US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3766

On August 26 2022 00:01 Mohdoo wrote:

The new discretionary income calculation in addition to 5% rather than 10%, and no interest accrual as long as you make payments, is gigantic and way bigger than the forgiveness lol

On August 26 2022 04:59 StasisField wrote:

Could someone clarify the bolded part with me: Does this mean that if you owe less than 12k after 10 years that your loan is forgiven, or does this mean that your loan is forgiven after 10 years if you initially borrowed less than 12k? There are going to be lots of accounts that had a balance greater than 12k before forgiveness and less than 12k after forgiveness, and if it's the latter rather than the former, I think many people might end up unhappy when they're informed they have to continue paying for 10 more years than they thought they would.

On August 26 2022 03:58 farvacola wrote:
It seems essentially every single rightwing faux-moralizer a la Ben Shapiro obtained a PPP loan that was subsequently forgiven, so twitter is something of a bloodbath right now as these people get dunked on while attempting to cast aspersions on student loan forgiveness, I recommend taking a look for some laughs.

On August 26 2022 08:00 Introvert wrote:
But fine! I can't wait to see what new half-trillion dollar thing the next Republican president will try to pay for.

On August 26 2022 08:00 Introvert wrote:


He disputes that but it's remarkable to me that people are equating these two things.

1) The PPP program was created by Congress and the forgiven loans are part of the law. Meanwhile the best description I've seen on Biden's actions is constitutional nihilism. Either Biden intends this policy to go through or if he thinks the courts will stop it (ala eviction moratorium) it's awful. There is hypocrisy everywhere. All those mad at 12 billion given to farmers to pay for tariffs or the billions Trump moved to build the wall ought to be up in arms about using such specious reasoning to essentially add over three-hundred billion to the government's debts. But fine! I can't wait to see what new half-trillion dollar thing the next Republican president will try to pay for. The scope of this alone ought to cause the hopefully Republican congress coming next year to hold Biden to account. it makes the <20 billion for Trump's wall to look like pocket change. And with less (no) legal grounding.

2) Meanwhile conservatives have no/little beef with PPP because much burden on these business was government imposed with all the COVID mandates. This is in some ways a government taking that is being paid back. Meanwhile we have people in this very thread who are admittedly very well off, or will be in time, celebrating that loans they took out are reduced or eliminated. It's nuts this applies to grad school loans too. Nevermind the terrible incentives and moral hazards, this whole thing is obscene.

On August 26 2022 08:27 BlackJack wrote:
I never agreed with the reasoning that someone is a hypocrite for playing by the rules if they argued that the rules should be different. It reminds me of Warren Buffet saying the wealthy should have fewer tax loopholes and pay more in taxes and then the Republicans whine "well why don't you just pay more taxes and stop using the loopholes you hypocrite!"

On August 26 2022 09:00 WombaT wrote:

As per 2, what business?

If you say, owned a popular bar that had to shut due to COVID restrictions, that was forced to shut due to Government mandated restrictions, then being reimbursed seems to be entirely reasonable.

If you are say, Ben Shapiro who runs a basically entirely online business empire to begin with, what loss of trade are you claiming back exactly?

What loss of income does your online enterprise suffer that a government write off is needed? Especially when you’re simultaneously pontificating that students shouldn’t have any debt forgiven.

It’s absolute rank hypocrisy, as per usual. And as it’s a matter of public record that is easily searchable we’re seeing it laid bare.

You’re complaining that well-off people in the threads who’ve advocated for wider student loan forgiveness benefit here, while giving conservatives, who have personally advocated against debt relief while taking unnecessary loan relief a complete pass.

Come off it.

On August 26 2022 09:02 Sermokala wrote:

I assume this is reference to the white house twitter account quote tweeting republicans complaining about student loans forgiveness and then listing how much PPP loans they got forgiven?

Its beacuse they're advocating that its bad for other people to exploit the loopholes that they found. The republicans exploited a loophole to get debt forgiveness on loans they took out but when students do it its bad and they should have to repay loans they took.

On August 26 2022 09:13 Introvert wrote:


Please, tell me where I gave a pass to anyone who took a loan they shouldn't have. Best I can say is that at least they will be required to pay it back. Complete opposite of this scenario.

The point of PPP was prevent a massive amount of businesses going bankrupt and losing all their employees, creating a death spiral. I don't recall the exact terms, but you got more of the loans forgiven if you could show that the money went towards keeping people employed.

So, setting aside the legality (a huge thing to set aside, but still).

Again, Shapiro denies he took a loan and says that's another Ben Shapiro. There's another list going around with politicians and I don't think that's entirely accurate either. I've seen a number of people do this, they just put in some name and take the first result that appears. So take someone else that got a PPP loan but opposes this, I see absolutely no contradiction here. If they took a loan and it didn't help anyone presumably they would have to pay all or most of it back. And this was in response to a pandemic and government imposed regulations, which effected everyone even if just tangentially.

