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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On April 13 2022 06:34 Zambrah wrote: To be fair, petty delusional claims have been shown to help win elections in the US as of late, lol Long as you waive criticism of the other side for doing the same as well - all's fair in politics I guess.
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United States43353 Posts
On April 13 2022 06:59 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 23:34 KwarK wrote:On April 12 2022 23:06 Doc.Rivers wrote: Yeah I mean I'm not sure anyone is saying we should build a wall over 100% of the border. But it is new and different for democratic senators to be admitting that physical barriers are a good idea. Trump showed it to be a winning issue, and now many seem to be acknowledging that it is urgent that we do more to stop illegal immigration at the southern border. It’s really not a new thing. We’ve always had physical barriers. Clinton built a bunch of them. The point has always been that a wall along the entire border, which a lot of conservatives are explicitly calling for, is dumb as fuck. Walls on either side of gates at checkpoints aren’t controversial. You’ve reimagined both sides of this. The two sides aren’t liberals saying tear down all physical barriers everywhere and Trumpers saying that some fencing at strategic locations is probably smart. They’re liberals saying that a giant wall across the entire southern border is dumb and Trumpers saying it would be great. Maybe a couple trumpers on Twitter said the wall should be built on top of mountains and in the middle of rivers. But Trump won an election with "build the wall" being his main point, and dems opposed his barrier-building at every turn. What I heard liberals saying was that barriers are ineffective (must oppose trump; all it takes is a ladder to get over the barrier). E.g. the NPR article Jimmi cited implies that barriers are ineffective because border crossing numbers are high in areas where there are barriers. The wall, as described by Trump, was coast to coast.
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I think it's more the attitude of the Biden administration that's causing the problems. Trump never got significant work done on actual wall building.
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On April 13 2022 09:15 gobbledydook wrote: I think it's more the attitude of the Biden administration that's causing the problems. Trump never got significant work done on actual wall building. He spent like more than $10 Billion to get less than a few miles of new Wall built.
The attitude of the Biden administration to treat Immigrants as human beings and valuable human capital for the nation isn't a problem. Its Biden not being racist against brown people that is the problem.
Beto shouldn't be anywhere near abbot. I said it after the last second and I'l say it again. The Dems should be putting their Florida funding into flipping texas blue. It looks more and more vulnerable by the year and can end the republican parties presidential path to victory before it begins.
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On April 13 2022 09:15 gobbledydook wrote: I think it's more the attitude of the Biden administration that's causing the problems. Trump never got significant work done on actual wall building.
Being against illegal immigration doesn't make you racist. It's despicable how the Democrats automatically paint anyone for strong borders as racist.
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On April 13 2022 11:36 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 09:15 gobbledydook wrote: I think it's more the attitude of the Biden administration that's causing the problems. Trump never got significant work done on actual wall building. Being against illegal immigration doesn't make you racist. It's despicable how the Democrats automatically paint anyone for strong borders as racist.
I bought the "you're just racist" thing right up until the great resignation. Cheap foreign labor harms Americans.
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Farms not willing to pay a wage Americans are willing to take for the job is the real story there, imo.
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On April 12 2022 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 04:57 plasmidghost wrote: With the midterms happening in seven months, what can Biden do to improve seriously lagging poll numbers and enthusiasm? More importantly, what will he be likely to do? 1) Targeted tax on all billionaires 2) Substantial student loan reform 3) Don't touch abortion with a 10 ft pole 4) Don't touch immigration with a 10 ft pole 5) Executive order on something related to drug prices 6) Executive order on something related to child tax credit 7) Executive order on weed 8) Take obvious action in Ukraine such that the Ukraine war wraps up and the US had an obvious, large role in Russia losing 9) Gas prices average down to $3 10) Inflation not a big deal anymore through some mechanism
If he got at least some of these things done I'd consider voting for him. If he just sits on his hands its not going to happen for me and I'm sure many others. The democratic party needs a reset, hopefully they do it voluntarily, if not it will happen anyway starting with the midterms.
