EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3653
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
I just don't see it happening. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Sermokala
United States13828 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23061 Posts
On May 28 2022 07:30 plasmidghost wrote: I don't really get too much into my far-ledt politics on here but I'm extremely in favor of complete police abolition and redirecting the obscene budgets of police departments to the communities they destroy. The police only serve the white and rich in the United States and there is no way whatsoever that they can be reformed. All cops are bastards and the longer we funnel any money into them and give them authority, the more people they will kill and the more lives they will ruin. Couldn't agree more. Unfortunately, giving cops more money is one of the few things that gets bipartisan support, including from the President. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24799 Posts
On May 28 2022 08:09 Sermokala wrote: Half of America can't conceive of doing what has worked in other countries. This is legitimately the most baffling part in an era of free information exchange. It’s not like we’re dealing with uncharted territory, some revolutionary policy that’s never been attempted before, and there’s some skepticism over its viability. Socialised healthcare can’t work? Well I mean it obviously can. Citizenry not running around with military grade weapons? I mean, it obviously can. It’s like inverse American exceptionalism, where apparently America is so dysfunctional it can’t do basic shit that other countries take for granted. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24799 Posts
On May 28 2022 07:30 plasmidghost wrote: I don't really get too much into my far-ledt politics on here but I'm extremely in favor of complete police abolition and redirecting the obscene budgets of police departments to the communities they destroy. The police only serve the white and rich in the United States and there is no way whatsoever that they can be reformed. All cops are bastards and the longer we funnel any money into them and give them authority, the more people they will kill and the more lives they will ruin. It requires wider reform, and a complete reframing of how society functions. If we take America as it is, socially and politically and just remove the police, I don’t think that works out all that well. An America as is but without police I don’t think is a particularly better place. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On May 28 2022 09:07 WombaT wrote: It requires wider reform, and a complete reframing of how society functions. If we take America as it is, socially and politically and just remove the police, I don’t think that works out all that well. An America as is but without police I don’t think is a particularly better place. I'm having a harder and harder time agreeing with that as time goes on. If the police hadn't intervened in Uvalde, someone might have actually stopped the shooter before a class full of children were killed. Intentionally or not, they did everything they could've possibly done to make that situation worse. There surely would be an air of anarchy if the police as an institution suddenly disintegrated, and I shudder to think of what a bunch of white boys with guns would do if they felt like they had to step in and be the authority figure. But worse than what we currently have, with crooked cops actively assailing non-white communities nationwide on basically a constant basis? That's a tough sell for me. Cops have the strongest union in America backing up their violence and cruelty. They get away with whatever the fuck they want, whenever they want, and the worst that happens to the officers who fuck up badly enough is they ship them off to a different department and unleash them on an entirely new community. Wash, rinse, repeat. Biden's stance on law enforcement as a whole is chief among many disappointments I kind of knew were coming down the pipe when he won the Democratic nomination. I don't think any of the doomsaying about his presidency, from his left at least, were off the mark. | ||
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Laurens
Belgium4539 Posts
There surely would be an air of anarchy if the police as an institution suddenly disintegrated, and I shudder to think of what a bunch of white boys with guns would do if they felt like they had to step in and be the authority figure. But worse than what we currently have, with crooked cops actively assailing non-white communities nationwide on basically a constant basis? That's a tough sell for me. Yes it would absolutely be worse than what you currently have. In a deeply divided country where literally everyone has guns, you want to take away law enforcement? Man I really don't think that's a good idea. I mean just imagine January 6th without any police force there to stop the mob, yikes. | ||
KwarK
United States42421 Posts
On May 28 2022 08:04 JimmiC wrote: Guns are a big part of why your police are the way they are. They have a legitimate chance of shot, they likely know someone shot or killed, many have ptsd. In other countires every traffic stop is not a potential life or dealth situation. Not saying your law enforcement is not bad, but until you deal with guns and way outdated war or drugs among other issued you are going to get what you get. And sadly you kind of need police to be a gang when there are well funded, well armed guns basically everywhere in the US. If you had the mitary or something deal with it, it would likely be worse. You guys would have so much money for so many awesome programs if you just dealt with guns and war on drugs. The savings woukd be in the billions at least. Soldiers are held to stricter rules of engagement and also sometimes have to deal with guns. | ||
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BlackJack
United States10372 Posts
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html Nevertheless, three-quarters of the poll’s Black respondents said the city shouldn’t reduce its police force. Black voters were considerably more opposed to this idea than white voters were. When the poll offered an alternative—replacing the police department with a “Department of Public Safety,” which might include cops but would focus on public health and be more closely supervised by the City Council—white respondents favored the idea. But Black respondents, on balance, rejected it. That survey, commissioned by the Detroit Free Press and USA Today, presented a list of eight issues and asked residents which was the biggest one facing the city. White respondents were slightly more likely to choose police reform than public safety. But Black respondents named public safety as their top concern, and they ranked police reform last. White residents opposed defunding the police, but Black residents rejected it even more decisively. You see the last thing black people unfortunate enough to live in high-crime neighborhoods want is fewer police and longer response times. The biggest supporters of abolish the police are rich white people that are privileged enough to live in low-crime areas and want to play white savior for minorities. Per usual, they don’t even both to listen to the people they are trying to “save.” This thread is ridiculously out of touch. Just like that guy from Turkey showed up to explain that America isn’t a police state. Maybe now someone from a rough neighborhood of Detroit or Baltimore can show up and explain that, no, they don’t want fewer police. