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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3805

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Deleted User 173346
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
16169 Posts
November 09 2022 05:15 GMT
#76081
--- Nuked ---
StasisField
Profile Joined August 2013
United States1086 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-09 05:22:36
November 09 2022 05:22 GMT
#76082
Warnock takes back the lead from Walker but unless he can get over 50% of the vote, I fear he'll lose the runoff in December
What do you mean Immortals can't shoot up?
Deleted User 173346
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
16169 Posts
November 09 2022 05:25 GMT
#76083
--- Nuked ---
gobbledydook
Profile Joined October 2012
Australia2605 Posts
November 09 2022 05:27 GMT
#76084
Looks like Abrams conceded this time. Good on her.
I am a dirty Protoss bullshit abuser
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-09 05:37:10
November 09 2022 05:34 GMT
#76085
i was talking earlier about how you can't just chalk a 20 point swing in state (and 50 point swing in one of the largest counties) to candidates. but it does matter, so many of these races are frustratingly close. PA, GA, prob AZ. now the gop could still win 2/3, but it shouldn't have been close. glad I wasn't getting too pollyannaish. still, losing by so small amounts...

time for Trump to go away, time for DeSantis 2024. be a competent executive, take common sense positions, and don't needlessly antagonize people. house going red will still stop the dems agenda, at least. Biden still quite unpopular. would prob still beat trump again, unless his mental decline continues.

edit: or even look at people like Zeldin, who may hold Hochul to under 10 in NY. Even tho he was never going to win, shows there was real weakness to be exploited.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
November 09 2022 05:37 GMT
#76086
On November 09 2022 14:34 Introvert wrote:
i was talking earlier about how you can't just chalk a 20 point swing in state (and 50 point swing in one of the largest counties) to candidates. but it does matter, so many of these races are frustratingly close. PA, GA, prob AZ. now the gop could still win 2/3, but it shouldn't have been close. glad I wasn't getting too pollyannaish. still, losing by so small amounts...

time for Trump to go away, time for DeSantis 2024. be a competent executive, take common sense positions, and don't needlessly antagonize people. house going red will still stop the dems agenda, at least. Biden still quite unpopular. would prob still beat trump again, unless his mental decline continues.


What do you think of the recent Trump attacks on DeSantis? Do you think it will cause any affect on the next election cycle if they start seriously infighting?
Never Knows Best.
L_Master
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States8017 Posts
November 09 2022 05:38 GMT
#76087
On November 09 2022 14:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2022 13:41 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 13:30 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 09 2022 13:03 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:19 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:16 Slaughter wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:07 Introvert wrote:
niether of you are correct, but as I love election day, i'm going to just keep talking about that.

suffice to say, it's easy, if you try for a half a second, to understand why a pro-lifer would support Walker over Warnock. It really isn't hard.


I am well aware as to the why. What I am saying is that their underlying ideas that supports those beliefs are garbage.


I've already explained what two ideas those are (see reply to Kwark). You're still at least one to two levels too close. Closer to issue level than first principle driving reasons.

In fairness, they are not easy questions.

They aren't wrong about their preferred society being threatened by both serious socialist theory/praxis and to a lesser degree the bastardized social democrat versions. The problem for me is the society they want.

The division between Democrats and Republicans as I see it is about how best to mitigate the threat to racial capitalism posed by those exploited by it. Democrats lean on bread and circus/inclusion while Republicans lean on fear and bigotry.

Depending on how you measure, either could be right about how to most effectively perpetuate a US dominated hegemonic racial capitalist society. Ultimately, I believe both are dead ends in all too literal terms though.


Can I get a definition of racial capitalism so I know what you're seeing?

Obviously, I've got some guesses but I don't want to respond with something that I think it what you mean, but totally misconstrue your intended meaning. My guess is I'll agree with the observations of the issue, but probably not the causes.

I suspect that your characterization of D/R responses is decent to a first approximation, but I'll probably go a very different direction about how to handle it.