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On April 13 2022 12:59 Gahlo wrote: Farms not willing to pay a wage Americans are willing to take for the job is the real story there, imo.
Yes, I agree with that. As I described in a previous message, I totally drank the koolaid of "foreign workers are willing to do jobs americans aren't willing to do", right until people started quitting, demanding higher wages, then receiving higher wages.
When a farmer says "come pick fruit for $8/hour" and no one shows up, it doesn't mean Americans won't do the work. It means the employment is predatory. If that was $20/hour, a lot more people would show up. Illegal immigrants being willing to work for less is not some wonderful synergy, it is damaging to the lower class.
One of the best examples of what is essentially employer-welfare is people saying stuff like "do you have any idea how hard it is to run a restaurant? If I had to pay people $20/hour, I'd go out of business"
Yes, it sounds like that should happen. Apparently you aren't good at what you are trying to do. Your business should shut down, because as you pointed out, you are trying to do something very difficult and not doing a good job. A big part of the problem is that business owners feel an implied sense of exceptionalism. The idea that they can't afford to pay people well because their business sucks and they suck as owners never enters their mind. If farmer joe can only afford to pay illegal immigrants, farmer joe is a shitty farmer and needs to close down.
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On April 13 2022 13:27 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2022 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 12 2022 04:57 plasmidghost wrote: With the midterms happening in seven months, what can Biden do to improve seriously lagging poll numbers and enthusiasm? More importantly, what will he be likely to do? 1) Targeted tax on all billionaires 2) Substantial student loan reform 3) Don't touch abortion with a 10 ft pole 4) Don't touch immigration with a 10 ft pole 5) Executive order on something related to drug prices 6) Executive order on something related to child tax credit 7) Executive order on weed 8) Take obvious action in Ukraine such that the Ukraine war wraps up and the US had an obvious, large role in Russia losing 9) Gas prices average down to $3 10) Inflation not a big deal anymore through some mechanism If he got at least some of these things done I'd consider voting for him. If he just sits on his hands its not going to happen for me and I'm sure many others. The democratic party needs a reset, hopefully they do it voluntarily, if not it will happen anyway starting with the midterms.
The bare minimum for me are the things he can do with executive order: student loans and weed. If he doesn't even do that, I completely give up and I have no incentive to vote for him. I already live in a safe blue state so my vote is entirely symbolic anyway. I won't vote for a single democrat, local or otherwise, if he fails to tackle student loans and weed.
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On April 13 2022 13:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 12:59 Gahlo wrote: Farms not willing to pay a wage Americans are willing to take for the job is the real story there, imo. Yes, I agree with that. As I described in a previous message, I totally drank the koolaid of "foreign workers are willing to do jobs americans aren't willing to do", right until people started quitting, demanding higher wages, then receiving higher wages. When a farmer says "come pick fruit for $8/hour" and no one shows up, it doesn't mean Americans won't do the work. It means the employment is predatory. If that was $20/hour, a lot more people would show up. Illegal immigrants being willing to work for less is not some wonderful synergy, it is damaging to the lower class. One of the best examples of what is essentially employer-welfare is people saying stuff like "do you have any idea how hard it is to run a restaurant? If I had to pay people $20/hour, I'd go out of business" Yes, it sounds like that should happen. Apparently you aren't good at what you are trying to do. Your business should shut down, because as you pointed out, you are trying to do something very difficult and not doing a good job. A big part of the problem is that business owners feel an implied sense of exceptionalism. The idea that they can't afford to pay people well because their business sucks and they suck as owners never enters their mind. If farmer joe can only afford to pay illegal immigrants, farmer joe is a shitty farmer and needs to close down.
We have a similar problem in Australia.
Our farms heavily rely on 'backpackers' and 'seasonal workers' who come to Australia on a visa, work for a few months and leave. When Covid hit, no one was allowed to come to Australia, and many farms struggled whether they were massive farms or small family owned businesses. The government set up schemes to lure students and other young people to work there, but turns out people just don't like working for 12 hours under the sun, or being stuck in the middle of nowhere for months and having no night life. By all standards, those wages would be double or triple what they would have been making in the city.