There is no such excuse for forgiving debt willingly taken on, espeically by people who went to grad school or law school, or something similar. Delay? Fine. The demographic that most benefits from this move is actually the best off and suffered the least during COVID, but whatever, we can let that slide.

But I get it, the way the left's moral and political axes cross means that acknowledging a difference here would cause too much cognitive dissonance. Therefore, they must say these two situations are equivalent, or else they are guilty of the "screw you I got mine" mindset they accuse Republicans of having.



"Loophole." Look at the word games this policy requires you guys to play.

On August 26 2022 09:33 WombaT wrote:

Have you not kept track on why people are annoyed at this? It’s not that these loans were given out, in some cases they were also entirely written off subsequently.

Perhaps people have got the wrong man, and it’s not the notable Ben Shapiro that got a 70 grand loan and it subsequently written off.

As I said, for businesses forced into inactivity, government compensation to keep them afloat seems entirely prudent to me. If one runs and entirely online media empire, I’m struggling to see the loss of income. Indeed governments forcing people to remain indoors more than regular is probably a boon to your business.

I’m failing to see the cognitive dissonance here. ‘I have advocated for student loan debt relief, for everyone. We now have student loan debt relief, I shall personally make use of this’.

Where’s the dissonance there?

You may feel those policy prescriptions are incorrect but there’s nothing incoherent or dissonant about them.

On August 26 2022 09:42 Introvert wrote:


People aren't annoyed that someone may have *abused* PPP. They are straight up comparing people like Shapiro or MTG to college graduates having their debt forgiven. Democrats are out there today simply saying "this person got $x in PPP loans forgiven, what a hypocrite!" completely ignoring the circumstances around both this atrocity and the PPP program. They act is if the mere receipt of a loan and its forgiveness is hypocrisy. The two situations are completely different and yet we are pretending they are similar, that's what disconnected here.

On August 26 2022 10:01 WombaT wrote:

Where is the disconnect?

X individual publicly advocates against debt forgiveness on grounds of personal responsibility/the government isn’t a nanny. X person takes a loan they don’t need that is subsequently written off.

It’s unbelievably hypocritical, there’s no way you don’t recognise this.

Again, as I said. If you have a brick and mortar business that was shut down by government diktat, you’re entitled to commensurate compensation. You may indeed feel that student debt forgiveness is a bad idea, but you take that government loan.

You’re not a hypocrite in that scenario because the cessation of your business was foisted upon you. It’s that or go bust.

If your business is, let’s say a basically entirely online media concern, lockdowns aren’t affecting your bottom line to near the same degree. Indeed they may help your bottom line, more of a captive audience.

So yeah, you’re a giant fucking hypocrite if you’re taking money from the government while lecturing about it on the airwaves.

That said I still don’t think this is good policy, at best it’s a vote winning bandaid. It’s laying on a bunch more on to the national debt and giving temporary relief while dealing with none of the actual issues. And there doesn’t seem much prospect of the actual issues being dealt with.

College costs too much, and we’re approaching a Catch 22 level where for many jobs a degree is both a pre-requisite, nor a proof of qualification as so many people obtain degrees knowing they’re required for so many jobs that don’t need them.

I mean this fixes none of the structural problems in American tertiary education, it alleviates some crippling financial pressure which is better than nothing but it’s a complete band aid measure.

On August 26 2022 10:03 Sermokala wrote:
Introvert I was just using the same words bj was using in his post. He was referencing rich people and tax loopholes and I was explaining using that reference.

The ppp loans were loans full stop. Their mechanic for being forgiven was based on the premise of what they would do with the loan money but it's beyond silly to pretend that they were pitched as something like the tarp bailouts that would be repaid.

It represented a much larger transfer of wealth then what student loan forgiveness is. The callus insistence that 18 year olds being funneled into degrees they were told would pay for themselves all being actually able to pay them off looking at any part of the economy recently is pretty offensive.

Atrocity? What is wrong with you having such hate for regular people?

On August 26 2022 10:36 Introvert wrote:


Against whom are you arguing? I already condemned someone who took PPP loans who didn't need them...meanwhile I know of basically no one who opposed the PPP program per se. We can argue about its extensions or extent, but I don't know of any conservatives who opposed having the government compensate businesses it burdened (there may be some I suppose). So it would be hard to find a hypocrite on that front. Is that what you think (allegedly) happened with Shapiro?

The logic of student loan forgiveness is not at all the same. Sure, the law Biden is trying to use links a national emergency with COVID but the circumstances that predicated the loans are completely different. If the underlying reason for the loans was not COVID, then there's no reason for Biden to forgive the loans. It made some sense with COVID to delay them. No, this has been something a certain segment of the Democrat base has wanted for years now, even before COVID.

And yes, one reason to oppose this is not because I "hate regular people" it's because the incentives this creates are terrible as well.

edit: edited in a very important "not"




You are calling PPP loan forgiveness a loophole despite it being a core part of the program. I object to your use of the word in an attempt to equivocate.