|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On April 26 2021 10:52 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 09:54 plasmidghost wrote:I don't mean to distract from the policing discussion which has been incredibly insightful (and I feel like I need to get concrete thoughts on), but I wanted to offer some perspective on the US government's recent decision to keep an export ban of vaccine materials to India: I am a white convert to Sikhi. Almost all of its adherents are Punjabi Indian. Of the hundreds of Sikhs that attended my gurdwara (temple) before COVID, there were four of us that weren't Indian. Almost all of the elders of the sangat (community) there were first-generation immigrants to the US from Punjab. The elders showed me so much respect and insight to Sikhi and I can never thank them enough for what they did for me. The US government's decision to keep the ban hurts me deeply. So many people of my community and of the Indian diaspora throughout the US have many friends and family in India and they are currently suffering immensely underneath the malice and incompetence of Modi and his Hindutva ideology. The US has a chance to stop an actively spiraling out of control humanitarian crisis in India and I honestly believe that they should because it is morally evil to let people die when we can stop it. If that appeal to aid doesn't work, I think another argument that should be made is that the world is going to turn even more against the US, especially India, for keeping the vaccine to ourselves and not allowing its manufacture in the Global South. Hundreds of thousands of Indians could potentially die, and hundreds of thousands more throughout places like Africa and Latin America. They will not forget that. I know the justification for the decision was that we need to put Americans first, but we have reached a point rather abruptly where it appears that demand for the vaccine is dropping significantly and our supply is going to overtake it. Places like Texas are facing even worse drops in demand. I completely believe that the US government should've stepped in and open-sourced the vaccine ages ago and distributed it like we did with the polio vaccine. We have the potential to stop the deaths of so many people and we aren't. I will say again that I fully believe that the world won't forget that. 'x country first' is just a nonsense strategy, both from a humanitarian point of view as well as that of cynical pragmatism. 'Oh no, Covid is back... in pog form!' Who could possibly have predicted that when vast swathes of the world were left to be breeding grounds for potential new variants sans vaccines for ages? I mean it's not a given but it's certainly within the realms of possibility. It's a fucking global, pain in the arse pandemic for god's sake. Renumerate the various companies for their RnD work, hell throw a little extra on top and then make it open source. Quite how the behaviour of some of them hasn't spiralled into much more widespread anger is beyond me.
I'm sure we will regret this when we are on our 10th wave and social distancing is the only thing that works because the virus mutates faster than we can keep up with vaccines. Hell, there are already several variants that are resistant to the vaccines. It's a matter of when, not if, they become widespread in the US and you are back to square 1.
|
On April 26 2021 17:26 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 10:52 WombaT wrote:On April 26 2021 09:54 plasmidghost wrote:I don't mean to distract from the policing discussion which has been incredibly insightful (and I feel like I need to get concrete thoughts on), but I wanted to offer some perspective on the US government's recent decision to keep an export ban of vaccine materials to India: I am a white convert to Sikhi. Almost all of its adherents are Punjabi Indian. Of the hundreds of Sikhs that attended my gurdwara (temple) before COVID, there were four of us that weren't Indian. Almost all of the elders of the sangat (community) there were first-generation immigrants to the US from Punjab. The elders showed me so much respect and insight to Sikhi and I can never thank them enough for what they did for me. The US government's decision to keep the ban hurts me deeply. So many people of my community and of the Indian diaspora throughout the US have many friends and family in India and they are currently suffering immensely underneath the malice and incompetence of Modi and his Hindutva ideology. The US has a chance to stop an actively spiraling out of control humanitarian crisis in India and I honestly believe that they should because it is morally evil to let people die when we can stop it. If that appeal to aid doesn't work, I think another argument that should be made is that the world is going to turn even more against the US, especially India, for keeping the vaccine to ourselves and not allowing its manufacture in the Global South. Hundreds of thousands of Indians could potentially die, and hundreds of thousands more throughout places like Africa and Latin America. They will not forget that. I know the justification for the decision was that we need to put Americans first, but we have reached a point rather abruptly where it appears that demand for the vaccine is dropping significantly and our supply is going to overtake it. Places like Texas are facing even worse drops in demand. I completely believe that the US government should've stepped in and open-sourced the vaccine ages ago and distributed it like we did with the polio vaccine. We have the potential to stop the deaths of so many people and we aren't. I will say again that I fully believe that the world won't forget that. 