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On June 19 2018 06:25 Plansix wrote:
First off, if you are going to mischaracterize my statements, this discussion is over. I do not support human trafficking and you know it.
And the reason they are not going to a port of entry is that they are being turned away without being processed:
I do not know that you don't support human trafficking, and I don't think I mischaracterized you. In fact, you explained the necessity of the human trafficking right there by saying that they are doing it because people are being turned away at the border. That could merit a worthwhile conversation.
Here is the full quote of what you are accusing me of misrepresenting:
On June 19 2018 05:23 Plansix wrote:
Asylum seekers often cross borders illegal in their efforts to seek asylum because they fear for their lives. This is how many asylum seekers enter the US, either through human smuggling due to political oppression or due to fear of violence back home. They are running, seeking asylum and being detained by ICE due to crossing the border illegal, which is a minor crime.
This, too, looks like you are saying that the human trafficking is justified.
How have I mischaracterized your statements?
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On June 19 2018 06:21 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 05:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2018 05:14 Doodsmack wrote:On June 19 2018 04:54 PeTraSoHot wrote:On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
You asked if this was happening under Obama and people said no... But because immigrant parents were sometimes separated from their kids... attributing this to the Trump administration is "propagating false information?" Um... YES!?!?!? On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
I'm trying to think of an analogy to describe what a ridiculous equivalence that is. Let's suppose it came out during the Obama administration that Joe Biden had personally, viciously murdered hundreds, if not thousands of people since becoming Vice President, and was quite possibly the most heinous serial killer America had ever seen. But in response to conservative critics of Joe Bidens numerous, merciless killings, a liberal defender said "what, was this not going on under the Bush administration too?" When a conservative critic responds incredulously that no, it wasn't, the liberal cites an article about Cheney killing a friend in a hunting accident and decries the conservatives for their hypocrisy.
From the article you cited, the Obama administration occasionally separated children from their parents when they thought it was best for the child. The Trump administration, meanwhile, is doing it uniformly across the board without exception, meaning no regard for the children's well-being factors into the decision of whether to separate them from their parents. We could argue about whether the former was justified if you want. I think the latter is blatantly destructive to those children's futures. Do you agree? https://www.dailywire.com/news/31979/media-are-lying-about-trump-separating-illegal-ben-shapiroHave a look at the pictures in this article... It doesn't really fit your analogy. Furthermore, from the article: "Immigrants Seeking Asylum Are Being Punished For Seeking Asylum. This is plainly untrue as well. Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum aren’t actually illegally in the country – they’re not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. If, however, illegal immigrants cross the border illegally, the Trump administration now treats them as criminals." On June 16 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:
The rest of the questions: there is no justification for splitting up the families. It is purely done to inflict suffering on those seeking asylum to discourage other asylum seekers and to discourage the parents from fighting their deportation. On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
So Trump has begun a standard policy of prosecuting first-time undocumented immigrants, including asylum-seekers and parents, with felony charges I think your statements are misleading. But if that's wrong, I'd like to know how. The Trump administration purposely implemented a change in April that has resulted in many more families being separated than before. It’s being done as a deterrent. It’s attributable to the Trump admin. What is attributable to Trump is that it has increased and the "deterrent" aspect has been emphasized. What can't be attributed to him (exclusively) is the inhumane separations and caging of children. That was happening long before he got there and most of the people mad about it now had anything to say about it. I haven't done a good job of keeping myself informed about the plight of illegal immigrants, and certainly haven't done much of anything to be an activist on their behalf. If that's your accusation, plead guilty on both counts. But when a new policy of being crueler to groups people we weren't as cruel to before is implemented, that seems like a reasonable time to speak up about it, and I don't see why people shouldn't get to do so just because they haven't always been on a crusade for the cause.
I don't have a problem with people speaking out about the cruel and inhumane treatment of immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, minorities, or any oppressed group. I do have a problem with putting it all on Republicans and not acknowledging the underlying issues that allowed it to get this far.
Keeps those folks in a partisan tit for tat that gets no one anywhere.
