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It’s quite hard to take them seriously by virtue of them being libertarians
The LP in the US is not libertarian anymore. It is taken over by the Mises Caucus and contrary to their name they do not align with the views of Mises. They're a more extreme version of the Republicans.
I still remember watching the debate like 7 years ago where Gary Johnson, asked something to the effect of whether there should be any drug laws, said 'well, I don't think people should be allowed to sell heroin to 5 year olds', to which the audience responded with massive booing. Was pretty amazing.
This clip is legendary and makes rounds on the internet every few years:
It’s quite hard to take them seriously by virtue of them being libertarians
The LP in the US is not libertarian anymore. It is taken over by the Mises Caucus and contrary to their name they do not align with the views of Mises. They're a more extreme version of the Republicans.
Oh man I didn't know what the hell that was.... it's so stupid because if you wanna be charitable to the libertarians, I get the "socially liberal fiscally conservative" maybe makes sense if you only care about individuals and 0 intervention...... but it appears they just reinvented Republicanism? Absurd.
They just seem to have been a party that appeals to either: 1) Republicans who don't want to admit it, or 2) people who were specifically high on the Republican-sold fantasy that everyone is free and so is the market. The party ends up just becoming like a waiting room for Republicans who haven't figured out what they're doing yet.
Actually that tracks. I know often the people who like the label "centrist" and "libertarian" are conservatives who are trying to launder their image into something more palatable.
It’s quite hard to take them seriously by virtue of them being libertarians
The LP in the US is not libertarian anymore. It is taken over by the Mises Caucus and contrary to their name they do not align with the views of Mises. They're a more extreme version of the Republicans.
I still remember watching the debate like 7 years ago where Gary Johnson, asked something to the effect of whether there should be any drug laws, said 'well, I don't think people should be allowed to sell heroin to 5 year olds', to which the audience responded with massive booing. Was pretty amazing.
This clip is legendary and makes rounds on the internet every few years:
It’s quite hard to take them seriously by virtue of them being libertarians
The LP in the US is not libertarian anymore. It is taken over by the Mises Caucus and contrary to their name they do not align with the views of Mises. They're a more extreme version of the Republicans.
Oh man I didn't know what the hell that was.... it's so stupid because if you wanna be charitable to the libertarians, I get the "socially liberal fiscally conservative" maybe makes sense if you only care about individuals and 0 intervention...... but it appears they just reinvented Republicanism? Absurd.
They just seem to have been a party that appeals to either: 1) Republicans who don't want to admit it, or 2) people who were specifically high on the Republican-sold fantasy that everyone is free and so is the market. The party ends up just becoming like a waiting room for Republicans who haven't figured out what they're doing yet.
Actually that tracks. I know often the people who like the label "centrist" and "libertarian" are conservatives who are trying to launder their image into something more palatable.
Yeah its basically just being a coward. The classic thing you see is "Look, I'm no fan of Trump, but does anyone else think woke stuff is out of control, we need to deport all immigrants, leave NATO, and embrace a more masculine worldview that doesn't demonize men? I'm a centrist."
I remember being a little into libertarianism in high school, the thought that everyone is free to pursue their goals and interests and it all makes sense for X reasons was nice, but then you realize that it relies on human beings being rational actors and it all stops making any sort of sense.
Didn't help that the worst loud mouthed little ass hole in the AP Government class was the most wildly ardent libertarian I've ever seen. He was very close to getting punched in the mouth several times, mostly for hateful homophobic comments.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
On September 16 2023 07:58 Zambrah wrote: I remember being a little into libertarianism in high school, the thought that everyone is free to pursue their goals and interests and it all makes sense for X reasons was nice, but then you realize that it relies on human beings being rational actors and it all stops making any sort of sense.
Didn't help that the worst loud mouthed little ass hole in the AP Government class was the most wildly ardent libertarian I've ever seen. He was very close to getting punched in the mouth several times, mostly for hateful homophobic comments.
Elon recently learned a similar lesson about unbridled free speech when he bought twitter and changed course almost immediately lol
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
Shouldn't we extend the good faith in both directions and not call most people that identify as "centrist" cowardly closeted conservatives?
On September 16 2023 07:58 Zambrah wrote: I remember being a little into libertarianism in high school, the thought that everyone is free to pursue their goals and interests and it all makes sense for X reasons was nice, but then you realize that it relies on human beings being rational actors and it all stops making any sort of sense.