'x country first' is just a nonsense strategy, both from a humanitarian point of view as well as that of cynical pragmatism. 'Oh no, Covid is back... in pog form!' Who could possibly have predicted that when vast swathes of the world were left to be breeding grounds for potential new variants sans vaccines for ages? I mean it's not a given but it's certainly within the realms of possibility. It's a fucking global, pain in the arse pandemic for god's sake. Renumerate the various companies for their RnD work, hell throw a little extra on top and then make it open source. Quite how the behaviour of some of them hasn't spiralled into much more widespread anger is beyond me. I'm sure we will regret this when we are on our 10th wave and social distancing is the only thing that works because the virus mutates faster than we can keep up with vaccines. Hell, there are already several variants that are resistant to the vaccines. It's a matter of when, not if, they become widespread in the US and you are back to square 1.
Square 1? What makes you say that?
It was a brand new virus, but around 30% (?) of us were already immune or did not get symptoms. The novelty advantage is already diminishing all over the world.
It is plausible that a square 1 mutation shows up, but I don't think it is likely. Our immune system has memory, and having dealt with similar viruses or vaccines previously helps a lot.
The Spanish flu was probably more dangerous for young people for this exact reason.
|
On April 26 2021 17:08 GreenHorizons wrote:
Few months ago it was pretty ubiquitously understood the US government lead by Trump failed disastrously leading to hundreds of thousands of unnecessary dead Americans and that the insurrection/Trump jeopardized American democracy as we know it.
Reminds me of the "Russia is making Black people think the US is racist" trope from the 60's and second half of the 2010's.
The US is leading the effort to protect profits for big pharma at the direct cost of countless lives around the global south and that's bad no matter who points it out.
those are problems no doubt, very different ones and not easily solved. and you won't find many that will disagree with you here.
just ask yourself if you help your cause, namely pointing out racism in the US and big pharma etc... if you join in the same chorus as a country that puts its "brownest" people in camps just because of their religion - and "anti terror".
and another that does not even know what black people are as there are basically none in Russia. just read about gay people and their treatment there. I'd wager treatment of other minorities is hardly any better.
Lenin had a name for people being used under false pretenses, and without understanding the whole devious point. don't be that.
I cannot stress that enoug. they are not your ally. and maybe even whole swaths of the US are not your ally too as we too often and painfully experience in the stories shared and read, and discussed in this thread. but here is a chance for change, and actual allies even if there are not many so far - but they are also growing, and growing fast if you look at where young people are headed in terms of economic policy and racial divide etc...
dissent is possible and opens up possibilities in our societies. dissent in actual authoritarian countries is seen as a danger. just ask Mr. Navalny and Mr. Putin. one is actually afraid of the other.
|
I'm not sure what you're suggesting but there's no "maybe" about whether large swaths of the US are not my ally in reference to the authoritarian police brutality regularly experienced by Black (and Indigenous) people('s) in the US for decades.
Some of the most horrific police brutality happens in Democrat controlled states, under Democrat mayors and city councils. On top of that ~25% of the US (almost half of Republicans) thinks the jury got Chauvin's conviction wrong.
There's a consistent thread from genocidal colonization, through slavery, through reconstruction, through Jim Crow, to mass incarceration, to Blue Lives Matter that demonstrates a consistent commitment by some people in the US to supporting/justifying/making excuses for authoritarian oppression as long as it is aimed at the "right" people.
