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On December 16 2020 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think Orwell nails it (in the complete quote). The word fascism is a mess, but there is a buried meaning that makes the word hard to replace. The alt-right is not "just" right wing authoritarian, or nationalist, or xenophobic, or militaristic. It's more than that, and the word that encompass this "more" is "fascist".
Deleuze described fascism as an ideology that has death at its core. The secret - or not so secret - motto of all fascists is "viva la muerte". Maybe it gives an element if answer.
Actuall there are plenty of words in natural languages that are impossible to define in standard way: Word --> definition
Words like "game", "fasicsm", "conservatism" are used in such a way that it cannot be defined using intensional definitions. Ludwig Wittgenstain wrote a lot about it. You need to use some other type of deifiniton like extensional definitions.
Here is more info about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definition
You should not confuse impossibility to define some term using intensional definitions with that word being meaningless.
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United States42685 Posts
On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past.
You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them.
Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it.
It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid.
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On December 17 2020 00:44 Silvanel wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2020 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think Orwell nails it (in the complete quote). The word fascism is a mess, but there is a buried meaning that makes the word hard to replace. The alt-right is not "just" right wing authoritarian, or nationalist, or xenophobic, or militaristic. It's more than that, and the word that encompass this "more" is "fascist".
Deleuze described fascism as an ideology that has death at its core. The secret - or not so secret - motto of all fascists is "viva la muerte". Maybe it gives an element if answer. Actuall there are plenty of words in natural languages that are impossible to define in standard way: Word --> definition Words like "game", "fasicsm", "conservatism" are used in such a way that it cannot be defined using intensional definitions. Ludwig Wittgenstain wrote a lot about it. You need to use some other type of deifiniton like extensional definitions. Here is more info about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DefinitionYou should not confuse impossibility to define some term using intensional definitions with that word being meaningless.
My point was that I think using the word "facist" in a political debate should be avoided. There are better and less divisive ways to talk about Trump, his actions and his supporters.
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United States42685 Posts
On December 17 2020 02:36 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 00:44 Silvanel wrote:On December 16 2020 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think Orwell nails it (in the complete quote). The word fascism is a mess, but there is a buried meaning that makes the word hard to replace. The alt-right is not "just" right wing authoritarian, or nationalist, or xenophobic, or militaristic. It's more than that, and the word that encompass this "more" is "fascist".
Deleuze described fascism as an ideology that has death at its core. The secret - or not so secret - motto of all fascists is "viva la muerte". Maybe it gives an element if answer. Actuall there are plenty of words in natural languages that are impossible to define in standard way: Word --> definition Words like "game", "fasicsm", "conservatism" are used in such a way that it cannot be defined using intensional definitions. Ludwig Wittgenstain wrote a lot about it. You need to use some other type of deifiniton like extensional definitions. Here is more info about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DefinitionYou should not confuse impossibility to define some term using intensional definitions with that word being meaningless. My point was that I think using the word "facist" in a political debate should be avoided. There are better and less divisive ways to talk about Trump, his actions and his supporters.
The goal isn’t to avoid being divisive about fascists. There are no more accurate words for them than fascist. If fascists don’t find your language on the subject of fascists divisive you’re doing something wrong.
Also, I’ve tried to not say anything for your last several posts but you keep writing “facist” which sounds like a prejudice against faces. You mean fascist.
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On December 17 2020 02:36 Slydie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 00:44 Silvanel wrote:On December 16 2020 20:21 Biff The Understudy wrote:
I think Orwell nails it (in the complete quote). The word fascism is a mess, but there is a buried meaning that makes the word hard to replace. The alt-right is not "just" right wing authoritarian, or nationalist, or xenophobic, or militaristic. It's more than that, and the word that encompass this "more" is "fascist".
Deleuze described fascism as an ideology that has death at its core. The secret - or not so secret - motto of all fascists is "viva la muerte". Maybe it gives an element if answer. Actuall there are plenty of words in natural languages that are impossible to define in standard way: Word --> definition Words like "game", "fasicsm", "conservatism" are used in such a way that it cannot be defined using intensional definitions. Ludwig Wittgenstain wrote a lot about it. You need to use some other type of deifiniton like extensional definitions. Here is more info about that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DefinitionYou should not confuse impossibility to define some term using intensional definitions with that word being meaningless. My point was that I think using the word "facist" in a political debate should be avoided. There are better and less divisive ways to talk about Trump, his actions and his supporters.
I think this point misses the fact that fascism is a real thing, though very uncommon. Fascism is basically ez mode for creating a political movement and is a big reason Trump managed to get so popular. People naturally LIKE fascism when it aligns with their tribalism, which is why we need to actively avoid it and squash it when we see it. When people say "Well I may not like the guy, but he's on my team and I'm definitely not voting for the other team", they are morally failing. This is a unique situation specific to fascism.