The farmers also have another issue - the market for produce is really tight and margins are low, mostly because the wholesalers such as supermarkets don't pay that much. If the supermarkets paid more, they would have to raise prices, and then you have inflation which makes everyone's newly-increased wages worth less anyway.
I'm not even sure what the solution to this problem is.
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On April 13 2022 14:13 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 13:27 Nick_54 wrote:On April 12 2022 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 12 2022 04:57 plasmidghost wrote: With the midterms happening in seven months, what can Biden do to improve seriously lagging poll numbers and enthusiasm? More importantly, what will he be likely to do? 1) Targeted tax on all billionaires 2) Substantial student loan reform 3) Don't touch abortion with a 10 ft pole 4) Don't touch immigration with a 10 ft pole 5) Executive order on something related to drug prices 6) Executive order on something related to child tax credit 7) Executive order on weed 8) Take obvious action in Ukraine such that the Ukraine war wraps up and the US had an obvious, large role in Russia losing 9) Gas prices average down to $3 10) Inflation not a big deal anymore through some mechanism If he got at least some of these things done I'd consider voting for him. If he just sits on his hands its not going to happen for me and I'm sure many others. The democratic party needs a reset, hopefully they do it voluntarily, if not it will happen anyway starting with the midterms. The bare minimum for me are the things he can do with executive order: student loans and weed. If he doesn't even do that, I completely give up and I have no incentive to vote for him. I already live in a safe blue state so my vote is entirely symbolic anyway. I won't vote for a single democrat, local or otherwise, if he fails to tackle student loans and weed.
Agreed, especially since he promised both and has 100% authority to act on both through executive orders.
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On April 13 2022 14:13 gobbledydook wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 13:36 Mohdoo wrote:On April 13 2022 12:59 Gahlo wrote: Farms not willing to pay a wage Americans are willing to take for the job is the real story there, imo. Yes, I agree with that. As I described in a previous message, I totally drank the koolaid of "foreign workers are willing to do jobs americans aren't willing to do", right until people started quitting, demanding higher wages, then receiving higher wages. When a farmer says "come pick fruit for $8/hour" and no one shows up, it doesn't mean Americans won't do the work. It means the employment is predatory. If that was $20/hour, a lot more people would show up. Illegal immigrants being willing to work for less is not some wonderful synergy, it is damaging to the lower class. One of the best examples of what is essentially employer-welfare is people saying stuff like "do you have any idea how hard it is to run a restaurant? If I had to pay people $20/hour, I'd go out of business" Yes, it sounds like that should happen. Apparently you aren't good at what you are trying to do. Your business should shut down, because as you pointed out, you are trying to do something very difficult and not doing a good job. A big part of the problem is that business owners feel an implied sense of exceptionalism. The idea that they can't afford to pay people well because their business sucks and they suck as owners never enters their mind. If farmer joe can only afford to pay illegal immigrants, farmer joe is a shitty farmer and needs to close down. We have a similar problem in Australia. Our farms heavily rely on 'backpackers' and 'seasonal workers' who come to Australia on a visa, work for a few months and leave. When Covid hit, no one was allowed to come to Australia, and many farms struggled whether they were massive farms or small family owned businesses. The government set up schemes to lure students and other young people to work there, but turns out people just don't like working for 12 hours under the sun, or being stuck in the middle of nowhere for months and having no night life. By all standards, those wages would be double or triple what they would have been making in the city. The farmers also have another issue - the market for produce is really tight and margins are low, mostly because the wholesalers such as supermarkets don't pay that much. If the supermarkets paid more, they would have to raise prices, and then you have inflation which makes everyone's newly-increased wages worth less anyway. I'm not even sure what the solution to this problem is.
I think the solution is government subsidies. Food independence is really important, just like drug manufacturing, power and many other things. Certain crucial jobs/industries need to be kept local rather than relying on globalism. Seasonal workers is a terrible system. That is a sign of government failure IMO. The government's job is to provide a stable, safe life for its citizens. Unstable farming industry is a really big deal. That hurts stability and safety.