Same thread weaves through US foreign policy.
|
you are not wrong. but also not helping yourself by being too blazé with the facts. slavery and genocides is not something "whites" invented. it's a human thing unfortunately.
there were people being slaughtered, subjugated and oppressed in Africa (or Pangaea) before a "white" man ever set foot there. or on the Asian continent. and by god I am not trying to minimize anything, just giving perspective.
I went to Mauthausen and Auschwitz as you truly have to see what happened in your country's history to "get" it.
in this long line the US definitely is the last/latest example(slavery, to BLM) and among the most effective yeah, an empire is not something that just happened and on the backs of slaves you can be highly profitable.
but the dams are breaking and progress in reach can't you see? the racists are getting older and less in general, the more progressive ones are getting voted into power. more people are at long last starting get it. the Chauvin verdict as another example. still too little overally of course, but progress.
and I come back to Gramps Biden, he might have been everything else in the last 100 years of his career, but the way he is governing is more progressive than any President ever talked on the campaign trail.
and I don't have a horse in this race, I don't care about D or R. though I would miss making fun of Rs worst traits, they are just naturally good subjects of ridicule. you gave the answer yourself. a quarter does not like the Chauvin verdict. as I see it, that is quite the minority, no? 
the past is nice to look back to and learn, but not healthy to live in. move on.
//typos
|
On April 26 2021 20:00 Doublemint wrote:you are not wrong. but also not helping yourself by being too blazé with the facts. slavery and genocides is not something "whites" invented. it's a human thing unfortunately. there were people being slaughtered, subjugated and oppressed in Africa (or Pangaea) before a "white" man ever set foot there. or on the Asian continent. and by god I am not trying to minimize anything, just giving perspective. I went to Mauthausen and Auschwitz as you truly have to see what happened in your country's history to "get" it. in this long line the US definitely is the last/latest example(slavery, to BLM) and among the most effective yeah, an empire is not something that just happened and on the backs of slaves you can be highly profitable. but the damns are breaking and progress in reach can't you see? the racists are getting older and less in general, the more progressive ones are getting voted into power. more people are at long last starting get it. the Chauvin verdict as another example. still too little overally of course, but progress. and I come back to Gramps Biden, he might have been everything else in the last 100 years of his career, but the way he is governing is more progressive than any President ever talked on the campaign trail. and I don't have a horse in this race, I don't care about D or R. though I would miss making fun of Rs worst traits, they are just naturally good subjects of ridicule. you gave the answer yourself. a quarter does not like the Chauvin verdict. as I see it, that is quite the minority, no? the past is nice to look back to and learn, but not healthy to live in. move on.
you're basically saying that he shouldn't hurt the poor white people's feelings?
we've been through this over and over again in the thread and have yet to move any inch closer to coming to a solution, I feel.
I mean, sometimes the positions are so far apart, that the middle ground isn't tenable for those oppressed.
|
yes. I am basically known as the resident white pride guy and he should stop hurting my race's feelings. discussions on the internet are fun.
// the move on part was more specifically for GH. not in general. he should of course NEVER stop fighting for making the American dream his personal dream. racist fucks be damned.