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On June 19 2018 06:40 PeTraSoHot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:25 Plansix wrote:
First off, if you are going to mischaracterize my statements, this discussion is over. I do not support human trafficking and you know it.
And the reason they are not going to a port of entry is that they are being turned away without being processed: I do not know that you don't support human trafficking, and I don't think I mischaracterized you. In fact, you explained the necessity of the human trafficking right there by saying that they are doing it because people are being turned away at the border. That could merit a worthwhile conversation. Here is the full quote of what you are accusing me of misrepresenting: Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 05:23 Plansix wrote:
Asylum seekers often cross borders illegal in their efforts to seek asylum because they fear for their lives. This is how many asylum seekers enter the US, either through human smuggling due to political oppression or due to fear of violence back home. They are running, seeking asylum and being detained by ICE due to crossing the border illegal, which is a minor crime. This, too, looks like you are saying that the human trafficking is justified. How have I mischaracterized your statements?
He is explaining the reality of the situation, he doesn't endorse or support human trafficking whatsoever in those comments. You can deflect all you want but you're purposefully ignoring critiques of your position to focus on something entirely unrelated and demonstrability absurd "PlanSix supports human trafficking." It's not a good look.
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On June 19 2018 06:40 PeTraSoHot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:25 Plansix wrote:
First off, if you are going to mischaracterize my statements, this discussion is over. I do not support human trafficking and you know it.
And the reason they are not going to a port of entry is that they are being turned away without being processed: I do not know that you don't support human trafficking, and I don't think I mischaracterized you. In fact, you justified the human trafficking right there by explaining that they are engaging in human trafficking because people are being turned away at the border. That could merit a worthwhile conversation. Here is a more complete quote of what you are criticizing me for: Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 05:23 Plansix wrote:
Asylum seekers often cross borders illegal in their efforts to seek asylum because they fear for their lives. This is how many asylum seekers enter the US, either through human smuggling due to political oppression or due to fear of violence back home. They are running, seeking asylum and being detained by ICE due to crossing the border illegal, which is a minor crime. This, too, looks like you are saying that the human trafficking is justified. How have I mischaracterized your statements?
Because it was in response to why people cross teh border illegal, either by sea or land. Sometimes to get to the US they employ smugglers. It is a statement of fact. Not an endorsement or support of the practice. I do not condemn asylum seekers for getting involved with human traffickers out of desperation.
In my opinion it is quite a reach to take my statements as endorsing human trafficking and it is diminishing my good faith in this discussion. Children are being abused on mass and folks want to quibble about if the past administration did this or if its the immigrants fault their children are being placed in cages by the US goverment.
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On June 19 2018 06:40 PeTraSoHot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:25 Plansix wrote:
First off, if you are going to mischaracterize my statements, this discussion is over. I do not support human trafficking and you know it.
And the reason they are not going to a port of entry is that they are being turned away without being processed: I do not know that you don't support human trafficking, and I don't think I mischaracterized you. In fact, you explained the necessity of the human trafficking right there by saying that they are doing it because people are being turned away at the border. That could merit a worthwhile conversation. Here is the full quote of what you are accusing me of misrepresenting: Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 05:23 Plansix wrote:
Asylum seekers often cross borders illegal in their efforts to seek asylum because they fear for their lives. This is how many asylum seekers enter the US, either through human smuggling due to political oppression or due to fear of violence back home. They are running, seeking asylum and being detained by ICE due to crossing the border illegal, which is a minor crime. This, too, looks like you are saying that the human trafficking is justified. How have I mischaracterized your statements?
You definitely have mischaracterised his statements, and you've been around here long enough to know better than to say something so stupid. You absolutely deserve the pile on you're getting right now, and should apologise and back up before digging yourself into a hole.
Unless you can somehow explain how a quote where Plansix explains how people get into the US is a defense of how they get into the US. Or do we have to get real simple and explain the difference between explaining a thing, and justifying a thing?
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If you're wondering why they aren't going after the Businesses it's simply because Capitalism comes before anything else, even making the country more White by force. I'm surprised the Admin hasn't started giving the nod for mass raids into random cities yet.
The goal for Miller and his team is to arm Trump with enough data and statistics by early September to show voters that he fulfilled his immigration promises — even without a physical border wall or any other congressional measure, said one Republican close to the White House.
