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On April 22 2021 18:33 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 14:44 m4ini wrote:I'm confused here. Yeah, the cop responded awfully (too) quick with lethal force, but are we ignoring the fact that this could've also been prevented by simply not being an asshole and maybe not threatening an officer with a deadly weapon? In regards to "in other countries that doesn't happen".. + Show Spoiler +That's what german police does if you go at them with a knife. Note that he also tried pepper spraying the guy, which for insane people, drugged people or incredibly angry people has roughly the same effect as a taser. None. It appears to be an attempt at suicide by cop. The guy is even shouting "shoot me" or "kill me" or something like that. But even then, how cowardly do you have to be to just blast a guy with a 3" inch blade that takes 2 baby steps towards you when you can probably very easily retreat and attempt to de-escalate the situation?
But retreating means you no longer are the strong, manly man. Never retreat, never surrender! Always use maximum force!
Or something like that.
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On April 22 2021 13:11 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 11:10 WombaT wrote:On April 22 2021 10:09 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 08:41 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:46 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:45 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:39 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:
[quote]
'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. Considering 58% of police shootings took place after police responded to a nonviolent incident, yeah, I'm sure there are an abundance of examples out there. https://www.axios.com/police-killings-2020-non-violent-incidents-dd3035a9-3182-43b9-9742-1a5f8786ca6c.html So no examples to share? As you said, should be an abundance from what you believe, so it probably would have taken less time than to pull up a unrelated link. "Responding to a non-violent incident" literally means nothing, if you think this stuff through. I'm not KwarK. It'd be best if you checked who you're replying to. EDIT: Also, you get to decide what does and doesn't mean something now? You can just handwave away evidence because you feel like it doesn't mean anything? Wow, that's something! EDIT 2: If you had clicked the link, you'd see how it breaks down "violent" and "non-violent". It's literally the first thing on the screen. On April 22 2021 07:47 brian wrote:
can you elaborate how you have come to this conclusion? to me it means cops killed people without reason. seems pertinent to the discussion.
I'll explain what I mean. Why the police responds somewhere doesn't mean anything in regards to what happens when they arrive. They can be called out for a noise complaint. In the course of them being there if they are then engaged in a gun fight, it is no longer 'a non-violent incident' but their initial reasoning for being there remains the same. So, ya, it means squat to me. Fair enough. Here's a tid bit you might care about though: out of those 1,127 police killings in 2020, 105 of them involved a suspect who had a gun but was not threatening anyone with the weapon at the time the suspect was killed. That's 105 people who, according to what the police themselves was reported, was not threatening someone at the time they were shot and killed. This doesn't include people who are unarmed, carrying a knife or other weapon with no intention to harm, etc. That's about 1 in 11 people shot and killed by the police who were not a threat and didn't need to be shot and, again, that's without including other data categories. I personally think that ratio is too high. https://policeviolencereport.org/ I am sure there are a number of problematic incidents in there, but have you actually looked through their database to determine how they qualify people for their determinations? Broad numbers give an idea, but looking through, if I am reading Alleged Threat Level (Source: WaPo) as the correct column for this, the 'other' reference has examples that I would not describe the same as they do. Or at least I think they are not at all what they are imagined to be by people that just look at the bulk numbers. Maybe that is why I have a problem with some descriptions that get thrown around. Like with that vid that BlackJack just posted(already regretting watching that), people will literally die on the hill that 'the man was shot for jay walking'. Not saying here, but that is where some of this has gotten. That situation is a classic example of police taking no risk to themselves at the cost of others. Seemed like a suicide by cop but backing away and continuing to try to deescalate is what should have happened. Easy for me to say without being there, but they put themselves into this job. It would be like electrical line workers refusing to work after a storm where risks are higher. That's part of the job. People will also say some pretty fucking heinous shit, if one were to read the comments on said incident. Racism and vomit-inducing bootlicking aplenty there. As much as I despise gross and increasingly deliberately provocative/clickbaity framings like ‘this grandma was shot for rocking in her porch chair’ or whatever when the reality was she pulled a hand grenade. I did some Googling of said incident, apparently the guy had long term struggles with mental health, and at the time of his death was in a state of ‘mental health crisis’, according to his mother anyway. Also the officer who