|
On April 26 2021 17:26 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 10:52 WombaT wrote:On April 26 2021 09:54 plasmidghost wrote:I don't mean to distract from the policing discussion which has been incredibly insightful (and I feel like I need to get concrete thoughts on), but I wanted to offer some perspective on the US government's recent decision to keep an export ban of vaccine materials to India: I am a white convert to Sikhi. Almost all of its adherents are Punjabi Indian. Of the hundreds of Sikhs that attended my gurdwara (temple) before COVID, there were four of us that weren't Indian. Almost all of the elders of the sangat (community) there were first-generation immigrants to the US from Punjab. The elders showed me so much respect and insight to Sikhi and I can never thank them enough for what they did for me. The US government's decision to keep the ban hurts me deeply. So many people of my community and of the Indian diaspora throughout the US have many friends and family in India and they are currently suffering immensely underneath the malice and incompetence of Modi and his Hindutva ideology. The US has a chance to stop an actively spiraling out of control humanitarian crisis in India and I honestly believe that they should because it is morally evil to let people die when we can stop it. If that appeal to aid doesn't work, I think another argument that should be made is that the world is going to turn even more against the US, especially India, for keeping the vaccine to ourselves and not allowing its manufacture in the Global South. Hundreds of thousands of Indians could potentially die, and hundreds of thousands more throughout places like Africa and Latin America. They will not forget that. I know the justification for the decision was that we need to put Americans first, but we have reached a point rather abruptly where it appears that demand for the vaccine is dropping significantly and our supply is going to overtake it. Places like Texas are facing even worse drops in demand. I completely believe that the US government should've stepped in and open-sourced the vaccine ages ago and distributed it like we did with the polio vaccine. We have the potential to stop the deaths of so many people and we aren't. I will say again that I fully believe that the world won't forget that. 'x country first' is just a nonsense strategy, both from a humanitarian point of view as well as that of cynical pragmatism. 'Oh no, Covid is back... in pog form!' Who could possibly have predicted that when vast swathes of the world were left to be breeding grounds for potential new variants sans vaccines for ages? I mean it's not a given but it's certainly within the realms of possibility. It's a fucking global, pain in the arse pandemic for god's sake. Renumerate the various companies for their RnD work, hell throw a little extra on top and then make it open source. Quite how the behaviour of some of them hasn't spiralled into much more widespread anger is beyond me. I'm sure we will regret this when we are on our 10th wave and social distancing is the only thing that works because the virus mutates faster than we can keep up with vaccines. Hell, there are already several variants that are resistant to the vaccines. It's a matter of when, not if, they become widespread in the US and you are back to square 1.
There is no square one anymore.
Even my state government, that at the time of lockdown I felt was doing a good job, has been a disappointment. They effectively gave up on trying. I hear of places that have gone into multiple lockdowns to prevent surges, but over the winter my county blasted close to 4 times the peak during lockdown and effectively nothing was done. It *briefly* went under that mark in April and then shot up to around twice that amount until a recent slide to 150% of that mark in the last 5 days. What was done? Schools went online only for two weeks and outdoor dining was canceled for a bit.
I feel like at this point it will take a catastrophe of an insane lethal variant that makes the economic damage worse than the shutdown before square one is even put back on the table.
|
|
|
Northern Ireland25334 Posts
On April 26 2021 16:30 Doublemint wrote:no no, I agree absolutely with you here LL. US actions in this case make disinfo a piece of cake - where in some cases you don't even need to alter too much of what is already going on  let me give you another example. in China's state media they portray "our" struggling with the Virus - and the rich West is struggling no doubt - as "the end of our way of life and and the clear sign and even proof of the superiority of theirs". ergo in Commie China speak we are not just on the ropes, but our society is breaking down. they blend together the pictures of Jan/06. and say that is because of Covid and that Democracy and human rights are "the wrong way" anyway and lead to such disasters. in the same breath they lump in EU democracies. just be also aware of this, and for some reason they don't mention it in their little promo clips all over the airwaves and data streams: local authorities(which are more often than not party scycophants&thugs) being able to weld your door shut, no appeal. no questions no answers... just on the mere suspicion that you have the virus. in "highly effective China". and they do this for whole blocks or cities if necessary. or our struggling with for the most part wearing masks and washing hands - couple feet apart etc... maybe even lockdowns if the health care system is under too much stress... and stupid people. so freedom. people can decide for themselves I reckon. sorry for the rant at the end, I just read it too often here and elsewhere from people who should know better. how we are totally failing and they are "winning".
It’s a bit of a bogus binary for sure.
You can have both freedom and a sense of collective social responsibility. There is an appreciable difference between a conception of individualist freedom divorced from societal responsibilities, and cultures where it’s understood that individual freedoms are built upon wider societal cooperative frameworks.
I’ll leave it up to folks to decide where those lines are drawn in various Western countries.