Among the fresh ideas being circulated: tightening rules on student visas and exchange programs; limiting visas for temporary agricultural workers; making it harder for legal immigrants who have applied for any welfare programs to obtain residency; and collecting biometric data from visitors from certain countries.
Details of the ideas are still being worked out, said one White House official.
In one of the most closely watched plans under discussion, the Department of Homeland Security has proposed a new rule that former Obama administration officials and immigration advocates worry could be used as an end run around a 1997 court settlement that limits the length of time migrant children can be kept in government custody.
In one interim final rule, DHS would expand and make permanent a pilot program that allows the agency to collect biometric data — such as fingerprints, photographs or retina scans — from certain foreigners at land ports and some airports and seaports: a move that alarms privacy advocates.
Source
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On June 19 2018 06:47 Plansix wrote:
Children are being abused on mass and folks want to quibble about if the past administration did this or if its the immigrants fault their children are being placed in cages by the US goverment.
Well don't blame me. I started this discussion with you here:
On June 16 2018 04:17 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Regarding separating children at the border, can you fill me in on the problem? Are you wanting them to be put in the same prison / cell / detainment facility as their parents? What explanation has there been for why we wouldn't do that? Are you unhappy about the quality of the accommodations? I'm not really sure what exactly your complaint is.
On June 19 2018 06:47 Plansix wrote:
I do not condemn asylum seekers for getting involved with human traffickers out of desperation.
In my opinion it is quite a reach to take my statements as endorsing human trafficking
You don't seem to be indifferent towards it, or ignorant of it, and you're telling me you're not against it... that doesn't leave a lot of options. I think it's a reach to say I was reaching.
I don't really care whether you're for it or against it anyway. Maybe we can refocus the discussion around what my questions have been about from the start.
What do you think should be done about people who cross illegally, whether it be 1) Arrive at entry point, 2) Sneak across and then report yourself to authorities and request asylum, 3) Sneak across, get caught, then say you want asylum, 4) etc? What other things would make more appropriate deterrents for crossing illegally? What should be done with children of people who cross illegally when the adults are jailed and there is no available legal guardian to claim them?
All I've gotten for answers so far is that Trump, Sessions, and Kelly want to watch them squirm.
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Internal polling for Cruz vs O'Rourke must look pretty bad (note, I have a bet out to eat a sock if O'Rourke wins). But there's definitely something else at play because he could, y'know, sign the Dem bill that has 49 votes already.
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/ted-cruz-emergency-legislation-to-end-family-separation/
Here's a longer article with some info on what he's proposing. It's honestly not completely terrible, though I'm not sure what the endgame for it is.
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On June 19 2018 07:59 PeTraSoHot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:47 Plansix wrote:
Children are being abused on mass and folks want to quibble about if the past administration did this or if its the immigrants fault their children are being placed in cages by the US goverment. Well don't blame me. I started this discussion with you here: Show nested quote +On June 16 2018 04:17 PeTraSoHot wrote:
Regarding separating children at the border, can you fill me in on the problem? Are you wanting them to be put in the same prison / cell / detainment facility as their parents? What explanation has there been for why we wouldn't do that? Are you unhappy about the quality of the accommodations? I'm not really sure what exactly your complaint is. Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:47 Plansix wrote:
I do not condemn asylum seekers for getting involved with human traffickers out of desperation.
In my opinion it is quite a reach to take my statements as endorsing human trafficking You don't seem to be indifferent towards it, or ignorant of it, and you're telling me you're not against it... that doesn't leave a lot of options. I think it's a reach to say I was reaching. I don't really care whether you're for it or against it anyway. Maybe we can refocus the discussion around what my questions have been about from the start. What do you think should be done about people who cross illegally, whether it be 1) Arrive at entry point, 2) Sneak across and then report yourself to authorities and request asylum, 3) Sneak across, get caught, then say you want asylum, 4) etc? What other things would make more appropriate deterrents for crossing illegally? What should be done with children of people who cross illegally when the adults are jailed and there is no available legal guardian to claim them? All I've gotten for answers so far is that Trump, Sessions, and Kelly want to watch them squirm.
