EPTJust mentioning as similar situations do happen elsewhere, and they can even have the same result as in the US.
https://newsbeezer.com/norwayeng/he-struggled-a-lot-but-that-changed-a-few-years-ago-vg/
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3190
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Slydie
1900 Posts
Just mentioning as similar situations do happen elsewhere, and they can even have the same result as in the US. https://newsbeezer.com/norwayeng/he-struggled-a-lot-but-that-changed-a-few-years-ago-vg/ | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43834 Posts
On April 26 2021 00:36 Slydie wrote: The investigation of a kind of comparable police shooting in Norway just concluded: no criminal offense found. It was a house call, where the police had to assist in bringing in an unstable person, and he kept attacking with a knife after being hit by pepperspray. He was shot 4 times and died. The defense attorney was disappointed, of course, and this might not be the end of it. I don't expect anyone marching in the streets, though,... Just mentioning as similar situations do happen elsewhere, and they can even have the same result as in the US. https://newsbeezer.com/norwayeng/he-struggled-a-lot-but-that-changed-a-few-years-ago-vg/ Citing Norway is definitely not a good example of these kinds of things happening elsewhere, because you seem to be implying some sort of regularity or the norm here. There's no comparison to be made; the police have killed 4 people - period - between 2002 and 2016 in Norway, and even after 2016, Norway is notoriously not like the United States in this regard. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21390 Posts
On April 26 2021 00:43 JimmiC wrote: Exactly, they tried to avoid killing him but non-lethal methods were not working. The big difference being non lethal steps were takin first. That happens and is a point where lethal force can be appropriate. The problem is that to often non-lethal force is not tried in the US. And even if lethal force is appropriate in specific situations you can't blame people complaining about every case when it goes wrong so often. | ||
KwarK
United States42021 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Simberto
Germany11342 Posts
What a good reason to shoot someone. He might shoot himself if you don't stop him! | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On April 26 2021 01:58 KwarK wrote: It's the difference between using lethal force as the last resort and the first choice. this. ultima ratio vs. fear for life featuring qualified immunity. | ||
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Slydie
1900 Posts
On April 26 2021 01:01 Gorsameth wrote: Exactly, they tried to avoid killing him but non-lethal methods were not working. That happens and is a point where lethal force can be appropriate. The problem is that to often non-lethal force is not tried in the US. And even if lethal force is appropriate in specific situations you can't blame people complaining about every case when it goes wrong so often. I actually heard the interview with the attourney representing the victim´s family, and he was very upset about the result of the investigation. The question was exactly the same as in this thread "was it really necessary and to kill him, and could it have been avoided"? You will never find exact mirror cases, but I think there are more similarities than differences, even though the use of pepper spray first counts in favor of the shooting officer. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7814 Posts
I trust the norwegian police above basically any other in the world, but that’s not great. | ||
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oBlade
United States5303 Posts
On April 25 2021 18:11 EnDeR_ wrote: No, I actually did mean 'remit', I didn't realise it was a British expression. It just means what should be the tasks or areas of activity for a given job. For instance, do you think police should be responding to 'well-being checks'? That was how one of the encounters on the list started. On your first point I think we are going to have to agree to disagree, because I do think that any killing by a government agency is regrettable and we should do everything we can to reduce the number of incidents where this happens. I do understand that this sometimes cannot be avoided and I'm not going to quibble with your point, i.e. if someone starts shooting at the police, the police should definitely be shooting back. Currently, police are trained to escalate any potentially threatening situation, i.e. police are taught to never back off and never give up and if they identify a threat, they're trained to eliminate it as effectively and as safely as possible. Do you think this approach is appropriate for all police officers and for all types of encounters? I certainly think it's appropriate if law enforcement is responding to a violent crime situation, like an armed robbery, but should this also be the approach in a routine traffic stop? Yes, I like well-being checks. I think you're speaking generally based on what you