Yes, that said I don’t blame individuals particularly, or their adherence or not in aggregate for many failings, if the overall structure’s demands are a big part of problems. One’s individual freedoms are rather limited if the options are to go out and work or starve, regardless of system. Scandalous cronyism and incompetence due to commercial considerations likewise have little to do with society’s valuation on individual freedoms or the alternative lack thereof
|
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 26 2021 18:08 Doublemint wrote:
Lenin had a name for people being used under false pretenses, and without understanding the whole devious point. don't be that.
There's also a word for people who, under false pretenses, ask the question of "what about?" in regards to some foreign devil or other in order to distract from the very real problems in one's own country. "Yes things are bad - but Russia and China are murderous dictatorships!" the saying goes. Then a caricature of the latter countries is propped up to hide the fact that the Western countries being propped up as a paragon of virtue have some serious moral failings of their own. The question of "which is worse/better really?" is often glossed over because few people have the knowledge or inclination to provide nuance to such a point. But it's safe to say that people who uncritically bash those other countries without really evaluating the reality of what life is like there are just lapping up propaganda used to hide the ugly nature of the problems in the Western world. The stagnating economic situation that only serves the wealthy is a good place to start looking if you need some concrete evidence that the Chinese position isn't entirely baseless.
On April 26 2021 20:00 Doublemint wrote: you gave the answer yourself. a quarter does not like the Chauvin verdict. as I see it, that is quite the minority, no?
A quarter of the country looked at an obvious murder-by-police, a case so cut and dry that a large swath of people have no sympathy for the "Black Lives Matter" movement look at this and see it as a bridge too far, and thought that a conviction of the policeman responsible was the wrong decision... and you see that as a good thing?
|
On April 26 2021 05:33 Simberto wrote:
Regarding your first point, i generally like the idea of well-being checks, but i don't see why police should be the people doing those. Police are mostly trained to deal with enforcing the law. Just checking up on someone should be something social workers who are actually trained to handle complicated personal crisises do, and not the police.
As far as I know, social workers don't work 24/7. A wellness check is when someone you know pulls in her driveway at 1am when you're on the phone with her and the line cuts off and you want to see if she's okay before it's too late. Have you seen the one where (two?) cops go with the woman on the domestic call to her house, and it's empty, and they're talking, and the guy shows up and comes in the door gun blazing? Social workers and that's a funeral for 3 people.
The two, however, are not mutually exclusive. Though I'm not one to sing the praises of social workers either at present, I can understand the idea of wanting them to be useful.
On April 26 2021 05:33 Simberto wrote:
And yes, the fact that your life is basically over once you get into the claws of the US "justice" system is probably part of the reason why people shoot at cops. In most other nations, shooting at cops is not a rational response. If you do that, you face life in prison, and probably have a hard time ever getting release. If you don't, you face some reasonable jail time and get chances to reintegrate into society. But your life isn't over.
In the US, if you get caught by cops, you might as well try to shoot them. Because if they catch you, you probably end up with life in some hell prison anyways. And even if not, you will never be able to reintegrate into society, because you will forever be branded as a felon.
Again it seems to me putting the criminal before the horse here. Your life isn't going to get flipped upside down over a traffic stop. The problem for these guys comes in because a traffic stop involves checking your ID and looking you up, and these people who take shots are people who have active warrants already for assault, attempted murder, selling drugs, etc. (or the Vietnam vet having a flashback one I mentioned before). They were already felons. Their existence on the street puts citizens and police at risk and being puzzled by police's use of force without addressing why in general it's part of what they need and do, is wanting.
Countries that have "reasonable jail time" basically don't suffer the unreasonable crime US cities do.
|
|
|
On April 26 2021 20:11 Doublemint wrote:
yes. I am basically known as the resident white pride guy and he should stop hurting my race's feelings. discussions on the internet are fun.