We shouldn’t be detaining asylum seekers. Crossing the border illegally is the civil code equivalent of a misdemeanor, lighter than shop lifting. If folks have to be detained, we do it the same way as every other civilized country, we hold them with their kids or let them stay with relatives. I would note the children that have relatives in the us legally are still being placed in cages.
But let’s have you answe some questions for once. Do you support locking children up in camps as a way to deter Illegal immigration?
And this is public displaced along the border, with a clear view of the children locked up like animals in cages. Do you feel that is appropriate and good for our country?
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On June 19 2018 06:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2018 06:21 ChristianS wrote:On June 19 2018 05:16 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 19 2018 05:14 Doodsmack wrote:On June 19 2018 04:54 PeTraSoHot wrote:On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
You asked if this was happening under Obama and people said no... But because immigrant parents were sometimes separated from their kids... attributing this to the Trump administration is "propagating false information?" Um... YES!?!?!? On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
I'm trying to think of an analogy to describe what a ridiculous equivalence that is. Let's suppose it came out during the Obama administration that Joe Biden had personally, viciously murdered hundreds, if not thousands of people since becoming Vice President, and was quite possibly the most heinous serial killer America had ever seen. But in response to conservative critics of Joe Bidens numerous, merciless killings, a liberal defender said "what, was this not going on under the Bush administration too?" When a conservative critic responds incredulously that no, it wasn't, the liberal cites an article about Cheney killing a friend in a hunting accident and decries the conservatives for their hypocrisy.
From the article you cited, the Obama administration occasionally separated children from their parents when they thought it was best for the child. The Trump administration, meanwhile, is doing it uniformly across the board without exception, meaning no regard for the children's well-being factors into the decision of whether to separate them from their parents. We could argue about whether the former was justified if you want. I think the latter is blatantly destructive to those children's futures. Do you agree? https://www.dailywire.com/news/31979/media-are-lying-about-trump-separating-illegal-ben-shapiroHave a look at the pictures in this article... It doesn't really fit your analogy. Furthermore, from the article: "Immigrants Seeking Asylum Are Being Punished For Seeking Asylum. This is plainly untrue as well. Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum aren’t actually illegally in the country – they’re not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. If, however, illegal immigrants cross the border illegally, the Trump administration now treats them as criminals." On June 16 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:
The rest of the questions: there is no justification for splitting up the families. It is purely done to inflict suffering on those seeking asylum to discourage other asylum seekers and to discourage the parents from fighting their deportation. On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
So Trump has begun a standard policy of prosecuting first-time undocumented immigrants, including asylum-seekers and parents, with felony charges I think your statements are misleading. But if that's wrong, I'd like to know how. The Trump administration purposely implemented a change in April that has resulted in many more families being separated than before. It’s being done as a deterrent. It’s attributable to the Trump admin. What is attributable to Trump is that it has increased and the "deterrent" aspect has been emphasized. What can't be attributed to him (exclusively) is the inhumane separations and caging of children. That was happening long before he got there and most of the people mad about it now had anything to say about it. I haven't done a good job of keeping myself informed about the plight of illegal immigrants, and certainly haven't done much of anything to be an activist on their behalf. If that's your accusation, plead guilty on both counts. But when a new policy of being crueler to groups people we weren't as cruel to before is implemented, that seems like a reasonable time to speak up about it, and I don't see why people shouldn't get to do so just because they haven't always been on a crusade for the cause. I don't have a problem with people speaking out about the cruel and inhumane treatment of immigrants, refugees, asylum seekers, minorities, or any oppressed group. I do have a problem with putting it all on Republicans and not acknowledging the underlying issues that allowed it to get this far. Keeps those folks in a partisan tit for tat that gets no one anywhere.
Fair enough. I don't think I ever said or implied "all current mistreatment of immigrants can be pinned solely on Republicans," but if I did, that's definitely not accurate. For instance, Radiolab recently did a 3-part series on the border (part one here), the conclusion of which was basically that ever since Operation Hold The Line under Clinton, we've had a border policy designed to force illegal immigrants to come through wild, dangerous mountain and desert territory that results in extremely high casualties. People die crossing the desert and get left behind, and their corpses are quickly consumed by the desert so we never have to see it. Maybe 10,000 people have died in the desert since then, and we forced them into that situation with a border policy that Democrats and Republicans have been happy enough to maintain.