want to be true, that police have no capability to deescalate. You can find the opposite, it's just not sensationalized. You can also find people getting shot when the officer thought they had a taser. You can find the guy who caught on fire when they tasered him in the car also. Those are easy to find because of our perceptual bias. Didn't shootings increase with the adoption of bodycams, because police could show when they were justified more easily, if I remember? You keep saying "routine traffic stop." It's not routine once they open fire. The two guys we were talking about who got shot after opening fire on the police officer, why did they do that? Because they had warrants out. There are not only so many criminals around, there are so many currently wanted criminals that pulling people over randomly for expired plates in the course of a day, can end up with you pulling over extremely dangerous people without knowing it. Why shoot at cops? Because you don't want to go to jail. Why not flee? Because a high speed chase is extremely stacked against you, whereas pretending to comply until you murder the cop and drive away gives you a way out. I saw the video of someone get pulled over for a tinted window machinegun the officer. On April 25 2021 18:11 EnDeR_ wrote: When you say this, you are making the assumption that all traffic stops that lead to police shootings involve violent criminals. I think you know that this is not actually the case, there are dozens of examples of regular people ending up in a police shooting after a routine traffic stop. In addition, how many encounters do you think resemble the example of Lt. Nazario? Do you think this is a 'bad apples' situation, or do you think this is a widespread problem? If you think I know it's not the case, your simultaneous postulation that I'm assuming something about ALL traffic stop shootings would seem to indicate a misinterpretation on your part. Millions of traffic stops also don't end in shootings, mostly bad apples I'd wager. The reason is that the bigger an apple is, it's more difficult for it to sustain being bad without severe pushback. One cop? Okay give him desk duty for 6 months and put him back on the beat because his pension until he roughs up someone else. One department? Doesn't slide under the rug as easy. On April 25 2021 18:11 EnDeR_ wrote: I don't understand this point. Police can't be reformed because they're not a single organisation? Could you please elaborate? The point is asking me if "we" need to reform "the police" is so vague as to be without substance. On April 25 2021 18:11 EnDeR_ wrote: I think we both agree that there is a culture of bad practice across many branches of law enforcement. Would you agree that this should provide motivation for widespread reform? I am more interested in surgical reform as the problems with crime, police, and criminal justice can be so different in different places. On April 25 2021 18:11 EnDeR_ wrote: Policing needs to be carried out at all levels, i.e. you need local and state law enforcement, but you also need a police agency that can act at the federal level or you'd end up with silly situations where a criminal moves to a different state and are therefore able to escape the consequences of their actions. What would be the ideal solution in your opinion? I'm not attacking the existence of federal law enforcement, rather disputing the assumption that the federal government is an instrument capable of delivering the reform we might like to imagine. And "the solution" is already the wrong word. This will sound nitpicky but a "solution" evokes a sense of finality, and also assumes that a problem can be solved (This is not to be construed that I'm against doing good things because it's impossible to be perfect). In general, my thoughts are that crime is too widespread. The more dangerous it is for police on a regular basis, and the more they end up in dangerous situations, naturally the more they need training and equipment and tools that are suited for those situations and may misapply those. It increases the variance of everything. And the remedies for crime are education to prepare people for jobs, a strong economy to give them those jobs, arresting criminals, drug interdiction, family, and community. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11342 Posts
And yes, the fact that your life is basically over once you get into the claws of the US "justice" system is probably part of the reason why people shoot at cops. In most other nations, shooting at cops is not a rational response. If you do that, you face life in prison, and probably have a hard time ever getting release. If you don't, you face some reasonable jail time and get chances to reintegrate into society. But your life isn't over. In the US, if you get caught by cops, you might as well try to shoot them. Because if they catch you, you probably end up with life in some hell prison anyways. And even if not, you will never be able to reintegrate into society, because you will forever be branded as a felon. | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
