contempt for those who decided that they didn't have enough scorpions in their lives. You'll notice in that post I don't anticipate you defending or apologizing for anything Trump does either. What I'm describing is a bipartisan mass deportation aka ethnic cleansing effort that would be rationalized by you and other lib/Dems, much like you all just did with your/Harris/Biden's support of ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. To ChristianS point when GENOCIDE doesn't pass for "consequences bad enough it’s worth abandoning that first principle (the one about the president being whoever won the election)." it begs the question of what is? So far you guys have given me nothing, so I have to believe Trump and Democrats enslaving 10,000,000 immigrants wouldn't be it either. If the question is “what would the circumstances be under which I would take up arms against my government?” I hope you’ll appreciate that I don’t take the question lightly and don’t necessarily have a comprehensive answer for you right this moment, but I’m certainly pondering what exactly the answer might be. I’m not sure if that’s the question you’re asking, though. Edit @Wombat: understandable moment to need to vent a little, and FWIW you’re one of my favorite posters on this forum!
Why thank you sir, right back at you.
For me, that threshold would be pretty bloody high. Other mechanisms need to fail first.
There were thin margins, but ultimately those mechanisms did work on Jan 6th, I think the failure has to be in subsequent punishment.
And, if we came to a scenario where they didn’t and I had some hypothetical grass roots movement, it’s general strike over armed rebellion every time.
Especially in a modern economy that would hit like a truck if you could pull it off for even a few weeks, and involves no violence.
Trump for me is demonstrably capable of profoundly anti-democratic stuff. I think he should be in prison quite frankly, but he is not.
On the flipside he did just straight up win an election comfortably. At least for this cycle he hasn’t really transgressed egregiously.
Until he does something of that ilk, I can’t feel I can stick him anywhere else but in my ‘Hm, they’re shit but they were fairly elected’ category. To reiterate I’m talking this cycle, I think past indiscretions should have been punished.
There are also ways to protest individual policy in very meaningful and direct ways without going full deposing the US President.
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Canada11607 Posts
On November 08 2024 08:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2024 07:19 Falling wrote:What is terrifying to me is that libs/Dems are just going to retcon the "Trump is a fascist that will destroy democracy" thing, as we see happening now. Well, while you are building up your narrative of what is going on TL, make sure to not include my posts as part of the pattern of Lib/Dems as I am neither a liberal nor a democrat, nor am I walking back from my position on Trump as I do not believe I ever called Trump a fascist or Hitlerian or anything like it, but you can fact check me on that if you want. I do still think he is demonstrably too corrupt and too unconcerned about the separation of powers in federalism/ the branches of government to ever vote for. I do think it's silly to find Trump an unacceptable person to vote for but a reasonably acceptable person to give control of the most lethal military in the world after he said he would be a day 1 dictator. It may avoid charges of hypocrisy, but strikes me as pretty irresponsible EDIT: Especially after the Supreme Court already gave him immunity to do practically anything he wants legally
The dictator on day one rhetoric is yet another reason why I am a never-Trumper (from afar as I can't vote, for obvious reasons.) It's disqualifying even if it was just a metaphor or however it might sanewashed by Trump loyalists. I don't see any way to be consistent and call oneself a believer in limited government who is conserving the constitution, not as a principled conservative, not even as a pragmatic one.
However, until and unless he becomes a dictator on day one, I think it is premature to treat him as a dictator though the electorate did indeed give him control to the most lethal military in the world. But it was not me who is giving him anything. I think it is premature because generally speaking I think the most effective way to remove a dictator is to shoot or otherwise kill them though I guess you could forcibly remove him instead. I'm not prepared to do any of that Minority Report style. Are you?
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