But part of what makes this new policy a little more outrageous is that it's blatant and intentional. There's already so many complicated policy questions in immigration that make it hard to avoid tragedies like people dying in the desert, getting raped by unscrupulous traffickers who promised them safe passage, etc. I have no doubt that Obama and Bush and Clinton all implemented policies that caused a lot of suffering, either because they couldn't figure out a policy that would cause less, or because they thought the policy they implemented would help their reelection.
But this new policy is pretty clearly coming from a position of "we don't like all these asylum seekers being around, but judges won't let us just deport them, so we're gonna make it really unpleasant for them so maybe they won't request asylum." Then they turn around and try to use it to force Democrats to cave on unrelated immigration issues just to make the cruelty stop. Hurting people isn't just an unfortunate consequence of the policy, it was designed for that purpose from the start.
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On June 19 2018 04:54 PeTraSoHot wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
You asked if this was happening under Obama and people said no... But because immigrant parents were sometimes separated from their kids... attributing this to the Trump administration is "propagating false information?" Um... YES!?!?!? Show nested quote +On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
I'm trying to think of an analogy to describe what a ridiculous equivalence that is. Let's suppose it came out during the Obama administration that Joe Biden had personally, viciously murdered hundreds, if not thousands of people since becoming Vice President, and was quite possibly the most heinous serial killer America had ever seen. But in response to conservative critics of Joe Bidens numerous, merciless killings, a liberal defender said "what, was this not going on under the Bush administration too?" When a conservative critic responds incredulously that no, it wasn't, the liberal cites an article about Cheney killing a friend in a hunting accident and decries the conservatives for their hypocrisy.
From the article you cited, the Obama administration occasionally separated children from their parents when they thought it was best for the child. The Trump administration, meanwhile, is doing it uniformly across the board without exception, meaning no regard for the children's well-being factors into the decision of whether to separate them from their parents. We could argue about whether the former was justified if you want. I think the latter is blatantly destructive to those children's futures. Do you agree? https://www.dailywire.com/news/31979/media-are-lying-about-trump-separating-illegal-ben-shapiroHave a look at the pictures in this article... It doesn't really fit your analogy. Furthermore, from the article: "Immigrants Seeking Asylum Are Being Punished For Seeking Asylum. This is plainly untrue as well. Immigrants who come to points of entry to seek asylum aren’t actually illegally in the country – they’re not arrested. They’re processed through ICE, and their children stay with them. If, however, illegal immigrants cross the border illegally, the Trump administration now treats them as criminals." Show nested quote +On June 16 2018 05:45 Plansix wrote:
The rest of the questions: there is no justification for splitting up the families. It is purely done to inflict suffering on those seeking asylum to discourage other asylum seekers and to discourage the parents from fighting their deportation. Show nested quote +On June 17 2018 14:36 ChristianS wrote:
So Trump has begun a standard policy of prosecuting first-time undocumented immigrants, including asylum-seekers and parents, with felony charges I think your statements are misleading. But if that's wrong, I'd like to know how.
According to Shapiro, they are splitting up asylum seekers, which is new. His tangle of English is a bit deceptive imo.
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That bill seems good, but would cost a fuck ton of tax dollars. Estimates on the judges alone are 300 million(judges need staff to process cases). Congress didn’t want to spend money on disaster relief.
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RE: Separating families at the border and Trump in general.
We are being conditioned to expect this kind of treatment for anyone on the wrong side of Trump's whimsical shifts in policy.
“Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow.
...
“But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked — if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.
...
“And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you... [I]n my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose.
...
“Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.
-- Milton Mayer, "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45"
https://www.axios.com/secret-audio-reveals-migrant-children-screaming-after-separated-from-parents-1529352174-9d4c8e21-d41a-43d0-8016-cfa0b85254fd.html
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Also, we are on step 8 if anyone is keeping score of this living nightmare.