I am a white convert to Sikhi. Almost all of its adherents are Punjabi Indian. Of the hundreds of Sikhs that attended my gurdwara (temple) before COVID, there were four of us that weren't Indian. Almost all of the elders of the sangat (community) there were first-generation immigrants to the US from Punjab. The elders showed me so much respect and insight to Sikhi and I can never thank them enough for what they did for me. The US government's decision to keep the ban hurts me deeply. So many people of my community and of the Indian diaspora throughout the US have many friends and family in India and they are currently suffering immensely underneath the malice and incompetence of Modi and his Hindutva ideology. The US has a chance to stop an actively spiraling out of control humanitarian crisis in India and I honestly believe that they should because it is morally evil to let people die when we can stop it. If that appeal to aid doesn't work, I think another argument that should be made is that the world is going to turn even more against the US, especially India, for keeping the vaccine to ourselves and not allowing its manufacture in the Global South. Hundreds of thousands of Indians could potentially die, and hundreds of thousands more throughout places like Africa and Latin America. They will not forget that. I know the justification for the decision was that we need to put Americans first, but we have reached a point rather abruptly where it appears that demand for the vaccine is dropping significantly and our supply is going to overtake it. Places like Texas are facing even worse drops in demand. I completely believe that the US government should've stepped in and open-sourced the vaccine ages ago and distributed it like we did with the polio vaccine. We have the potential to stop the deaths of so many people and we aren't. I will say again that I fully believe that the world won't forget that. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23950 Posts
On April 26 2021 09:54 plasmidghost wrote: I don't mean to distract from the policing discussion which has been incredibly insightful (and I feel like I need to get concrete thoughts on), but I wanted to offer some perspective on the US government's recent decision to keep an export ban of vaccine materials to India: I am a white convert to Sikhi. Almost all of its adherents are Punjabi Indian. Of the hundreds of Sikhs that attended my gurdwara (temple) before COVID, there were four of us that weren't Indian. Almost all of the elders of the sangat (community) there were first-generation immigrants to the US from Punjab. The elders showed me so much respect and insight to Sikhi and I can never thank them enough for what they did for me. The US government's decision to keep the ban hurts me deeply. So many people of my community and of the Indian diaspora throughout the US have many friends and family in India and they are currently suffering immensely underneath the malice and incompetence of Modi and his Hindutva ideology. The US has a chance to stop an actively spiraling out of control humanitarian crisis in India and I honestly believe that they should because it is morally evil to let people die when we can stop it. If that appeal to aid doesn't work, I think another argument that should be made is that the world is going to turn even more against the US, especially India, for keeping the vaccine to ourselves and not allowing its manufacture in the Global South. Hundreds of thousands of Indians could potentially die, and hundreds of thousands more throughout places like Africa and Latin America. They will not forget that. I know the justification for the decision was that we need to put Americans first, but we have reached a point rather abruptly where it appears that demand for the vaccine is dropping significantly and our supply is going to overtake it. Places like Texas are facing even worse drops in demand. I completely believe that the US government should've stepped in and open-sourced the vaccine ages ago and distributed it like we did with the polio vaccine. We have the potential to stop the deaths of so many people and we aren't. I will say again that I fully believe that the world won't forget that. 'x country first' is just a nonsense strategy, both from a humanitarian point of view as well as that of cynical pragmatism. 'Oh no, Covid is back... in pog form!' Who could possibly have predicted that when vast swathes of the world were left to be breeding grounds for potential new variants sans vaccines for ages? I mean it's not a given but it's certainly within the realms of possibility. It's a fucking global, pain in the arse pandemic for god's sake. Renumerate the various companies for their RnD work, hell throw a little extra on top and then make it open source. Quite how the behaviour of some of them hasn't spiralled into much more widespread anger is beyond me. | ||
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plasmidghost
Belgium16168 Posts