And probably a very important discussion of how we measure it (as that again goes back to the genetics question)


My understanding is rooted in Cedric Robinson's articulation in Black Marxism. The wiki is an okay place to start and includes this brief summation
capitalism "can only accumulate by producing and moving through relations of severe inequality among human groups", and therefore, for capitalism to survive, it must exploit and prey upon the "unequal differentiation of human value."


Also agree with the way Dr. Charisse Burden-Stelly puts it :
modern U.S. racial capitalism [is], "a racially hierarchical political economy constituting war and militarism, imperialist accumulation, expropriation by domination, and labor superexploitation."


Mmm, so looking at your sig + articles, what differentiates what you would like to see from capitalism then (since you would, presumably, advocate for markets)?

Presumably, your objection is going to be the (legitmate afaict), objection to exploitation potential that occurs when incentives are not aligned.

I guess you see it explicitly/most significantly along racial lines, but how do you distinguish exploitation from the differences in the genetic distribution of cognition and personality between races and between sexes?
Basically
Show nested quote +
for capitalism to survive, it must exploit and prey upon the "unequal differentiation of human value.
Socialism and the markets associated with it do not.

Just as a heads up, I'm highly skeptical of your sociological inferences, they read like a modernized phrenology to me.



How does it prey upon such things?

Or, if a different framing helps, how does socialism prevent this preying upon?

----

Wrt to genetics we know that both cognitive ability and personality behave in a way that suggests about 80% of the traits are a result of genetic distributions. The remaining 20% is environmental, but not in ways we know of. It's some combination of things that are not families, social upbringing, education, etc.

We do know many things that can be damaging though, including obvious ones like malnourishment, abuse, etc.

The ways in which we know are a myriad of different ways, drawing across all major disciplines of the biological sciences: neuroscience we know genetically determined characteristics of intelligent brains vs less-intelligent ones (increased synaptic transmission speed, increased pruning, etc.),

we know of the natural eugenic tendencies of civilizations in harsher climates as they moved out of Africa (intelligence generally decreases as you move equatorially -> less hostile climate -> less need for neural adaptability [intelligence]),

we have hosts of various studies in psychology as IQ is one of the most studied aspects in the discipline (large aggregate studies, school quality switching, many twin studies across different classes, massive number of longitudinal studies, differences in the shape of distribution across the sexes, incredibly well designed Swedish IVF study from a couple years back that put a huge nail in parenting as a possible hope, etc.

we know that AI can predict intelligence and political orientation from faces much better than humans (only possible if genetic),

and then we have a massive amount of purely anecdotal/observational data; e.g. regional distributions of intelligence suggesting lowest for sub saharan Africans, higher for south americans and arabs, higher still for the more temperate europeans, and then highest for northern europeans and asians, and everything pretty much lines with up with that in terms of what we see from the achievements of the great civilizations with Asian development of face before truth likely being the reason western culture (truth before face) likely being the reason for European dominance.

And that's legitimately like.....scratching the surface of what's out there, but I also really don't want to write a 50 page summary of the entirety of the top couple hundred papers across ten disciplines to give testimony to a reasonably obvious observation.


EffOrt and Soulkey Hwaiting!
Symplectos
Profile Joined July 2012
Luxembourg42 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-09 05:41:36
November 09 2022 05:40 GMT
#76088
time for Trump to go away, time for DeSantis 2024. be a competent executive, take common sense positions, and don't needlessly antagonize people.

Not needlessly antagonizing people really is DeSantis' strong suit. The same goes for common sense. \s

As an European, I am honestly interested in as to how someone as DeSantis can be seen as a good person with common sense, considering each time I hear him speak, he is trolling and behaving like a stubborn child.
"Beauty is the first test: there is no permanent place in the world for ugly mathematics." - G.H. Hardy
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28929 Posts
November 09 2022 05:42 GMT
#76089
While I also think DeSantis has a better chance at winning than Trump, I still strongly hope you can go with him.