Didn't help that the worst loud mouthed little ass hole in the AP Government class was the most wildly ardent libertarian I've ever seen. He was very close to getting punched in the mouth several times, mostly for hateful homophobic comments.
Elon recently learned a similar lesson about unbridled free speech when he bought twitter and changed course almost immediately lol
Im not convinced Elon learns lessons, especially after foisting his weird life long love of dumb brand 'X' onto Twitter lol
Hes probably been pretty close to getting punched in the mouth several times though.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
Shouldn't we extend the good faith in both directions and not call most people that identify as "centrist" cowardly closeted conservatives?
The good faith was already extended and returned with bad faith. You don't ask someone to keep putting their hand on a stove to check in good faith if its hot.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
Shouldn't we extend the good faith in both directions and not call most people that identify as "centrist" cowardly closeted conservatives?
I think we're just misunderstanding each other. I was replying playfully to lestye. And just to preface, maybe we just have different experiences.
For me, as someone living in Oregon, I think many people I know have run into someone who is something like this:
And since it seems common for us to misunderstand each other, I am saying it is common to encounter someone who has ALL of the following attributes, and it is ONLY people who fit ALL of these attributes that I am teasing:
1) They insist they are not a republican and they are instead "centrist", "libertarian", or some kinda "no labels" thing.
2) They are anti-abortion
3) They are against gay marriage
4) They don't like the idea of wealth redistribution helping poor people
5) They commonly rant about left-leaning folks and literally never have a single bad thing to say about anything mildly conservative
6) They plan to vote for the republican candidate for governor of Oregon or presidential election or whatever at the time
I am saying it is common to find someone in Oregon who has all 6 attributes listed above. And it is very silly. And I am poking fun at people who fit ALL 6 attributes. Sorry for my lazy wording in my first post.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
I wouldn't say MAGA, but certainly Republican/conservative. I mean, a big part of both centrism and conservatism is we need to preserve the status quo. That ideology tends to dismiss any critique or challenge to the status quo as radical, turning a blind eye to the ails of society.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
I wouldn't say MAGA, but certainly Republican/conservative. I mean, a big part of both centrism and conservatism is we need to preserve the status quo. That ideology tends to dismiss any critique or challenge to the status quo as radical, turning a blind eye to the ails of society.
I think it is funny that in more left leaning countries, "status quo" is more socialist, but conservatives do not turn radical; they just pull slightly to the right. This opens the door for more radical right wing parties.
These radical parties all come out of the woodworks when 'bad stuff happens' and play the populist card, with social media campaigning and all. Big oomph for them was playing off the immigration crisis in 2015. Our far right parties have gained a lot of ground purely by being a first (and effective) mover to social media and by non stop blasting the current mainstream parties vying for prominence. The political landscape is being eroded with polarization and tribalism because everyone can see that things are somehow not going according to how they should be going. You've got scandals coming out with people lining their pockets, or flatout not taking responsibility. It's low hanging fruit, which is now exposed by the people that don't want to play the same game. I kind of like it, if we can get to a more transparant way of governing and accountability towards our nation's stewards. Of course it's more than likely all just a charade on its own. Another chapter in the politician's playbook.
"Centrist" has the same problem as the misguided relativistic "left-right" dichotomy where it doesn't denote a coherent political philosophy, but people are accustomed to using it like it does.
What I find it means when people use these terms to describe themselves (leftist, centrist, rightist) is that they generally subscribe to a more recognizable political philosophy (liberalism, conservatism, libertarianism, etc) but with notable contradictions they are unable to reconcile within that framework.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
Shouldn't we extend the good faith in both directions and not call most people that identify as "centrist" cowardly closeted conservatives?
I think we're just misunderstanding each other. I was replying playfully to lestye. And just to preface, maybe we just have different experiences.
For me, as someone living in Oregon, I think many people I know have run into someone who is something like this:
And since it seems common for us to misunderstand each other, I am saying it is common to encounter someone who has ALL of the following attributes, and it is ONLY people who fit ALL of these attributes that I am teasing:
1) They insist they are not a republican and they are instead "centrist", "libertarian", or some kinda "no labels" thing.