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On May 28 2022 18:06 BlackJack wrote: Polls show that white voters are significantly more likely to favor defund the police or abolish the police than black voters. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html You see the last thing black people unfortunate enough to live in high-crime neighborhoods want is fewer police and longer response times. The biggest supporters of abolish the police are rich white people that are privileged enough to live in low-crime areas and want to play white savior for minorities. Per usual, they don’t even both to listen to the people they are trying to “save.” This thread is ridiculously out of touch. Just like that guy from Turkey showed up to explain that America isn’t a police state. Maybe now someone from a rough neighborhood of Detroit or Baltimore can show up and explain that, no, they don’t want fewer police. It's like you didn't read all the answers to the post mentionning abolishing the police | ||
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ChristianS
United States3187 Posts
On May 28 2022 18:06 BlackJack wrote: Polls show that white voters are significantly more likely to favor defund the police or abolish the police than black voters. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html You see the last thing black people unfortunate enough to live in high-crime neighborhoods want is fewer police and longer response times. The biggest supporters of abolish the police are rich white people that are privileged enough to live in low-crime areas and want to play white savior for minorities. Per usual, they don’t even both to listen to the people they are trying to “save.” This thread is ridiculously out of touch. Just like that guy from Turkey showed up to explain that America isn’t a police state. Maybe now someone from a rough neighborhood of Detroit or Baltimore can show up and explain that, no, they don’t want fewer police. Surprises me a little you think “lots of *white people* agree with your position, but *black people* don’t” is some kinda mic drop argument. Can’t people just argue for or against a policy on its merits? Do you support ignoring white people and deferring to a majority of black people on all issues, or just this one? In this thread for ages the only proponent of “abolish the police” was GH, and I’ve never seen the thread more mad at him. Years later people were in the website feedback thread citing that argument as a reason he should be banned. Since 2020 I think everybody softened on the argument quite a bit, but I think most left-leaning posters (Mohdoo I’m pretty sure, idk about everyone else) still think “defund the police” was a bad slogan that cost dems a bunch of seats in 2020. Anyway, does that mean you’re in a “reform the police”-type position? Or are you more a “back the blue” type? (I hate to generalize the factions so grossly, but everybody I’ve met seems to happily identify with either “abolish,” “reform,” or “thin blue line” pretty cleanly). I’d love if the thread did a little more on-the-merits discussion of law enforcement policy. Even during 2020 I remember feeling like we dropped the subject kinda quick. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24799 Posts
On May 28 2022 18:06 BlackJack wrote: Polls show that white voters are significantly more likely to favor defund the police or abolish the police than black voters. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2021/10/police-reform-polls-white-black-crime.html You see the last thing black people unfortunate enough to live in high-crime neighborhoods want is fewer police and longer response times. The biggest supporters of abolish the police are rich white people that are privileged enough to live in low-crime areas and want to play white savior for minorities. Per usual, they don’t even both to listen to the people they are trying to “save.” This thread is ridiculously out of touch. Just like that guy from Turkey showed up to explain that America isn’t a police state. Maybe now someone from a rough neighborhood of Detroit or Baltimore can show up and explain that, no, they don’t want fewer police. As I and a few others who are in favour of more radical reform have said, doing it singularly is madness, because it’s not meant to be done in isolation. You’d be talking about dragging the Western world’s most punitive and militaristic approach to crime and justice right the way over to being the most progressive and multifaceted, rehabilitation-oriented approach. So yeah that’s just going to be unfathomably unrealistic to people, and with good cause. I don’t think it’s reflective of the thread being out of touch whatsoever, as to my knowledge nobody has claimed these would be currently popular measures in these communities. That doesn’t preclude it being a sound idea fundamentally. People across the board don’t tend to like ambitious, imaginative public policy, whatever the topic at hand. There’s a very simple cause and effect approach to issues, and crime is probably the most subject to this. That said there is certainly the danger of slipping into paternalism when discussing these issues, and I’ve absolutely seen many fall into that pattern, I would say the thread largely sidesteps this, we’re ultimately just forum folks discussing our favoured policy prescriptions and don’t generally purport to speak on behalf of anyone. | ||
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Vivax
21959 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Vivax
21959 Posts
On May 29 2022 01:09 JimmiC wrote: There have been multiple countries who have increased gun control without many instances. The US has way more so there may be some. But many people will just turn in as part of the by back and so on. Also, you really need to deal with the hand guns. Mass shootings are more the AR style but hand guns cause the most deaths. You are also mixing up people. GH is pro gun and pro abolish police. I do not know how many people actually fall into the category you are speaking about. Well you can’t demand more laws and less control instance with a straight face. Not directed at anyone in particular but being anti gun and anti police leads to that paradox. The only thing one can do in my opinion to curb a black market is to tackle the problem at the production site which will never happen in the US with the industry attached to it. Also, 3D printers. | ||
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