GOP abandoning Trump is one of many, but perhaps the most important, step towards some achieving some degree of political commonality. I mean, it's not like the old status quo yielded particularly good political results, but imo it was still preferable to the whole union unraveling by its seams thing currently going on.
Moderator
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United States13779 Posts
November 09 2022 05:43 GMT
#76090
A lot of these Republican candidates really sucked, yeah. Wouldn't be too hard to unseat someone like Mark Kelly with a "generic seemingly competent Republican" but a truly horrendous contender makes that a bit out of reach. Warnock and Fetterman are toss-ups for what really should be an easy win.

At this rate it's probably R taking a narrow House win and Dems holding the Senate. Still not much clarity even at this hour, though.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
November 09 2022 05:44 GMT
#76091
On November 09 2022 14:37 Slaughter wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2022 14:34 Introvert wrote:
i was talking earlier about how you can't just chalk a 20 point swing in state (and 50 point swing in one of the largest counties) to candidates. but it does matter, so many of these races are frustratingly close. PA, GA, prob AZ. now the gop could still win 2/3, but it shouldn't have been close. glad I wasn't getting too pollyannaish. still, losing by so small amounts...

time for Trump to go away, time for DeSantis 2024. be a competent executive, take common sense positions, and don't needlessly antagonize people. house going red will still stop the dems agenda, at least. Biden still quite unpopular. would prob still beat trump again, unless his mental decline continues.


What do you think of the recent Trump attacks on DeSantis? Do you think it will cause any affect on the next election cycle if they start seriously infighting?


Fighting is inevitable, this is going to be a Republican primary. I'm not sure the cliché is always true, but GOP voters will go after each other like hell in primaries and come home for general elections.

I think Trump is hurt. A bunch of trump people are going down while RDS is winning FL by NINETEEN points. What is Trump's argument for himself? "Hey i lost in 2020 and most of my guys lost in 2022"?

to be honest, just from DeSantis' own personal position, this is the perfect result. He really stands out. He has to run this time tho, candidate who "wait their turn" normally lose. (Hillary last example of this).
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
November 09 2022 05:45 GMT
#76092
On November 09 2022 14:38 L_Master wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 09 2022 14:07 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 09 2022 13:41 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 13:30 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 09 2022 13:03 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:46 GreenHorizons wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:19 L_Master wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:16 Slaughter wrote:
On November 09 2022 12:07 Introvert wrote:
niether of you are correct, but as I love election day, i'm going to just keep talking about that.

suffice to say, it's easy, if you try for a half a second, to understand why a pro-lifer would support Walker over Warnock. It really isn't hard.


I am well aware as to the why. What I am saying is that their underlying ideas that supports those beliefs are garbage.


I've already explained what two ideas those are (see reply to Kwark). You're still at least one to two levels too close. Closer to issue level than first principle driving reasons.

In fairness, they are not easy questions.

They aren't wrong about their preferred society being threatened by both serious socialist theory/praxis and to a lesser degree the bastardized social democrat versions. The problem for me is the society they want.

The division between Democrats and Republicans as I see it is about how best to mitigate the threat to racial capitalism posed by those exploited by it. Democrats lean on bread and circus/inclusion while Republicans lean on fear and bigotry.

Depending on how you measure, either could be right about how to most effectively perpetuate a US dominated hegemonic racial capitalist society. Ultimately, I believe both are dead ends in all too literal terms though.


Can I get a definition of racial capitalism so I know what you're seeing?

Obviously, I've got some guesses but I don't want to respond with something that I think it what you mean, but totally misconstrue your intended meaning. My guess is I'll agree with the observations of the issue, but probably not the causes.

I suspect that your characterization of D/R responses is decent to a first approximation, but I'll probably go a very different direction about how to handle it.

And probably a very important discussion of how we measure it (as that again goes back to the genetics question)


My understanding is rooted in Cedric Robinson's articulation in Black Marxism. The wiki is an okay place to start and includes this brief summation
capitalism "can only accumulate by producing and moving through relations of severe inequality among human groups", and therefore, for capitalism to survive, it must exploit and prey upon the "unequal differentiation of human value."


Also agree with the way Dr. Charisse Burden-Stelly puts it :
modern U.S. racial capitalism [is], "a racially hierarchical political economy constituting war and militarism, imperialist accumulation, expropriation by domination, and labor superexploitation."