THE TEN STAGES OF GENOCIDE by Gregory H. Stanton, Ph.D., Research Professor in Genocide Studies and Prevention at George Mason University.
Stages to watch for:
CLASSIFICATION: Dividing culture into "us" vs. "them"
SYMBOLIZATION: Giving names or other symbols to the classifications. (Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to dehumanization.)
DISCRIMINATION: A dominant group uses law, custom, and political power to deny the rights of other groups. The powerless group may not be accorded full civil rights, voting rights, or even citizenship. The dominant group is driven by an exclusionary ideology that would deprive less powerful groups of their rights.
DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. The majority group is taught to regard the other group as less than human, and even alien to their society.
ORGANIZATION: Genocide is always organized, usually by the state, often using militias to provide deniability of state responsibility. Sometimes organization is informal or decentralized. Special army units or militias are often trained and armed.
POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Motivations for targeting a group are indoctrinated through mass media. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. The dominant group passes emergency laws or decrees that grants them total power over the targeted group. The laws erode fundamental civil rights and liberties. Targeted groups are disarmed to make them incapable of self-defense, and to ensure that the dominant group has total control.
PREPARATION: Plans are made for genocidal killings. National or perpetrator group leaders plan the “Final Solution” to the Jewish, Armenian, Tutsi or other targeted group “question.” They often use euphemisms to cloak their intentions, such as referring to their goals as “ethnic cleansing,” “purification,” or “counter-terrorism.” They build armies, buy weapons and train their troops and militias. They indoctrinate the populace with fear of the victim group. Leaders often claim that “if we don’t kill them, they will kill us,” disguising genocide as self-defense.
PERSECUTION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Their property is often expropriated. Sometimes they are even segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. They are deliberately deprived of resources such as water or food in order to slowly destroy them. Children are forcibly taken from their parents. The victim group’s basic human rights become systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement.
EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing.
DENIAL is the final stage that lasts throughout and always follows genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile.
I want everyone to think long and hard about this question: How long before these kids start disappearing and it's discovered they've been killed?
You might think that sounds insane, but let me ask you another question: One year ago if I had told you that the Trump administration would be actively enforcing a policy that separates children from their asylum-seeking parents and throws them into concentration camps, would you have believed it?
A detention officer in Texas was caught sexually molesting a 4 year old girl and threatened to deport her mother if she said anything. Once you start down the road to dehumanization, it can get to dark places very quick. We started down that road when Trump called Mexican immigrants rapists and it has only escalated from there.
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On June 19 2018 08:36 Plansix wrote:That bill seems good, but would cost a fuck ton of tax dollars. Estimates on the judges alone are 300 million(judges need staff to process cases). Congress didn’t want to spend money on disaster relief.
Get rid of a single carrier group and you can pay for it thrice over just from the savings in maintenance, assuming the costs for the judges are yearly. Buying one carrier less every 40 years would also pay for those 300 million a year. Or 200 tomahawk missiles. Which, coincidentally, is roughly the amount dropped onto Syria for barely any gain by Trump in two strikes in April and 2018 and April 2017.
It is amazing what you can find the money for if you really want to. Apparently, finding money for bombs and guns is easy. Finding money for humans is hard.
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ICE is now denying elected officials access to the children and covering up the windows with paper for reasons. The children have not been given access to anyone and have no ability to report abuse or seek legal counsel.
The White House is currently tweeting they did not create the policy that White House staff said they would create in April. And that their staff is currently saying is in place.
Reminds me of that Muslim ban.
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On June 19 2018 08:46 Ayaz2810 wrote:
Also, we are on step 8 if anyone is keeping score of this living nightmare.
THE TEN STAGES OF GENOCIDE by Gregory H. Stanton, Ph.D., Research Professor in Genocide Studies and Prevention at George Mason University.
Stages to watch for:
CLASSIFICATION: Dividing culture into "us" vs. "them"
SYMBOLIZATION: Giving names or other symbols to the classifications. (Classification and symbolization are universally human and do not necessarily result in genocide unless they lead to dehumanization.)