shot him once also shot an unarmed person, to no particular censure. I’m unsure on the specifics of that instance, merely the quote from either the lawyer or the civil rights activist who was talking about this case that he was unfit then, and he’s shown it again. He was, basically shot for jaywalking. The officer says that’s why he’s being interfered with, not ‘you’ve been wandering around with a knife’. Then the officer failed to de-escalate what he’d started, spectacularly. And let’s be fucking real for a minute, how can you have a land of the free when jaywalking is a crime that police will actually pursue you for? When I was a kid and before I had the internet regularly, I heard the word crop up in American media, I genuinely thought it was some cool rebellious sport or youth activity like skateboarding or breakdancing. I once also thought my star sign of Libra was a giant fucking cool cat, but I think I got confused with Ligers. It didn’t seem like suicide by cop to me, he’d have bum-rushed him. Ill-advised posturing perhaps sure, but if he was having mental health problems then. I’ve lived amongst the severely mentally ill and been one myself and they aren’t always sensible, or particularly comprehensible. They can be violent absolutely but often they’re just desperate and completely, completely fucked. I mean pre-hospitalisation I was hallucinating, mostly audially, sweating like crazy all the time. Any noise caused me physical discomfort so I generally had earphones in pumping white noise like, 24/7. I was also pretty damn irrational, while not being violent my existence was rather intolerable. I’m not sure I’d have fared well if I’d been collared for jaywalking by this fellow. that is the initial crux yeah. from there the whole - insane - downward spiral begins just way too often. jaywalking? potential to get shot. traffic stop? potential to get shot (again). I am not facetious here. the risk of me personally in the location I live getting shot while being pulled over are close to nonexistent even if I only cooperate on a level so minimum... that she/he might write me a ticket for having an attitude or whatever and legitimize it by working so hard to find a violation like my first aid box is way past its expiration date - yes don't ask me how or why but that is a thing. we need one in the car, which kinda makes sense - but they also can spoil and should be replaced after like a couple of years... but that is it. well if I don't file for police harrassment. from there it could become rather expensive(compared to the ticket) and probably kafkaesque...  fill in any perceived normal - or what should be a normal - interaction between citizen and police and because circumstances are like they are (guns/training of cops/socioeconomic factors like an insane wealth disparity/melting pot USA/a history of slavery& bad/racist policing)... the likelihood for bullets being exchanged rather than words is just wayyyy too high. and especially POCs need more people to understand that. hell I dare you to look at reddit. If I got a € for every male/female Karen I saw the last year alone getting shoved down on the ground for simply not expecting the cop countering his/her attitude with the "full force of the law"... I might be able to add a higher sum than most people would expect for a post corona vacation  ) and granny grenade made my morning. tip of the hat to ya ^^ @puppykiller. but ya did. you simply replying clearly says otherwise. freedom of speech. respect it and don't hate. am I doing this rite?
Are you comparing having an attitude and an expired first aid kit to pulling out a knife or a gun on a cop?
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I might be stating the obvious but as long as many americans are ok with police being this lenient with use of deadly force nothing is going to change. I find this kinda strange considering how vocal americans are on protecting their civili rights from government, but hey thats not the only thing i find strange about US.
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On April 22 2021 18:39 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 13:11 Doublemint wrote:On April 22 2021 11:10 WombaT wrote:On April 22 2021 10:09 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 08:41 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:46 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:45 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:39 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:
[quote]
So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. Considering 58% of police shootings took place after police responded to a nonviolent incident, yeah, I'm sure there are an abundance of examples out there. https://www.axios.com/police-killings-2020-non-violent-incidents-dd3035a9-3182-43b9-9742-1a5f8786ca6c.html So no examples to share? As you said, should be an abundance from what you believe, so it probably would have taken less time than to pull up a unrelated link. "Responding to a non-violent incident" literally means nothing, if you think this stuff through. I'm not KwarK. It'd be best if you checked who you're replying to. EDIT: Also, you get to decide what does and doesn't mean something now? You can just handwave away evidence because you feel like it doesn't mean anything? Wow, that's something! EDIT 2: If you had clicked the link, you'd see how it breaks down "violent" and "non-violent". It's literally the first thing on the screen. On April 22 2021 07:47 brian wrote:
can you elaborate how you have come to this conclusion? to me it means cops killed people without reason. seems pertinent to the discussion.