On April 26 2021 10:52 WombaT wrote: 'x country first' is just a nonsense strategy, both from a humanitarian point of view as well as that of cynical pragmatism. 'Oh no, Covid is back... in pog form!' Who could possibly have predicted that when vast swathes of the world were left to be breeding grounds for potential new variants sans vaccines for ages? I mean it's not a given but it's certainly within the realms of possibility. It's a fucking global, pain in the arse pandemic for god's sake. Renumerate the various companies for their RnD work, hell throw a little extra on top and then make it open source. Quite how the behaviour of some of them hasn't spiralled into much more widespread anger is beyond me. Exactly. Prioritizing the profits of J&J, Pfizer, and Moderna ahead of actual human lives is just horrendous. For more of a pragmatic reasoning, a 2019 Pew Research poll showed that 21% of Indians viewed the US as their best ally, the most of any country, with Russia coming in second at 15%. I seriously believe that these numbers are going to get much worse for the US. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
there is a very good chance that now that shit hits the fan in poorer countries and people are getting more and more aware how the "success" in the vaccinations in countries like the US and the UK is created at other's expense - you pay higher prices you jump the queue - that others will notice as well. the situation gets even more aggravated by the mind blowing decision of the US to not share doses. From AZ. which no one even wants in the US in the first place. those others that will notice for sure are China or Russia, masters of disinfo and very much interested in "evening the odds" so to speak. bringing western hegemony down, or at least lowering it so they can further their own goals easier. and they are highly effective with their Vaccine diplomacy. get ready for FB/twitter/whatsapp/telegram/signal... disinfo once they crafted the message they perceive to do the most damage. // that is the latest I found. you need a subscription unfortunately... https://www.economist.com/united-states/2021/04/25/america-has-locked-up-supplies-of-covid-vaccines-that-it-does-not-need | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On April 26 2021 14:59 Doublemint wrote: those others that will notice for sure are China or Russia, masters of disinfo and very much interested in "evening the odds" so to speak. bringing western hegemony down, or at least lowering it so they can further their own goals easier. and they are highly effective with their Vaccine diplomacy. get ready for FB/twitter/whatsapp/telegram/signal... disinfo once they crafted the message they perceive to do the most damage. Truly, one of the most effective forms of Russian/Chinese disinformation is when poorer countries get nothing of the western vaccines beyond some AstraZeneca table scraps, but are actually able to purchase and receive doses of Sputnik or Sinovac. That certainly sends a powerful diplomatic message, yes indeed. If it's propaganda, it sure seems to be backed by action in a big and important way. Taking action that will save many lives in the third world should be commended, not somehow spun into "this is bad for America / the West!" because the US rightfully doesn't get credit for what it didn't do. | ||
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Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
 let me give you another example. in China's state media they portray "our" struggling with the Virus - and the rich West is struggling no doubt - as "the end of our way of life and and the clear sign and even proof of the superiority of theirs". ergo in Commie China speak we are not just on the ropes, but our society is breaking down. they blend together the pictures of Jan/06. and say that is because of Covid and that Democracy and human rights are "the wrong way" anyway and lead to such disasters. in the same breath they lump in EU democracies. just be also aware of this, and for some reason they don't mention it in their little promo clips all over the airwaves and data streams: local authorities(which are more often than not party scycophants&thugs) being able to weld your door shut, no appeal. no questions no answers... just on the mere suspicion that you have the virus. in "highly effective China". and they do this for whole blocks or cities if necessary. or our struggling with for the most part wearing masks and washing hands - couple feet apart etc... maybe even lockdowns if the health care system is under too much stress... and stupid people. so freedom. people can decide for themselves I reckon. sorry for the rant at the end, I just read it too often here and elsewhere from people who should know better. how we are totally failing and they are "winning". | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States22741 Posts
Reminds me of the "Russia is making Black people think the US is racist" trope from the 60's and second half of the 2010's. The US is leading the effort to protect profits for big pharma at the direct cost of countless lives around the global south and that's bad no matter who points it out. | ||
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