EPTI mean, with VPN, encryption and closed networks, pedophiles, terrorists etc. have had forums in the dark alleys of the web for decades, and it will likely never go away.
US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2994
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
I mean, with VPN, encryption and closed networks, pedophiles, terrorists etc. have had forums in the dark alleys of the web for decades, and it will likely never go away. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22158 Posts
To those who hoped the events of the last few days might make Republicans return to sanity, there is your answer. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
On January 09 2021 19:34 Gorsameth wrote: So McConnell is trying to shield all other Republicans from actually having to commit to any sort of vote on anything and has effectively stopped impeachment from being an option? To those who hoped the events of the last few days might make Republicans return to sanity, there is your answer. Or at least delay it into the first days of the Biden presidency, which will be harder to swallow for the Democrats. The Democrats have plenty of reasons to be angry and I think they will force the Republicans to vote later anyway. The timeframe was a problem in any case, and it seems like Trump is effectively stripped from power already. You only have power when people are doing your bidding. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7031 Posts
On January 09 2021 14:05 Nyxisto wrote: as I understand it he also can't run for president any more, which would probably significantly cut his efforts of grifting and agitating the pubilc for the next four years. I kind of doubt that such a fact would reach Trump supporters, would it actually be included into their narrative as anything other than “Trump is banned, support Trump to overturn the ban”? | ||
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farvacola
United States18856 Posts
AMELIA ISLAND, Fla. — Winds of change did not blow through a luxury seaside resort here as top Republicans huddled Friday to chart their party's future. After disappointing elections that cost the GOP the White House and control of the U.S. Senate — and after a mob incited by President Trump to protest his election defeat left five dead and his lame-duck administration in shambles — there was little appetite for a course correction, or for taking on the president. Ronna McDaniel, the chairwoman Trump installed four years ago as the titular head of the GOP, was reelected unanimously without a challenger. She lavishly praised Trump for attracting new voters in his losing campaign while thanking him for choosing her for the post. And Tommy Hicks Jr., a close ally of the president and his eldest son, overwhelmingly defeated three challengers to remain co-chair of the Republican Party with 70 percent of the vote. GOP members — flying from all over the country for the event — repeatedly praised Trump publicly and privately. Most were not interested in condemning his behavior on Wednesday, where he incited a mob of supporters to descend on the Capitol in anarchy, according to people present at the meeting, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe internal deliberations. Some members argued falsely that it was really “antifa” or other leftist groups responsible for the violence in the U.S. Capitol, people present said, and did not believe he had done anything wrong. Some members wanted a statement from the party that condemned violence on Wednesday to also embrace the president’s bogus claims of voter fraud, attendees said, and urged party officials to fight harder to help the president. The prayer to kick off the meeting included a plea for an election such as 2020 to never happen again. Attendees passed resolutions criticizing the news media and calling for attention to voter fraud, two of the president’s favored topics. One North Carolina official called for the reelection of the GOP’s officials partly so the news media could not say the party was in discord. A statement from a committeeman for the officer killed in the Capitol did not mention the president’s role in inciting the violence but said the Republican Party was the party of law and order. Instead of focusing on how Republicans lost states such as Georgia and alienated women and suburban voters, party officials largely centered on how Trump and the party had improved its showing among minority voters and the fact that more Republican women were now in the House of Representatives. “Our message clearly resonated, and the years-long investment we made was a big part of the reason President Trump earned the highest share of minority votes for a Republican in 60 years,” McDaniel said. It was an alternative reality away from Washington, a country and a White House reeling from the ambush on the Capitol aimed at overturning the results of the election on the president’s behalf. Members socialized in beachfront blue cabanas, sipped pricey frozen cocktails and roamed among the palm trees and into the wee hours of the morning at the Ritz Carlton bar, where a live band and buffet tables created a scene that resembled a wedding reception. At party retreat far from D.C. turmoil, Republicans still sing praises of Trump | ||
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EnDeR_
Spain2820 Posts
On January 09 2021 22:05 farvacola wrote: Reports like the one below are very worrying and are why I will likely never trust a self-identifying Republican again. What will it take for these schmucks to admit they've been playing with stupid populist fire all along? Something worse than the idiotic storming of the Capitol, it would seem. At party retreat far from D.C. turmoil, Republicans still sing praises of Trump They're still doing large gatherings and buffets when the pandemic is at its highest danger. Are they serious? | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9037 Posts
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EnDeR_
Spain2820 Posts