Things like super delegates were created specifically to prevent demagogues/fascists from taking over a party.
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The liberal tendency to prioritize civil discourse that is less divisive than its counterparts is a key component of fascism's genesis, so repeatedly calling for less divisive language without engaging with the tough problems that lie at the base of the paradox of tolerance is to engage in see no evil, hear no evil blinder games. Yes, unrigorous and slapdash accusations of fascism are bad, but as KwarK has pointed out numerous times already, there are obvious and significant issues that are neatly mapped out by basic notions of fascism, and pretending that we can discuss those without using a key and highly communicative word doesn't help anyone, save for fascists, of course. That's precisely the problem!
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Norway28665 Posts
On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid.
I'm on board with fascists being attached to strong individuals (and that this is a cornerstone of the ideology) and that exposing those 'strong' individuals as weak can be effective. But if it's just something 'some people are' then it feels like the % of fascists should be more constant over time and place. But this % wildly fluctuates - maybe not election to election, but country to country and 50 year period to 50 year period, absolutely. While not a massive group, I can't picture the Obama to Trump voters being actual fascists who decided take a break from being fascists to vote for a black guy promising hope and change before they went back to being fascists again.
Something must be the driving force of this change and of the reason why the % of fascists or fascist-enablers varies so much from country to country and time period to time period. And I don't think it's just whether there exists a dangerous demagogue who presents easy solutions. For one, I think there's also a requirement that an abject hopelessness and desperation exists.
Now, I think there are some reasons why the civil discourse-solution has fairly poor chances at succeeding in the US. Everything is so damn fragmented. There's no trust in media, and the media that deserves to be trusted has too small of a following. Lots of people have very legitimate reasons to be pissed off at society, the most prominent politicians haven't been model citizens who can inspire people, while higher level education for higher income individuals is great, lower level education for lower income individuals certainly isn't. Etc. But I really don't see turning 20~+% of the population into real enemies who need to be defeated as any type of solution.
Basically as long as the parallel information universes exist, then I don't see this whole bridging the gap thing happening. It's certainly not an easy effort. But I do think that we can actually go a long way if we create lasting, positive change, felt by the population, while speaking positively of them and to them. We can't just speak politely and hope they change, but we also can't present viable political solutions while insulting them.
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On December 17 2020 03:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid. Basically as long as the parallel information universes exist, then I don't see this whole bridging the gap thing happening. It's certainly not an easy effort.
As an example of this, if you were to list a set of qualities of a fascist leader, conservatives on this board would say "you're only calling him a fascist because he's not a democrat".
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United States42685 Posts
On December 17 2020 03:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid. I'm on board with fascists being attached to strong individuals (and that this is a cornerstone of the ideology) and that exposing those 'strong' individuals as weak can be effective. But if it's just something 'some people are' then it feels like the % of fascists should be more constant over time and place. But this % wildly fluctuates - maybe not election to election, but country to country and 50 year period to 50 year period, absolutely. While not a massive group, I can't picture the Obama to Trump voters being actual fascists who decided take a break from being fascists to vote for a black guy promising hope and change before they went back to being fascists again. Something must be the driving force of this change and of the reason why the % of fascists or fascist-enablers varies so much from country to country and time period to time period. And I don't think it's just whether there exists a dangerous demagogue who presents easy solutions. For one, I think there's also a requirement that an abject hopelessness and desperation exists. Now, I think there are some reasons why the civil discourse-solution has fairly poor chances at succeeding in the US. Everything is so damn fragmented. There's no trust in media, and the media that deserves to be trusted has too small of a following. Lots of people have very legitimate reasons to be pissed off at society, the most prominent politicians haven't been model citizens who can inspire people, while higher level education for higher income individuals is great, lower level education for lower income individuals certainly isn't. Etc. But I really don't see turning 20~+% of the population into real enemies who need to be defeated as any type of solution. Basically as long as the parallel information universes exist, then I don't see this whole bridging the gap thing happening. It's certainly not an easy effort. But I do think that we can actually go a long way if we create lasting, positive change, felt by the population, while speaking positively of them and to them. We can't just speak politely and hope they change, but we also can't present viable political solutions while insulting them.
The percentage of fascists is pretty constant. You just don’t always hear from them. There has always been a large number of Americans who desperately want a strong leader to remake their nation and defeat the great enemy. A majority of Americans supported the suppression of communist political activism when they were the great enemy and when rooting them out was seen as strength. They supported the state violence against the civil rights movement. They supported the state violence against the anti Vietnam movement. They supported the national guard at Kent State and in Chicago. They cheered Nixon on when he promised, Trump style, to abuse power to defeat his enemies. They supported the Patriot Act, the Department of Homeland Security, and the Bush Doctrine. They supported Guantanamo and waterboarding.