2) They are anti-abortion
3) They are against gay marriage
4) They don't like the idea of wealth redistribution helping poor people
5) They commonly rant about left-leaning folks and literally never have a single bad thing to say about anything mildly conservative
6) They plan to vote for the republican candidate for governor of Oregon or presidential election or whatever at the time
I am saying it is common to find someone in Oregon who has all 6 attributes listed above. And it is very silly. And I am poking fun at people who fit ALL 6 attributes. Sorry for my lazy wording in my first post.
I suspect the people that insist on "some kinda no labels thing" or "centrist" are doing it because they know the entire point of labeling them MAGA or right-wing or whatever is so they can be outright impugned and their opinions summarily dismissed. That's the flavor of identity politics that is very popular at the moment and it's one side more than the other that is obsessed with slapping labels on people, whether it's MAGA, white supremacist, transphobe, xenophobe, bigot, anti-vaxxer, etc. there's a label for anything.
It's funny even here in the San Francisco Bay Area elected officials try to label their opponents/enemies as being MAGA fueled. The District Attorney of Alameda County that I've posted about previously has compared the recall efforts against her to the Jan 6 Insurrection. Setting the aside the hypocrisy of comparing a legitimate electoral process like a recall election to a coup, the idea that Berkeley/Oakland has a large MAGA contingent is preposterous. Of course they don't really believe that, it's just an attempt to get their supporters to circle the wagons by labeling their opponents as some outside fringe right-wing group when really their opponents are the "centrists" or even left of center. Labeling their opponents as right-wing is far more important to them than addressing their legitimate grievances.
On September 16 2023 06:26 BlackJack wrote: Yep. "If you don't fully buy into our ideology then you're either MAGA or alt-right, no ifs ands or buts." Pretty spot on, in my opinion.
my dude, i know you don't think that is what i was saying, so why not just be a little more good faith lol
Shouldn't we extend the good faith in both directions and not call most people that identify as "centrist" cowardly closeted conservatives?
I think we're just misunderstanding each other. I was replying playfully to lestye. And just to preface, maybe we just have different experiences.
For me, as someone living in Oregon, I think many people I know have run into someone who is something like this:
And since it seems common for us to misunderstand each other, I am saying it is common to encounter someone who has ALL of the following attributes, and it is ONLY people who fit ALL of these attributes that I am teasing:
1) They insist they are not a republican and they are instead "centrist", "libertarian", or some kinda "no labels" thing.
2) They are anti-abortion
3) They are against gay marriage
4) They don't like the idea of wealth redistribution helping poor people
5) They commonly rant about left-leaning folks and literally never have a single bad thing to say about anything mildly conservative
6) They plan to vote for the republican candidate for governor of Oregon or presidential election or whatever at the time
I am saying it is common to find someone in Oregon who has all 6 attributes listed above. And it is very silly. And I am poking fun at people who fit ALL 6 attributes. Sorry for my lazy wording in my first post.
I suspect the people that insist on "some kinda no labels thing" or "centrist" are doing it because they know the entire point of labeling them MAGA or right-wing or whatever is so they can be outright impugned and their opinions summarily dismissed. That's the flavor of identity politics that is very popular at the moment and it's one side more than the other that is obsessed with slapping labels on people, whether it's MAGA, white supremacist, transphobe, xenophobe, bigot, anti-vaxxer, etc. there's a label for anything.
It's funny even here in the San Francisco Bay Area elected officials try to label their opponents/enemies as being MAGA fueled. The District Attorney of Alameda County that I've posted about previously has compared the recall efforts against her to the Jan 6 Insurrection. Setting the aside the hypocrisy of comparing a legitimate electoral process like a recall election to a coup, the idea that Berkeley/Oakland has a large MAGA contingent is preposterous. Of course they don't really believe that, it's just an attempt to get their supporters to circle the wagon by labeling their opponents as some outside fringe right-wing group when really their opponents are the "centrists" or even left of center. Labeling their opponents as right-wing is far more important to them than addressing their legitimate grievances.
Those crazy Socialists. Can't believe those Leftists would do something like that. I'm sure it's just the DEMONcrats that would do something so awful as use a label to try to dismiss their opponents.
Republicans have been painting every moderate Democrat as a SOCIALIST for at least the last 20 years. They use that label to dismiss every democrat as being unacceptable. You personally may deal with it more the other way living in a very liberal part of California, but the rest of the country is very used to the labeling and dismissal coming from the right.
EPT