I'll explain what I mean. Why the police responds somewhere doesn't mean anything in regards to what happens when they arrive. They can be called out for a noise complaint. In the course of them being there if they are then engaged in a gun fight, it is no longer 'a non-violent incident' but their initial reasoning for being there remains the same. So, ya, it means squat to me. Fair enough. Here's a tid bit you might care about though: out of those 1,127 police killings in 2020, 105 of them involved a suspect who had a gun but was not threatening anyone with the weapon at the time the suspect was killed. That's 105 people who, according to what the police themselves was reported, was not threatening someone at the time they were shot and killed. This doesn't include people who are unarmed, carrying a knife or other weapon with no intention to harm, etc. That's about 1 in 11 people shot and killed by the police who were not a threat and didn't need to be shot and, again, that's without including other data categories. I personally think that ratio is too high. https://policeviolencereport.org/ I am sure there are a number of problematic incidents in there, but have you actually looked through their database to determine how they qualify people for their determinations? Broad numbers give an idea, but looking through, if I am reading Alleged Threat Level (Source: WaPo) as the correct column for this, the 'other' reference has examples that I would not describe the same as they do. Or at least I think they are not at all what they are imagined to be by people that just look at the bulk numbers. Maybe that is why I have a problem with some descriptions that get thrown around. Like with that vid that BlackJack just posted(already regretting watching that), people will literally die on the hill that 'the man was shot for jay walking'. Not saying here, but that is where some of this has gotten. That situation is a classic example of police taking no risk to themselves at the cost of others. Seemed like a suicide by cop but backing away and continuing to try to deescalate is what should have happened. Easy for me to say without being there, but they put themselves into this job. It would be like electrical line workers refusing to work after a storm where risks are higher. That's part of the job. People will also say some pretty fucking heinous shit, if one were to read the comments on said incident. Racism and vomit-inducing bootlicking aplenty there. As much as I despise gross and increasingly deliberately provocative/clickbaity framings like ‘this grandma was shot for rocking in her porch chair’ or whatever when the reality was she pulled a hand grenade. I did some Googling of said incident, apparently the guy had long term struggles with mental health, and at the time of his death was in a state of ‘mental health crisis’, according to his mother anyway. Also the officer who shot him once also shot an unarmed person, to no particular censure. I’m unsure on the specifics of that instance, merely the quote from either the lawyer or the civil rights activist who was talking about this case that he was unfit then, and he’s shown it again. He was, basically shot for jaywalking. The officer says that’s why he’s being interfered with, not ‘you’ve been wandering around with a knife’. Then the officer failed to de-escalate what he’d started, spectacularly. And let’s be fucking real for a minute, how can you have a land of the free when jaywalking is a crime that police will actually pursue you for? When I was a kid and before I had the internet regularly, I heard the word crop up in American media, I genuinely thought it was some cool rebellious sport or youth activity like skateboarding or breakdancing. I once also thought my star sign of Libra was a giant fucking cool cat, but I think I got confused with Ligers. It didn’t seem like suicide by cop to me, he’d have bum-rushed him. Ill-advised posturing perhaps sure, but if he was having mental health problems then. I’ve lived amongst the severely mentally ill and been one myself and they aren’t always sensible, or particularly comprehensible. They can be violent absolutely but often they’re just desperate and completely, completely fucked. I mean pre-hospitalisation I was hallucinating, mostly audially, sweating like crazy all the time. Any noise caused me physical discomfort so I generally had earphones in pumping white noise like, 24/7. I was also pretty damn irrational, while not being violent my existence was rather intolerable. I’m not sure I’d have fared well if I’d been collared for jaywalking by this fellow. that is the initial crux yeah. from there the whole - insane - downward spiral begins just way too often. jaywalking? potential to get shot. traffic stop? potential to get shot (again). I am not facetious here. the risk of me personally in the location I live getting shot while being pulled over are close to nonexistent even if I only cooperate on a level so minimum... that she/he might write me a ticket for having an attitude or whatever and legitimize it by working so hard to find a violation like my first aid box is way past its expiration date - yes don't ask me how or why but that is a thing. we need one in the car, which kinda makes sense - but they also can spoil and should be replaced after like a couple of years... but that is it. well if I don't file for police harrassment. from there it could become rather expensive(compared to the ticket) and probably kafkaesque... fill in any perceived normal - or what should be a normal - interaction between citizen and police and because circumstances are like they are (guns/training of cops/socioeconomic factors like an insane wealth disparity/melting pot USA/a history of slavery& bad/racist policing)... the likelihood for bullets being exchanged rather than words is just wayyyy too high. and especially POCs need more people to understand that. hell I dare you to look at reddit. If I got a € for every male/female Karen I saw the last year alone getting shoved down on the ground for simply not expecting the cop countering his/her attitude with the "full force of the law"... I might be able to add a higher sum than most people would expect for a post corona vacation ) and granny grenade made my morning. tip of the hat to ya ^^ @puppykiller. but ya did. you simply replying clearly says otherwise. freedom of speech. respect it and don't hate. am I doing this rite? Are you comparing having an attitude and an expired first aid kit to pulling out a knife or a gun on a cop?