Mmm, so looking at your sig + articles, what differentiates what you would like to see from capitalism then (since you would, presumably, advocate for markets)?

Presumably, your objection is going to be the (legitmate afaict), objection to exploitation potential that occurs when incentives are not aligned.

I guess you see it explicitly/most significantly along racial lines, but how do you distinguish exploitation from the differences in the genetic distribution of cognition and personality between races and between sexes?
Basically
for capitalism to survive, it must exploit and prey upon the "unequal differentiation of human value.
Socialism and the markets associated with it do not.

Just as a heads up, I'm highly skeptical of your sociological inferences, they read like a modernized phrenology to me.



How does it prey upon such things?

Or, if a different framing helps, how does socialism prevent this preying upon?

----

Wrt to genetics we know that both cognitive ability and personality behave in a way that suggests about 80% of the traits are a result of genetic distributions. The remaining 20% is environmental, but not in ways we know of. It's some combination of things that are not families, social upbringing, education, etc.

We do know many things that can be damaging though, including obvious ones like malnourishment, abuse, etc.

The ways in which we know are a myriad of different ways, drawing across all major disciplines of the biological sciences: neuroscience we know genetically determined characteristics of intelligent brains vs less-intelligent ones (increased synaptic transmission speed, increased pruning, etc.),

we know of the natural eugenic tendencies of civilizations in harsher climates as they moved out of Africa (intelligence generally decreases as you move equatorially -> less hostile climate -> less need for neural adaptability [intelligence]),

we have hosts of various studies in psychology as IQ is one of the most studied aspects in the discipline (large aggregate studies, school quality switching, many twin studies across different classes, massive number of longitudinal studies, differences in the shape of distribution across the sexes, incredibly well designed Swedish IVF study from a couple years back that put a huge nail in parenting as a possible hope, etc.

we know that AI can predict intelligence and political orientation from faces much better than humans (only possible if genetic),

and then we have a massive amount of purely anecdotal/observational data; e.g. regional distributions of intelligence suggesting lowest for sub saharan Africans, higher for south americans and arabs, higher still for the more temperate europeans, and then highest for northern europeans and asians, and everything pretty much lines with up with that in terms of what we see from the achievements of the great civilizations with Asian development of face before truth likely being the reason western culture (truth before face) likely being the reason for European dominance.

And that's legitimately like.....scratching the surface of what's out there, but I also really don't want to write a 50 page summary of the entirety of the top couple hundred papers across ten disciplines to give testimony to a reasonably obvious observation.





Can't speak to other disciplines but I know that Anthropology would have several mighty bones to pick with a lot of your post, especially Biological and Socio/cultural Anthropologists.
Never Knows Best.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-09 05:49:08
November 09 2022 05:48 GMT
#76093
On November 09 2022 14:40 Symplectos wrote:
Show nested quote +
time for Trump to go away, time for DeSantis 2024. be a competent executive, take common sense positions, and don't needlessly antagonize people.

Not needlessly antagonizing people really is DeSantis' strong suit. The same goes for common sense. \s

As an European, I am honestly interested in as to how someone as DeSantis can be seen as a good person with common sense, considering each time I hear him speak, he is trolling and behaving like a stubborn child.


that's based on the media you consume. Trump used to shoot himself in the foot all the time, DeSantis doesn't. RDS also takes popular positions... his positon on Disney? majority support. the misnamed "Don't say gay bill"? majority support even among Democrats. Hurricane recovery? aced it. when dealing with things like natural disasters he drops the politics and focuses on the work. Winning by 30k votes in 2018 to 1.5 million four years later? Yes, i think the numbers speak to what I'm saying.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
November 09 2022 05:54 GMT
#76094
On November 09 2022 14:42 Liquid`Drone wrote:
While I also think DeSantis has a better chance at winning than Trump, I still strongly hope you can go with him.