// the move on part was more specifically for GH. not in general. he should of course NEVER stop fighting for making the American dream his personal dream. racist fucks be damned.
the colour of your skin has no relevance for whatever you write.
you wrote that he's going too far. which is a thing many people in power have said before, when vacation days were demandend, safety standards were demanded, a 6 then 5 day work week was demanded and finally granted.
The call for equality of the people is still being denied as "going too quickly", "going too far".
Which is a ridiculous thing to say when Black people are being treated as second or third class citizen now, as they were 40, 50, 60 years ago.
And it's undeniably so, that much more progress than actually happened was demanded back in the 50s and even before - maybe GH can point you to a book or two if you're really interested.
I would liken the situation if we still had the former Nazi Reich judges presiding over our cases - as they did in the early years of the country that would become this Germany. We would have every right, even the obligation to demand that ALL of the Nazi collaborateur judges be remove immediately, not maybe a token one, two, even half. All of them.
Same goes for Black people demanding equality. Not just a bit, for the rich ones, that play popular actors in movies or are good sports personalities. Everyone.
|
Let me preface my response by saying that I wasn't aware that about 50 police officers lose their lives doing their jobs every year at the hands of armed civilians. I did not realise it was that bad, and probably explains why they are so quick to eliminate the threat as they probably feel constantly under attack.
On April 26 2021 05:24 oBlade wrote:
You keep saying "routine traffic stop." It's not routine once they open fire. The two guys we were talking about who got shot after opening fire on the police officer, why did they do that? Because they had warrants out. There are not only so many criminals around, there are so many currently wanted criminals that pulling people over randomly for expired plates in the course of a day, can end up with you pulling over extremely dangerous people without knowing it. Why shoot at cops? Because you don't want to go to jail. Why not flee? Because a high speed chase is extremely stacked against you, whereas pretending to comply until you murder the cop and drive away gives you a way out. I saw the video of someone get pulled over for a tinted window machinegun the officer.
I did, however, want to argue this point. The data shows that the majority of police shootings started with the police shooting, not the suspect. In fact, in only about a quarter of cases the suspect fired their gun, according to this study that looked at all police killings in 2015 onlinelibrary.wiley.com.
The study is quite nice and includes a lot of data. I extracted the data from the paper so you can see it here:
For 10% of the shootings, the suspect was completely unarmed which is kind of crazy. Mostly, people got killed for brandishing their gun/knife and attacking with non-gun weapons. 11 were shot for trying to run away, and 7 people were shot accidentally in 2015, which is a lot in my opinion.
Clearly the issue is more with the whole justice system. I do take your point that criminals in the US seem to have less to lose than those in other western democracies, which definitely makes them more likely to shoot at police which exacerbates the problem.
In general, my thoughts are that crime is too widespread. The more dangerous it is for police on a regular basis, and the more they end up in dangerous situations, naturally the more they need training and equipment and tools that are suited for those situations and may misapply those. It increases the variance of everything. And the remedies for crime are education to prepare people for jobs, a strong economy to give them those jobs, arresting criminals, drug interdiction, family, and community.
I agree with most of this, but I still think a bit more emphasis on de-escalation before the situation gets to the pulling out weapons stage would not be amiss.
|
What i find the most staggering at this table is that 25% of people "showed signs of Mental Ilness". WTF?! I mean does that include erratic behavior due to drugs/alcohol or not?
|
26% of the US is estimated to have some sort of mental illness. So it's statistically right in line with estimates.
18% of the US has an anxiety disorder and 9.8% depression (most of these are going to overlap). It's probably <5% for illnesses that routinely present in a way that could result in a wellness check (bipolar/schizophrenic at 1-2% each and so on).