I am not. it was more a general statement, as this is not the first "case" being discussed here, only one of the more recent ones around "policing in the US". to give you a more apt example, which luckily ties in nicely with what I described and obvious differences:
https://www.businessinsider.com/video-virginia-traffic-cops-pepper-spraying-black-army-officer-i-2021-4?r=DE&IR=T
and to be absolutely clear, I believe no one would say that this the norm of course - if that were the case you would have more (white) people complaining as well and something would be done rather sooner than later.
but through the power of technology we get kind of a feeling for how often such things happen. either body cams or videos done by phone from various people involved somehow.
//and more importantly, who is more likely a "victim of bad policing".
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On April 22 2021 18:40 Silvanel wrote:
I might be stating the obvious but as long as many americans are ok with police being this lenient with use of deadly force nothing is going to change. I find this kinda strange considering how vocal americans are on protecting their civili rights from government, but hey thats not the only thing i find strange about US.
I made a similar point earlier. Most people are generally okay with how police carry out their jobs and are only after minimal reforms so another George Floyd doesn't happen.
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I'm curious, are police officers in the US required to fire a warning shot first before shooting a person? Or can they just start firing at people at their discretion?
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Please, please don't do that, or we get another discussion about whether shooting with any goal other than to kill is a thing, or a good idea, or...
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On April 22 2021 17:04 Doublemint wrote:watch bigotted TuckerBot crash and burn in a - shortened - interview, as a former police officer does not react the way he wants him to on the verdict of Chauvin and the actions that led to it. and what it means in a broader context for policing in the US. + Show Spoiler +something shifted in this country of yours, and some people don't like it one bit. remarkable. // from a strictly media perspective - the police officer seemed to have left the "bubble" mid interview which people like Tucker work so hard to build and sustain, and he can't have that. snark and desperate bile followed and the officer booted off the air mid sentence. juicy stuff.
Tucker's implication in that clip that shoplifters going through the windows at Macy's should be dealt with deadly force was eerie.
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Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though.
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On April 22 2021 20:42 EnDeR_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 17:04 Doublemint wrote:watch bigotted TuckerBot crash and burn in a - shortened - interview, as a former police officer does not react the way he wants him to on the verdict of Chauvin and the actions that led to it. and what it means in a broader context for policing in the US. + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0ayHFwKjOE something shifted in this country of yours, and some people don't like it one bit. remarkable. // from a strictly media perspective - the police officer seemed to have left the "bubble" mid interview which people like Tucker work so hard to build and sustain, and he can't have that. snark and desperate bile followed and the officer booted off the air mid sentence. juicy stuff. Tucker's implication in that clip that shoplifters going through the windows at Macy's should be dealt with deadly force was eerie.
Can't believe Tucker *cancelled* that officer when the interview didn't go his way lol. Tucker strawmanned that guy so hard. How you get from "this particular case was open-and-shut; the cop was clearly guilty" to "so who's gonna wanna be a cop if we can't just murder black people whenever we want" and "so cops shouldn't enforce the law ever" was really cringeworthy.
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On April 22 2021 21:04 farvacola wrote:
Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: He's exactly the kind of famous, popular, fast-talking, slimy, right-wing, succeeded-in-appealing-to-both-Trump-supporters-and-non-Trump-conservatives, populist asshole who could win a Republican presidential primary and potentially become president.
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On April 22 2021 21:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 21:04 farvacola wrote:
Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though. I've said it before and I'll say it again: He's exactly the kind of famous, popular, fast-talking, slimy, right-wing, succeeded-in-appealing-to-both-Trump-supporters-and-non-Trump-conservatives, populist asshole who could win a Republican presidential primary and potentially become president.
Before trump I would have said that you're crazy but if the economy has a crash in the next couple years as it looks like and biden can't get anything done due to manchin and midterms I think it's more likely than not that he will be.
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United States43664 Posts
On April 22 2021 21:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 21:04 farvacola wrote:
Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though. I've said it before and I'll say it again: He's exactly the kind of famous, popular, fast-talking, slimy, right-wing, succeeded-in-appealing-to-both-Trump-supporters-and-non-Trump-conservatives, populist asshole who could win a Republican presidential primary and potentially become president.
Only if they can’t find someone worse to nominate. Ted Cruz is a massive piece of shit but he couldn’t win the shitfest that was the Republican primary. Carlson is also a piece of shit which makes him qualified to be their candidate but they may find someone worse.