DISCRIMINATION: A dominant group uses law, custom, and political power to deny the rights of other groups. The powerless group may not be accorded full civil rights, voting rights, or even citizenship. The dominant group is driven by an exclusionary ideology that would deprive less powerful groups of their rights.
DEHUMANIZATION: One group denies the humanity of the other group. Members of it are equated with animals, vermin, insects or diseases. Dehumanization overcomes the normal human revulsion against murder. At this stage, hate propaganda in print and on hate radios is used to vilify the victim group. The majority group is taught to regard the other group as less than human, and even alien to their society.
ORGANIZATION: Genocide is always organized, usually by the state, often using militias to provide deniability of state responsibility. Sometimes organization is informal or decentralized. Special army units or militias are often trained and armed.
POLARIZATION: Extremists drive the groups apart. Hate groups broadcast polarizing propaganda. Motivations for targeting a group are indoctrinated through mass media. Laws may forbid intermarriage or social interaction. The dominant group passes emergency laws or decrees that grants them total power over the targeted group. The laws erode fundamental civil rights and liberties. Targeted groups are disarmed to make them incapable of self-defense, and to ensure that the dominant group has total control.
PREPARATION: Plans are made for genocidal killings. National or perpetrator group leaders plan the “Final Solution” to the Jewish, Armenian, Tutsi or other targeted group “question.” They often use euphemisms to cloak their intentions, such as referring to their goals as “ethnic cleansing,” “purification,” or “counter-terrorism.” They build armies, buy weapons and train their troops and militias. They indoctrinate the populace with fear of the victim group. Leaders often claim that “if we don’t kill them, they will kill us,” disguising genocide as self-defense.
PERSECUTION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Their property is often expropriated. Sometimes they are even segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. They are deliberately deprived of resources such as water or food in order to slowly destroy them. Children are forcibly taken from their parents. The victim group’s basic human rights become systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement.
EXTERMINATION begins, and quickly becomes the mass killing legally called “genocide.” It is “extermination” to the killers because they do not believe their victims to be fully human. When it is sponsored by the state, the armed forces often work with militias to do the killing.
DENIAL is the final stage that lasts throughout and always follows genocide. It is among the surest indicators of further genocidal massacres. The perpetrators of genocide dig up the mass graves, burn the bodies, try to cover up the evidence and intimidate the witnesses. They deny that they committed any crimes, and often blame what happened on the victims. They block investigations of the crimes, and continue to govern until driven from power by force, when they flee into exile.
I want everyone to think long and hard about this question: How long before these kids start disappearing and it's discovered they've been killed?
You might think that sounds insane, but let me ask you another question: One year ago if I had told you that the Trump administration would be actively enforcing a policy that separates children from their asylum-seeking parents and throws them into concentration camps, would you have believed it?
A detention officer in Texas was caught sexually molesting a 4 year old girl and threatened to deport her mother if she said anything. Once you start down the road to dehumanization, it can get to dark places very quick. We started down that road when Trump called Mexican immigrants rapists and it has only escalated from there.
step 8? that doesn't sound right, it sounds like you're misusing the system/incorrectly using its classifications based on a single text match without considering the larger context.
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TLADT24920 Posts
While this is an important topic and you guys are free to discuss it as you see fit, I would ask some of you to refrain from blowing things out of proportion so that discussion can continue to prosper in the thread and everyone can understand the other's position.
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PERSECUTION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Their property is often expropriated. Sometimes they are even segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. They are deliberately deprived of resources such as water or food in order to slowly destroy them. Children are forcibly taken from their parents. The victim group’s basic human rights become systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement.
I feel like we've always been here?
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On June 19 2018 09:02 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +PERSECUTION: Victims are identified and separated out because of their ethnic or religious identity. Their property is often expropriated. Sometimes they are even segregated into ghettoes, deported into concentration camps, or confined to a famine-struck region and starved. They are deliberately deprived of resources such as water or food in order to slowly destroy them. Children are forcibly taken from their parents. The victim group’s basic human rights become systematically abused through extrajudicial killings, torture and forced displacement. I feel like we've always been here?
News to me.
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EPT