On January 09 2021 22:32 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: That's what you took away from that article? Doubling down on their approach is exactly what I would expect they would do. They did get more votes this time around and they made gains in the house. Is it horrifying? Yes, to me anyway. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
No more, "we need a strong Republican party" comments from Democrats. No more commitments not to embarrass their Republican colleagues from Democrats. Only raw, vicious, and adversarial politics where we pry enough of their electorate away from them that they can no longer continue to exist. If Democrats don't adopt a platform of radical change focusing on the working class then the Republicans will only come back stronger with Competent Trump 2.0. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9037 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8007 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:14 Zambrah wrote: And there's the confirmation that the Republican party is whole sale fascists. There is no excuse to support them now or unify with them. They need to be crushed, they need to be seen as an enemy. No more, "we need a strong Republican party" comments from Democrats. No more commitments not to embarrass their Republican colleagues from Democrats. Only raw, vicious, and adversarial politics where we pry enough of their electorate away from them that they can no longer continue to exist. If Democrats don't adopt a platform of radical change focusing on the working class then the Republicans will only come back stronger with Competent Trump 2.0. I don't think the working class wants what the working class needs, that's really the problem. When people who desperately need it are given a universal healthcare, they think it's for lazy black people and that it's socialism and literally Hitler. The Senators who would have no problem pushing a very aggressive agenda are in democratic strongholds. The places that matters to stay in power and beat Trump 2.0 are the places were those reforms would be the most needed but also where paradoxically they would be the least popular. It's really not easy unfortunately. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
I believe Trump won because he took discourse to their level and appeared to fight for them against a system that has been indifferent to the drastic Gilded Age economic inequality. If we talked to them, made them feel listened to and cared about and like their problems matter we might be able to rebuild a working class Democrat coalition. Obviously it's not easy, but everything the Democrats have been doing for decades to erode that working class Democrat coalition has to stop, and they need to go back and rebuild themselves to cater to them more. City liberals aren't going anywhere, any actual moderate Republicans won't be voting GOP for a bit (if they vote GOP after this within four years they were literally never not going to) so I think the best bet is be aggressive, communicate with rural communities and build a platform with the economically and politically disenfranchised at the core. I'm not sure how likely any of this is given how bought and sold politicians are, but this is the only viable path I see that doesnt see a Republican equilibrium reestablished. And given their hearty commitment to fascism that cannot fucking be allowed to happen. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8007 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:40 Zambrah wrote: A significant part of the working class just wants to be heard. There's no reason universal healthcare can't be pushed alongside things like a rural renewal program and a big increase to the minimum wage in order to appeal to disaffected working class voters. I believe Trump won because he took discourse to their level and appeared to fight for them against a system that has been indifferent to the drastic Gilded Age economic inequality. If we talked to them, made them feel listened to and cared about and like their problems matter we might be able to rebuild a working class Democrat coalition. Obviously it's not easy, but everything the Democrats have been doing for decades to erode that working class Democrat coalition has to stop, and they need to go back and rebuild themselves to cater to them more. City liberals aren't going anywhere, any actual moderate Republicans won't be voting GOP for a bit (if they vote GOP after this within four years they were literally never not going to) so I think the best bet is be aggressive, communicate with rural communities and build a platform with the economically and politically disenfranchised at the core. I'm not sure how likely any of this is given how bought and sold politicians are, but this is the only viable path I see that doesnt see a Republican equilibrium reestablished. And given their hearty commitment to fascism that cannot fucking be allowed to happen. Outside of the last paragrapher, I mostly agree. But again, it's an extremely hard task because again, the working class believes that stuff that would make their life really much better is awful socialism. That's where all the "radical" talks and the aggressively left wing packaging (I talk form, not content) is just stupid, and while I agree with all his policy proposals, I think Bernie's strategy was unsound. It's not about winning millenials, californians and well educated young people. It's about persuading the folks in poor towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania that a social safety net is for them too, and not only for some imaginary black welfare queen somewhere on the coast. Again. That's a tremendous task. I totally agree with you that the democrats need to pivot in their policies and communication and regain the working class. How they can achieve it, though I do not know, and I suspect the people that claim they do have no clue what they are talking about. It's extremely difficult. | ||
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KungKras