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One big problem is that farming jobs are inherently seasonal. You need a lot of workers during harvest season, and not many for the rest of the year. This means that for at least half of the year, there's nothing to do on the farm. Either you pay the farm workers to do nothing for half of the year, or you just have to hire them for 6 months every year, which also means those workers need jobs for the other 6 months of the year. I don't know many other industries that would be fine with their workers only working half the year.
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On April 13 2022 14:19 Nick_54 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 14:13 Mohdoo wrote:On April 13 2022 13:27 Nick_54 wrote:On April 12 2022 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 12 2022 04:57 plasmidghost wrote: With the midterms happening in seven months, what can Biden do to improve seriously lagging poll numbers and enthusiasm? More importantly, what will he be likely to do? 1) Targeted tax on all billionaires 2) Substantial student loan reform 3) Don't touch abortion with a 10 ft pole 4) Don't touch immigration with a 10 ft pole 5) Executive order on something related to drug prices 6) Executive order on something related to child tax credit 7) Executive order on weed 8) Take obvious action in Ukraine such that the Ukraine war wraps up and the US had an obvious, large role in Russia losing 9) Gas prices average down to $3 10) Inflation not a big deal anymore through some mechanism If he got at least some of these things done I'd consider voting for him. If he just sits on his hands its not going to happen for me and I'm sure many others. The democratic party needs a reset, hopefully they do it voluntarily, if not it will happen anyway starting with the midterms. The bare minimum for me are the things he can do with executive order: student loans and weed. If he doesn't even do that, I completely give up and I have no incentive to vote for him. I already live in a safe blue state so my vote is entirely symbolic anyway. I won't vote for a single democrat, local or otherwise, if he fails to tackle student loans and weed. Agreed, especially since he promised both and has 100% authority to act on both through executive orders.
What exactly would Biden do on weed though? An EO would not make it legal to smoke or buy or sell weed in states where those things are illegal by state law.
As for student loans it's another highly questionable executive move, similar to Obama's DACA and Trump’s wall.
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On April 13 2022 15:07 Doc.Rivers wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2022 14:19 Nick_54 wrote:On April 13 2022 14:13 Mohdoo wrote:On April 13 2022 13:27 Nick_54 wrote:On April 12 2022 05:06 Mohdoo wrote:On April 12 2022 04:57 plasmidghost wrote: With the midterms happening in seven months, what can Biden do to improve seriously lagging poll numbers and enthusiasm? More importantly, what will he be likely to do? 1) Targeted tax on all billionaires 2) Substantial student loan reform 3) Don't touch abortion with a 10 ft pole 4) Don't touch immigration with a 10 ft pole 5) Executive order on something related to drug prices 6) Executive order on something related to child tax credit 7) Executive order on weed 8) Take obvious action in Ukraine such that the Ukraine war wraps up and the US had an obvious, large role in Russia losing 9) Gas prices average down to $3 10) Inflation not a big deal anymore through some mechanism If he got at least some of these things done I'd consider voting for him. If he just sits on his hands its not going to happen for me and I'm sure many others. The democratic party needs a reset, hopefully they do it voluntarily, if not it will happen anyway starting with the midterms. The bare minimum for me are the things he can do with executive order: student loans and weed. If he doesn't even do that, I completely give up and I have no incentive to vote for him. I already live in a safe blue state so my vote is entirely symbolic anyway. I won't vote for a single democrat, local or otherwise, if he fails to tackle student loans and weed. Agreed, especially since he promised both and has 100% authority to act on both through executive orders. What exactly would Biden do on weed though? An EO would not make it legal to smoke or buy or sell weed in states where those things are illegal by state law. As for student loans it's another highly questionable executive move, similar to Obama's DACA and Trump’s wall.
It is illegal to possess, trade or use Marijuana in the US because it is a Schedule 1 drug. That categorization is done by the FDA which is an executive agency. In theory Biden could direct the FDA to remove it from that list.
Of course then lawsuits would ensue, but anything Biden did was going to get challenged in court anyway.
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