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Northern Ireland26337 Posts
On April 22 2021 14:03 NrG.Bamboo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 13:57 Doublemint wrote:On April 22 2021 13:51 NrG.Bamboo wrote:On April 22 2021 13:44 Doublemint wrote:On April 22 2021 13:41 BlackJack wrote:
I don't know why we can't agree police could have handled that better without resorting to absurd statements like "he was basically shot for jaywalking." are those two statements so far apart? " he basically was shot for jaywalking, I guess police could have handled that better". it is hyperbolic sure - he was shot for jaywalking - but is it actually wrong? Seems more that he was approached for jaywalking and throwing things at cars; he was shot for pulling out a knife and responding aggressively. What prompted the interaction isn't exactly what caused that ending. yup. again sry for the confusion. All good ^^ Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 11:10 WombaT wrote:On April 22 2021 10:09 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 08:41 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:46 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:45 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:39 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:
[quote]
'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. Considering 58% of police shootings took place after police responded to a nonviolent incident, yeah, I'm sure there are an abundance of examples out there. https://www.axios.com/police-killings-2020-non-violent-incidents-dd3035a9-3182-43b9-9742-1a5f8786ca6c.html So no examples to share? As you said, should be an abundance from what you believe, so it probably would have taken less time than to pull up a unrelated link. "Responding to a non-violent incident" literally means nothing, if you think this stuff through. I'm not KwarK. It'd be best if you checked who you're replying to. EDIT: Also, you get to decide what does and doesn't mean something now? You can just handwave away evidence because you feel like it doesn't mean anything? Wow, that's something! EDIT 2: If you had clicked the link, you'd see how it breaks down "violent" and "non-violent". It's literally the first thing on the screen. On April 22 2021 07:47 brian wrote:
can you elaborate how you have come to this conclusion? to me it means cops killed people without reason. seems pertinent to the discussion.
I'll explain what I mean. Why the police responds somewhere doesn't mean anything in regards to what happens when they arrive. They can be called out for a noise complaint. In the course of them being there if they are then engaged in a gun fight, it is no longer 'a non-violent incident' but their initial reasoning for being there remains the same. So, ya, it means squat to me. Fair enough. Here's a tid bit you might care about though: out of those 1,127 police killings in 2020, 105 of them involved a suspect who had a gun but was not threatening anyone with the weapon at the time the suspect was killed. That's 105 people who, according to what the police themselves was reported, was not threatening someone at the time they were shot and killed. This doesn't include people who are unarmed, carrying a knife or other weapon with no intention to harm, etc. That's about 1 in 11 people shot and killed by the police who were not a threat and didn't need to be shot and, again, that's without including other data categories. I personally think that ratio is too high. https://policeviolencereport.org/ I am sure there are a number of problematic incidents in there, but have you actually looked through their database to determine how they qualify people for their determinations? Broad numbers give an idea, but looking through, if I am reading Alleged Threat Level (Source: WaPo) as the correct column for this, the 'other' reference has examples that I would not describe the same as they do. Or at least I think they are not at all what they are imagined to be by people that just look at the bulk numbers. Maybe that is why I have a problem with some descriptions that get thrown around. Like with that vid that BlackJack just posted(already regretting watching that), people will literally die on the hill that 'the man was shot for jay walking'. Not saying here, but that is where some of this has gotten. That situation is a classic example of police taking no risk to themselves at the cost of others. Seemed like a suicide by cop but backing away and continuing to try to deescalate is what should have happened. Easy for me to say without being there, but they put themselves into this job. It would be like electrical line workers refusing to work after a storm where risks are higher. That's part of the job. It didn’t seem like suicide by cop to me, he’d have bum-rushed him. Turns out holding a knife in front of a cop and saying "kill me" works just as well, though. + Show Spoiler +On April 22 2021 11:10 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 10:09 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 08:41 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:46 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:45 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:39 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:25 dp wrote:
[quote]
The bold is an exceptional statement. I assume you can back up the 'very frequently' and explain what you mean by 'deprive property'. 'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. Considering 58% of police shootings took place after police responded to a nonviolent incident, yeah, I'm sure there are an abundance of examples out there. https://www.axios.com/police-killings-2020-non-violent-incidents-dd3035a9-3182-43b9-9742-1a5f8786ca6c.html So no examples to share? As you said, should be an abundance from what you believe, so it probably would have taken less time than to pull up a unrelated link. "Responding to a non-violent incident" literally means nothing, if you think this stuff through. I'm not KwarK. It'd be best if you checked who you're replying to. EDIT: Also, you get to decide what does and doesn't mean something now? You can just handwave away evidence because you feel like it doesn't mean anything? Wow, that's something! EDIT 2: If you had clicked the link, you'd see how it breaks down "violent" and "non-violent". It's literally the first thing on the screen. On April 22 2021 07:47 brian wrote:
can you elaborate how you have come to this conclusion? to me it means cops killed people without reason. seems pertinent to the discussion.