GOP abandoning Trump is one of many, but perhaps the most important, step towards some achieving some degree of political commonality. I mean, it's not like the old status quo yielded particularly good political results, but imo it was still preferable to the whole union unraveling by its seams thing currently going on.


eh, despite nights even like tonight i'm not as pessimistic for the union as some others are. people who learn American history quickly realize that politics in this country has almost always been rancorous, vicious, and swingy.

and I know dems have come to despise it, but this is the strength of the federal system. the country WOULD have fallen apart by now without it. I'm concerned about the direction of the country for sure, but the system is resilient. if it goes, it's going to be slower than this.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
PhoenixVoid
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
Canada32761 Posts
November 09 2022 05:57 GMT
#76095
News orgs are projecting Fetterman to have won PA's Senate seat.

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1590220564093886464?s=20&t=AbDIZZHTp42FpVvdumHKNg

I'm reading that some of the races for NY's House seats are not going swimmingly for Dems though, so there may be some flips in places like NY-19.
I'm afraid of demented knife-wielding escaped lunatic libertarian zombie mutants
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20255 Posts
November 09 2022 06:04 GMT
#76096
I think DeSantis knows how to appeal and galvanize the base same as Trump without saying the quiet parts out loud. Though stunts like shipping immigrants to Martha's Vineyard certainly won't help him in national elections. Crist was not it for Florida Dems

Also I think he would def come out on top of Trump 1v1 but Trump is a viciously sore loser who won't rally behind someone who beat him like the other GOP politicians. He has taken quite the advantage over the fact that the spotlight has been on Trump for so long. Already people are starting to take a closer look at him now as he gains momentum and we are already seeing stories drop about him like his partying with underage girls story that came out recently. He is Trump with a better coat of paint and if that moniker sticks Dems could be similarly motivated to stop his ascension.

Could he win still? Sure, but inflation won't last forever and if the economy is in recovery mode by the next election he will have far less ammunition to strike at Biden with.
Never Knows Best.
Deleted User 173346
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
16169 Posts
November 09 2022 06:08 GMT
#76097
--- Nuked ---
ChristianS
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States3304 Posts
November 09 2022 06:08 GMT
#76098
Didn’t DeSantis basically invent the calling people “groomers” thing? Seems like he’s been on the front line of every hot button culture war issue, that’s hardly “not needlessly antagonizing people.”
"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity." -Robert J. Hanlon
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
November 09 2022 06:10 GMT
#76099
On November 09 2022 15:08 ChristianS wrote:
Didn’t DeSantis basically invent the calling people “groomers” thing? Seems like he’s been on the front line of every hot button culture war issue, that’s hardly “not needlessly antagonizing people.”

key word "needless" i suppose there is a lot of room there.

"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States5093 Posts
Last Edited: 2022-11-09 06:15:52
November 09 2022 06:14 GMT
#76100
On November 09 2022 15:04 Slaughter wrote:
I think DeSantis knows how to appeal and galvanize the base same as Trump without saying the quiet parts out loud. Though stunts like shipping immigrants to Martha's Vineyard certainly won't help him in national elections. Crist was not it for Florida Dems

Also I think he would def come out on top of Trump 1v1 but Trump is a viciously sore loser who won't rally behind someone who beat him like the other GOP politicians. He has taken quite the advantage over the fact that the spotlight has been on Trump for so long. Already people are starting to take a closer look at him now as he gains momentum and we are already seeing stories drop about him like his partying with underage girls story that came out recently. He is Trump with a better coat of paint and if that moniker sticks Dems could be similarly motivated to stop his ascension.

Could he win still? Sure, but inflation won't last forever and if the economy is in recovery mode by the next election he will have far less ammunition to strike at Biden with.


that didn't help HWB. He had a recession start and end in his term and was held accountable for it, even though it ended before the election in 92. It's one thing to come into office when things are already bad (Reagan, Obama) another to own them entirely.

Remember, Trump was deeply unliked in 2020 and yet Biden barely squeaked past him. Biden is weak, and has been at low approval even before the economy went south (August of last year). and I don't think you can discount his obvious cognitive decline. but things just go interesting for dems, people like Newsom were setting up for a run. now? who knows.

edit: to drive this home, president's parties never do this well when they have approval in the low 40s. he's not popular. to me it seems like this is about Trump, who refuses to go away like most normal ex-presidents.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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