Sweden484 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: Outside of the last paragrapher, I mostly agree. But again, it's an extremely hard task because again, the working class believes that stuff that would make their life really much better is awful socialism. That's where all the "radical" talks and the aggressively left wing packaging (I talk form, not content) is just stupid, and while I agree with all his policy proposals, I think Bernie's strategy was unsound. It's not about winning millenials, californians and well educated young people. It's about persuading the folks in poor towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania that a social safety net is for them too, and not only for some imaginary black welfare queen somewhere on the coast. Again. That's a tremendous task. I totally agree with you that the democrats need to pivot in their policies and communication and regain the working class. How they can achieve it, though I do not know, and I suspect the people that claim they do have no clue what they are talking about. It's extremely difficult. To me it seems like american culture needs to be updated since the days of the red scare. The red scare actually made sense when there was a Soviet Union trying to subvert democracy with different shady tactics. Today, the far right and facism are the forces trying to subvert democracy, so we need to flip all of that red scare paranoia to be against the far right instead. | ||
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Slydie
1935 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8007 Posts
It's reaaaally hard to hear someone tell you : "sorry guys there is not much we can do for you, it's gonna suck big time" but that's a reality in many places; not because of political choices but because of the world - and technology - is moving forward and leaving certain industries, lifestyle and indeed places behind. The problem is that it's hard to fight populists who claim to have easy fix on problems that are out of the scope of political power. The most that can be done for mining communities and so on is a robust social safety net. There is no way those places are going to flourish again. It's the same where my parents live in France. It's a rural area in complete decline and people truly believe that the problems come from the elites in Paris and Brussels having abandoned them so they vote Le Pen en masse. Truth is, the area has almost nothing relevant to the modern world to offer. Fields and forests. The steel industry that made that place prosperous once upon a time are in India, and no one will bring them back. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26450 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: Outside of the last paragrapher, I mostly agree. But again, it's an extremely hard task because again, the working class believes that stuff that would make their life really much better is awful socialism. That's where all the "radical" talks and the aggressively left wing packaging (I talk form, not content) is just stupid, and while I agree with all his policy proposals, I think Bernie's strategy was unsound. It's not about winning millenials, californians and well educated young people. It's about persuading the folks in poor towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania that a social safety net is for them too, and not only for some imaginary black welfare queen somewhere on the coast. Again. That's a tremendous task. I totally agree with you that the democrats need to pivot in their policies and communication and regain the working class. How they can achieve it, though I do not know, and I suspect the people that claim they do have no clue what they are talking about. It's extremely difficult. Indeed, I’m unsure how we get there without some kind of cultural shift where everyone’s feelings and opinions being valid is separated from everyone’s ignorance being tolerated. I’m seeing it in real time with Brexit over here, things that were warned of before the vote and subsequently are happening, and were consistently waved off with charges of scaremongering. Now they are happening are people going to admit they were wrong? Fuck no they are not. It’s double down time! Our shelves in work are half empty due to Brexit-related headaches, which I have explained to customers, one the other day launched into a diatribe and called me a Remoaner among other things! It was political suicide but methinks Hillary Clinton was on to something with her deplorables remarks. Not on any individual basis, but as a mobilised collective we’re getting nothing but pain and societal damage, as much as some of their grievances are legitimate how they are expressed is well, less so. For all that Danglars took some flak in here for waiting until Trump was halfway across the Rubicon before disavowing him, he still did have that line in the sand. An extremely, extremely worryingly high amount of people still don’t think Trump and his allies have done anything wrong. | ||
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Zambrah
United States7393 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: Outside of the last paragrapher, I mostly agree. But again, it's an extremely hard task because again, the working class believes that stuff that would make their life really much better is awful socialism. That's where all the "radical" talks and the aggressively left wing packaging (I talk form, not content) is just stupid, and while I agree with all his policy proposals, I think Bernie's strategy was unsound. It's not about winning millenials, californians and well educated young people. It's about persuading the folks in poor towns in Ohio and Pennsylvania that a social safety net is for them too, and not only for some imaginary black welfare queen somewhere on the coast. Again. That's a tremendous task. I totally agree with you that the democrats need to pivot in their policies and communication and regain the working class. How they can achieve it, though I do not know, and I suspect the people that claim they do have no clue what they are talking about. It's extremely difficult. Christ this is long, I'm going to spoiler the lengthy shit, + Show Spoiler + Bernie's strategy was not about winning well educated young people and californians, it was about winning young people overall, the the disenfranchised (black, latinx, native