I'll explain what I mean. Why the police responds somewhere doesn't mean anything in regards to what happens when they arrive. They can be called out for a noise complaint. In the course of them being there if they are then engaged in a gun fight, it is no longer 'a non-violent incident' but their initial reasoning for being there remains the same. So, ya, it means squat to me. Fair enough. Here's a tid bit you might care about though: out of those 1,127 police killings in 2020, 105 of them involved a suspect who had a gun but was not threatening anyone with the weapon at the time the suspect was killed. That's 105 people who, according to what the police themselves was reported, was not threatening someone at the time they were shot and killed. This doesn't include people who are unarmed, carrying a knife or other weapon with no intention to harm, etc. That's about 1 in 11 people shot and killed by the police who were not a threat and didn't need to be shot and, again, that's without including other data categories. I personally think that ratio is too high. https://policeviolencereport.org/ I am sure there are a number of problematic incidents in there, but have you actually looked through their database to determine how they qualify people for their determinations? Broad numbers give an idea, but looking through, if I am reading Alleged Threat Level (Source: WaPo) as the correct column for this, the 'other' reference has examples that I would not describe the same as they do. Or at least I think they are not at all what they are imagined to be by people that just look at the bulk numbers. Maybe that is why I have a problem with some descriptions that get thrown around. Like with that vid that BlackJack just posted(already regretting watching that), people will literally die on the hill that 'the man was shot for jay walking'. Not saying here, but that is where some of this has gotten. That situation is a classic example of police taking no risk to themselves at the cost of others. Seemed like a suicide by cop but backing away and continuing to try to deescalate is what should have happened. Easy for me to say without being there, but they put themselves into this job. It would be like electrical line workers refusing to work after a storm where risks are higher. That's part of the job. I once also thought my star sign of Libra was a giant fucking cool cat, but I think I got confused with Ligers. I actually thought the exact same thing about being a Libra. Weird.
Finally, there is another!
Alas I cannot remotely gaze into the souls of men, perhaps suicide by cop was his aim. That said outside of an unlucky few most people aren’t permanently suicidal, I mean if our buddy was feeling that way we wouldn’t go ‘your choice bud go ahead’.
Perhaps saying he was shot for jaywalking is a tad hyperbolic but if we’re seeing so many failures to control and de-escalate for victimless or very low level infractions.
It’s a somewhat false dichotomy of course, I’d rather folks get to shoplift or commit some traffic infraction, or god forbid jaywalk without punishment than end up deep for it.
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On April 22 2021 22:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 21:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2021 21:04 farvacola wrote:
Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though. I've said it before and I'll say it again: He's exactly the kind of famous, popular, fast-talking, slimy, right-wing, succeeded-in-appealing-to-both-Trump-supporters-and-non-Trump-conservatives, populist asshole who could win a Republican presidential primary and potentially become president. Only if they can’t find someone worse to nominate. Ted Cruz is a massive piece of shit but he couldn’t win the shitfest that was the Republican primary. Carlson is also a piece of shit which makes him qualified to be their candidate but they may find someone worse.
Hannity/Carlson 2024 ticket?
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On April 22 2021 10:38 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 10:13 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 09:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 22 2021 08:16 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 farvacola wrote:On April 22 2021 07:49 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:On April 22 2021 07:25 dp wrote:
[quote]
The bold is an exceptional statement. I assume you can back up the 'very frequently' and explain what you mean by 'deprive property'. 'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. So your argument is that a nonzero number of people being gunned down for property theft/damage is acceptable until it reaches a certain threshold at which point it becomes unacceptable? My argument is literally spelled out exactly in my post. Too often people throw out random nonsense and it is just accepted as if it is reality. Words have meaning. They also have influence on people and how they react to the world. When you spread what charitably can be said is hyperbole, and what I would categorize as make believe, it should be called out. It's becoming so that as long as they target of this is acceptable, it is fine to do so. I think that will become a problem the longer it continues. As someone who mere posts ago used the phrase "literally means nothing" like a hill giant swinging a club after being hit in the face with a color spray, it'd probably be best to not play pretend at being strict with semantics. I explained what I meant after but it feels like this needs addressing as well. What was said is not some small semantical error. It is outright incorrect. The amount of cases that would even approach the description is so infinitesimal, that describing it in such a way is not a word use error but an argument against reality. That does not mean stuff like this hasn't happened, in some form that would make the description relevant. I don't see anyone else pushing back against these broad statements though. Um infinitesimal means really small. When you look at these kind of shootings you have WAY more per capita then countries with similar (yet lower) GDP. The absolute number is not infinitesimal it is a multiple digit full number. The comparative number is even larger. If you want to try to take a stand on people using words exactly correctly, without exaggeration, you might want to at least "be the change" in the same hour you are on your soap box. I am going to assume you did not read the sentence Kwark said that I took issue with, because you broadened it to police shootings as if that is at all what was said. Feel free to look back, and if it is 'WAY more' and a 'multiple full digit number', in regards to what I am actually calling out, you can go ahead and give some examples. More likely you will continue the strawman or ignore me moving forward. It's hard to know how literal you are, but your exact I don't need to search more then 1 has been brought up today and we both know there is more. 1 is already more than you said and many more times than other countries, like I said.