Note that it's not like they shot them for that (in most cases), it's not exactly something they could just eyeball. Probably a post-shooting report noted they had a history of mental illness and tried to use it as an excuse for shooting them - ie, "they were crazy, you couldn't even see the whites of their eyes!" (as they were running away and shot 24 times in the back).
|
|
|
god i hope the defense attorneys description of events is inaccurate. legitimately just sounds like an execution. ‘sheriffs car blocks Brown in the driveway and police come up shooting’ is fucked.
given the pre emptive state of emergency i’m feeling like it’s probably not.
eh on second thought i can see a case being made that a state of emergency might be needed even in the case that justification (insofar as it is defined legally) is questionable. it’s starting to make me sick to even use the word justify in police murders.
|
United States10501 Posts
On April 27 2021 01:50 EnDeR_ wrote:Let me preface my response by saying that I wasn't aware that about 50 police officers lose their lives doing their jobs every year at the hands of armed civilians. I did not realise it was that bad, and probably explains why they are so quick to eliminate the threat as they probably feel constantly under attack. Show nested quote +On April 26 2021 05:24 oBlade wrote:
You keep saying "routine traffic stop." It's not routine once they open fire. The two guys we were talking about who got shot after opening fire on the police officer, why did they do that? Because they had warrants out. There are not only so many criminals around, there are so many currently wanted criminals that pulling people over randomly for expired plates in the course of a day, can end up with you pulling over extremely dangerous people without knowing it. Why shoot at cops? Because you don't want to go to jail. Why not flee? Because a high speed chase is extremely stacked against you, whereas pretending to comply until you murder the cop and drive away gives you a way out. I saw the video of someone get pulled over for a tinted window machinegun the officer. I did, however, want to argue this point. The data shows that the majority of police shootings started with the police shooting, not the suspect. In fact, in only about a quarter of cases the suspect fired their gun, according to this study that looked at all police killings in 2015 onlinelibrary.wiley.com. The study is quite nice and includes a lot of data. I extracted the data from the paper so you can see it here: For 10% of the shootings, the suspect was completely unarmed which is kind of crazy. Mostly, people got killed for brandishing their gun/knife and attacking with non-gun weapons. 11 were shot for trying to run away, and 7 people were shot accidentally in 2015, which is a lot in my opinion. Clearly the issue is more with the whole justice system. I do take your point that criminals in the US seem to have less to lose than those in other western democracies, which definitely makes them more likely to shoot at police which exacerbates the problem. Show nested quote +
In general, my thoughts are that crime is too widespread. The more dangerous it is for police on a regular basis, and the more they end up in dangerous situations, naturally the more they need training and equipment and tools that are suited for those situations and may misapply those. It increases the variance of everything. And the remedies for crime are education to prepare people for jobs, a strong economy to give them those jobs, arresting criminals, drug interdiction, family, and community.
I agree with most of this, but I still think a bit more emphasis on de-escalation before the situation gets to the pulling out weapons stage would not be amiss.
At the end of the day, the narrative that people are getting shot for routine traffic stops while complying with police is just bullshit. Not to say that it absolutely never happens (see: Philando Castille) but it's obviously the rarest example that gets presented as the status quo. It's like Pro-lifers that make an argument against abortion because of late-term abortions when they represent 1% of all abortions. It's nauseating hearing all these uber wealthy celebrities and politicians saying "I have to wonder every day if my child is going to come home tonight or if they are going to be killed by the police." Really? Do their children not know you shouldn't pulled out guns/knives and attack police? Or do they just irrationally believe that their child is likely to be the 1 in a million case that gets killed like Philando Castille?
I'm kind of surprised you didn't realize how rough it was for police in the US. Your own numbers show that multiple times a day police are being shot at, having a gun pulled on them, being attacked with knives, etc. Eri is basically the only person in this entire thread that when making a comparison between the US and a country like Norway will also acknowledge that Norway has a lot less violent crime than the US. Everyone else just conveniently neglects to mention that. Comparing the US which has a very weak social safety net to Norway and chalking up the difference in police shootings entirely to the behavior of the police is either ignorant or disingenuous. The best way to reduce police shootings is to reduce poverty, reduce desperation in people, reduce untreated mental illness, etc. But those things cost money.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](https://i.ibb.co/yfZdvPB/table.png)