american, poor, etc.) I'd say hes a role model for positive messaging we have to look to right now because there is no Easy Trump Figure to shit on now. Trump is gone next election cycle so the Democrat strategy of "Im not that guy!" is going to lead to a loss. What the Democrats need to do is take a REALLY good long hard look at what makes Trump appealing. If their answer is, "hes a racist and americans love racism," then they need to be tossed out of the room. They don't like him because hes racist (some do, but plenty of people theoretically dont agree with racism so thats not the selling point) its because hes unashamed, and unabashedly himself. Hes AUTHENTIC. Thats a trait that Democrats lack tremendously. He also speaks very simply, and speaks to things working class people want to hear and makes them feel fought for. Democrats aren't going to have any luck with their own loud mouth billionaire rando, so imo we need to focus on the Democrat version of that kind of candidate and campaign, and after Georgia it should be overwhelmingly clear that that'll be off the back of grassroots organizations. Bernie was great at getting down to the ground and organizing people to go out organize with and for him. He's a great example of grassroots campaigning. He has a LOT of baggage and was basically fighting the entirety of the DNC machine during the primaries and he made impressive headway. Imagine if instead of having to FIGHT the DNC he had actually had their support? This was a reckoning some Democrats were coming too after this election when they got their asses beat in the House and Senate compared to expectations. There was a moment where they said to themselves, "maybe we shouldn't force candidates through and let the organically popular ones develop with our support," and we HAVE GOT to make that a reality because when they force through candidates theyre basically killing young charismatic talent, and it reinforces that Establishment vibe that the working class doesn't like. If you take Bernies strategy and strip all of the baggage people have with the man (Democrat AND Republican.) then he is clearly an appealing path forward assuming we can safely discard what Democrat orthodoxy as mediocre and ineffective. Grassroots organization. Organic talent. Cooperation to beat the Republicans (not focusing on crushing the left and then hoping theres energy for beating the Republicans left after) Actively working for the working classes. Talk to the people who are disenfranchised with politics. None of this is easy. The Democrats are still dominated by old people who believe their ways are infallible and the only way to win is to court that mythical moderate swing voter, but this is one of the only ways I see that we can reliably wrest this new voting base Republicans are cultivating. And now is the perfect time to rip that base away, because they're going to be vulnerable right now. You won't get the Nazis, we dont want the Nazis, but the people on the Trump Train that just crashed into the Capitol that might be left feeling homeless after Trump is gone are ripe for the picking before Republicans find and build up their next Trump. Kinda TL;DR Take Bernies policies, reemphasize the class elements, the average working class vs. the Billionaires, and put it on some real growing talent and then spend all that Democrat money on the kind of Georgia grassroots campaigning in states like Ohio, and Arizona, and Georgia, and West Virginia, and all of these states that Democrats expected to carry in 2020. EDIT: Since I took too long, but we can still emphasize bringing Green jobs to these people, sure, coal is as good as dead, but a rural renewal program that focused on subsidizing industries in these rural areas is 100% possible and valid I mean, solar panels need to be made, batteries, etc. all sorts of stuff needs to be made in service of energy transitioning. Not only that but the digital economy means that it doesnt even matter where you live! You dont have to live in California to have a tech job, you can live anywhere and have a job in tech. The Coronavirus has revealed that a lot of work is perfectly fine when done from home. The building up of Texas as a new hub of tech jobs is a great example. Its also contributing to turning Texas blue. This is a doable avenue! This isn't a doomed solutionless scenario, we CAN bring job opportunities to these rural areas, they will be different jobs, but a rural renewal program entailing retraining programs with help place people in jobs in these sectors could be VERY effective. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26450 Posts
On January 10 2021 00:44 Biff The Understudy wrote: Yeah I totally agree. It's reaaaally hard to hear someone tell you : "sorry guys there is not much we can do for you, it's gonna suck big time" but that's a reality in many places; not because of political choices but because of the world - and technology - is moving forward and leaving certain industries, lifestyle and indeed places behind. The problem is that it's hard to fight populists who claim to have easy fix on problems that are out of the scope of political power. The most that can be done for mining communities and so on is a robust social safety net. There is no way those places are going to flourish again. It's the same where my parents live in France. It's a rural area in complete decline and people truly believe that the problems come from the elites in Paris and Brussels having abandoned them so they vote Le Pen en masse. Truth is, the area has almost nothing relevant to the modern world to offer. Fields and forests. The steel industry that made that place prosperous once upon a time are in India, and no one will bring them back. It’s almost as if global capitalism operates on demand and where cheap labour can be found. I do think more needs to be done, and more can be effectively done to regenerate and redistribute money and people to more rural areas, if not much else good Covid by necessity showed a much wider rollout of remote working is completely viable and has been held back by nothing but orthodox thinking. | ||
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