I feel like you are still discussing something different here. So again, here is the statement.
Very frequently the police use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone. The harm done to society by extrajudicial police executions is greater than by stolen TVs.
There have been no examples given yet that come close to matching this. Again, if they are so frequent, people would inundate me with nonstop examples to prove my ignorance. StasisField shared a site with a breakdown of stats on police killings, with the corresponding database to reference. No one has put in any effort to bring up all these 'frequent' examples. So accept fantasy as fact if you like.
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United States43664 Posts
On April 22 2021 23:20 dp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On April 22 2021 10:13 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 09:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 22 2021 08:16 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 farvacola wrote:On April 22 2021 07:49 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:
[quote]
'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. So your argument is that a nonzero number of people being gunned down for property theft/damage is acceptable until it reaches a certain threshold at which point it becomes unacceptable? My argument is literally spelled out exactly in my post. Too often people throw out random nonsense and it is just accepted as if it is reality. Words have meaning. They also have influence on people and how they react to the world. When you spread what charitably can be said is hyperbole, and what I would categorize as make believe, it should be called out. It's becoming so that as long as they target of this is acceptable, it is fine to do so. I think that will become a problem the longer it continues. As someone who mere posts ago used the phrase "literally means nothing" like a hill giant swinging a club after being hit in the face with a color spray, it'd probably be best to not play pretend at being strict with semantics. I explained what I meant after but it feels like this needs addressing as well. What was said is not some small semantical error. It is outright incorrect. The amount of cases that would even approach the description is so infinitesimal, that describing it in such a way is not a word use error but an argument against reality. That does not mean stuff like this hasn't happened, in some form that would make the description relevant. I don't see anyone else pushing back against these broad statements though. Um infinitesimal means really small. When you look at these kind of shootings you have WAY more per capita then countries with similar (yet lower) GDP. The absolute number is not infinitesimal it is a multiple digit full number. The comparative number is even larger. If you want to try to take a stand on people using words exactly correctly, without exaggeration, you might want to at least "be the change" in the same hour you are on your soap box. I am going to assume you did not read the sentence Kwark said that I took issue with, because you broadened it to police shootings as if that is at all what was said. Feel free to look back, and if it is 'WAY more' and a 'multiple full digit number', in regards to what I am actually calling out, you can go ahead and give some examples. More likely you will continue the strawman or ignore me moving forward. It's hard to know how literal you are, but your exact I don't need to search more then 1 has been brought up today and we both know there is more. 1 is already more than you said and many more times than other countries, like I said. I feel like you are still discussing something different here. So again, here is the statement. Show nested quote +Very frequently the police use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone. The harm done to society by extrajudicial police executions is greater than by stolen TVs. There have been no examples given yet that come close to matching this. Again, if they are so frequent, people would inundate me with nonstop examples to prove my ignorance. StasisField shared a site with a breakdown of stats on police killings, with the corresponding database to reference. No one has put in any effort to bring up all these 'frequent' examples. So accept fantasy as fact if you like.
Examples were given.
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I think he's focusing only on the "very frequently" and the literal sentence rather than being able to think in a more wide ranging area of discussion. dp isn't interested in the numbers StatisField brought up, nor your example KwarK because it doesn't fit the literal sentence structure you gave. By forcing you to give multiple (read hundreds) within a say, 5 year time period, he can skirt the truth that people are being murdered by cops. Your example was the most recent and high profile one and that still doesn't fit his literal definition of the sentence. dp will just look for something that doesn't fit his narrative within the example (she wasn't acting in her "official capacity" invalidates your example, according to him).
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Northern Ireland26337 Posts
On April 22 2021 22:33 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 21:08 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 22 2021 21:04 farvacola wrote:
Tucker represents the very worst this country has to offer and the sooner he loses relevance the better. I doubt that'll happen anytime soon though. I've said it before and I'll say it again: He's exactly the kind of famous, popular, fast-talking, slimy, right-wing, succeeded-in-appealing-to-both-Trump-supporters-and-non-Trump-conservatives, populist asshole who could win a Republican presidential primary and potentially become president. Only if they can’t find someone worse to nominate. Ted Cruz is a massive piece of shit but he couldn’t win the shitfest that was the Republican primary. Carlson is also a piece of shit which makes him qualified to be their candidate but they may find someone worse.
Carlson is also a general piece of shit who occasionally comes out with takes even I as a left wing extremist by US standards agrees with.
So I imagine he’s got more broad appeal to the likes of ‘independents’ as well as aspects of the Republican base who like left leaning populist ideas so long as they’re not packaged as such. A la some of Trump’s initial appeal.
I’m not sure Cruz has those other feathers to his bow in quite the same way.
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Northern Ireland26337 Posts
On April 22 2021 23:20 dp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2021 10:38 JimmiC wrote:On April 22 2021 10:13 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 09:46 JimmiC wrote:On April 22 2021 08:16 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:55 farvacola wrote:On April 22 2021 07:49 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:42 EnDeR_ wrote:On April 22 2021 07:33 dp wrote:On April 22 2021 07:31 StasisField wrote:
[quote]
'deprive property' obviously means theft. The very next sentence even mentions stolen TVs. Don't play dumb. So there should be an abundance of examples of cops gunning down people running away with TV's then, correct? And since hyperbole is the only way to get points across in these kind of discussions, it becomes increasingly necessary to point out when it is obvious. So your argument is that a nonzero number of people being gunned down for property theft/damage is acceptable until it reaches a certain threshold at which point it becomes unacceptable? My argument is literally spelled out exactly in my post. Too often people throw out random nonsense and it is just accepted as if it is reality. Words have meaning. They also have influence on people and how they react to the world. When you spread what charitably can be said is hyperbole, and what I would categorize as make believe, it should be called out. It's becoming so that as long as they target of this is acceptable, it is fine to do so. I think that will become a problem the longer it continues. As someone who mere posts ago used the phrase "literally means nothing" like a hill giant swinging a club after being hit in the face with a color spray, it'd probably be best to not play pretend at being strict with semantics. I explained what I meant after but it feels like this needs addressing as well. What was said is not some small semantical error. It is outright incorrect. The amount of cases that would even approach the description is so infinitesimal, that describing it in such a way is not a word use error but an argument against reality. That does not mean stuff like this hasn't happened, in some form that would make the description relevant. I don't see anyone else pushing back against these broad statements though. Um infinitesimal means really small. When you look at these kind of shootings you have WAY more per capita then countries with similar (yet lower) GDP. The absolute number is not infinitesimal it is a multiple digit full number. The comparative number is even larger. If you want to try to take a stand on people using words exactly correctly, without exaggeration, you might want to at least "be the change" in the same hour you are on your soap box. I am going to assume you did not read the sentence Kwark said that I took issue with, because you broadened it to police shootings as if that is at all what was said. Feel free to look back, and if it is 'WAY more' and a 'multiple full digit number', in regards to what I am actually calling out, you can go ahead and give some examples. More likely you will continue the strawman or ignore me moving forward. It's hard to know how literal you are, but your exact I don't need to search more then 1 has been brought up today and we both know there is more. 1 is already more than you said and many more times than other countries, like I said. I feel like you are still discussing something different here. So again, here is the statement. Show nested quote +Very frequently the police use deadly force against a suspect who was attempting to deprive someone of property rather than kill anyone. The harm done to society by extrajudicial police executions is greater than by stolen TVs. There have been no examples given yet that come close to matching this. Again, if they are so frequent, people would inundate me with nonstop examples to prove my ignorance. StasisField shared a site with a breakdown of stats on police killings, with the corresponding database to reference. No one has put in any effort to bring up all these 'frequent' examples. So accept fantasy as fact if you like.
It’s a big country sure, where are all these people in Europe/Anzac countries and Canada who are getting killed during routine traffic stops?
That aside killings are merely the cherry on top of a pretty shit fucking cake. There’s the whole smorgasbord of a huge prison population of mostly poor people whose grievous crime was smoking some weed and police forces wielded in incarcerating more and more of these kind of folks.
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