When you say “if a lot of Americans were really just fascists then we’d see constant fascism over time” all I can say is “yes”. And it’s not just Americans. The idea of a strongman that can restore national virtue will always be popular.
You point to the socioeconomic conditions, and in particular the failure of capitalism to fulfill the promises made to the American people, and that’s certainly a component of radicalization. But most of the fascists aren’t radicalized, fascism isn’t that radical. They’re just naturally attracted to the idea of a strongman. To go back 50 years, the fascists weren’t the disenfranchised racial underclass, they were the racial overclass. They don’t lack power, they have power and are afraid of threats to it.
I recall having a conversation with a former coworker in England who happily told me that we should nuke the Middle East. He didn’t think he was a radical and I doubt he knew how to use the internet. He didn’t want anything out of it, he just thought they were enemies and that the restraint of our leaders was weakness. The Qanon lunatics are more visible and their psychosis usually has more explicable roots but a lot of people just want to see whatever tribe they identify with use force to crush others. Not to settle any specific grievance, just because it can.
The real problem isn’t the minority of Proud Boy brownshirts who want to murder the political opponents of Trump. It’s the much larger group who would condone the murder of his political opponents if the executioner had a badge. The lunatic minority want to mail bombs to Obama. The much, much larger fascist minority want Trump to arrest him and sentence him to death. Think Fred Hampton, not MLK.
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Norway28665 Posts
I think in Norway today the number of potential fascists is at most in the 10% range, prolly more like 5%. I don't have a source for this and maybe I'm wrong, but it is what I think. I did tough manual labor at a warehouse for a decade and many of my colleagues were not particularly academically minded or remotely woke, but the 'nuke the middle east' types were completely absent. Those guys were still predominantly social democrats.
I agree that this number has probably always been much higher in the US, and I think the weak social fabric caused by a fetishization of competition and the designation of 'winners' and 'losers' - which from my perspective seems to permeate through all layers of American society, strongly contributes to peoples feeling of abject desperation that turns people towards strong leaders. And frankly, I think the UK is probably more like the US than it is like Norway in this particular area.
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United States42685 Posts
On December 17 2020 03:47 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I think in Norway today the number of potential fascists is at most in the 10% range, prolly more like 5%. I don't have a source for this and maybe I'm wrong, but it is what I think. I did tough manual labor at a warehouse for a decade and many of my colleagues were not particularly academically minded or remotely woke, but the 'nuke the middle east' types were completely absent. Those guys were still predominantly social democrats.
I agree that this number has probably always been much higher in the US, and I think the weak social fabric caused by a fetishization of competition and the designation of 'winners' and 'losers' - which from my perspective seems to permeate through all layers of American society, strongly contributes to peoples feeling of abject desperation that turns people towards strong leaders. And frankly, I think the UK is probably more like the US than it is like Norway in this particular area.
The UK is weird because of its history of empire, monarchy, and class. Obviously you get WW2/empire fetishists and there’s a long history of militarism for pride and profit but there’s other undercurrents too. The Great War created a lasting pacifist streak in the British national soul and class identity prevents rabid affiliation with the elites. It’s more paternalistic in the UK, the conservative petty devotion to order of the Home Counties rather than the bombastic American mass movements.
The same core tribalism that is a fundamental human failing exists, but it is manifested differently due to cultural differences. For example the Gurkhas are practically a right wing legend in the UK, the myth of noble savage knife wielding mountain warriors from the British Raj fighting for the crown. It’s weird and racially uncomfortable and its definitely militaristic and imperialistic but nobody is upset about their skin colour.
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I never gave serious thought to fascism in America before. Is this why Republicans are so in love with their "tough guy" pundits too? Bill O'Reilly, Sean Hannity, etc whose shtick it is to own the snowflake liberals and to put women in their place? Although come to think of it, the sensationalist liberal shows are also full of blowhards.
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It's best read with a highly critical eye, but Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem is a really good, if not dated, primer on how fascism creeps anywhere and everywhere.
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On December 17 2020 04:51 farvacola wrote:
It's best read with a highly critical eye, but Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem is a really good, if not dated, primer on how fascism creeps anywhere and everywhere.
Thanks added to list.
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On December 17 2020 05:43 Starlightsun wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 04:51 farvacola wrote:
It's best read with a highly critical eye, but Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem is a really good, if not dated, primer on how fascism creeps anywhere and everywhere. Thanks added to list.
Yeah, I can recommend too. Basically, you realize that to kill 6 millions people you only need a bunch of supremely mediocre people. Instead of an evil genius, one of the architects of the finale solution was just a small, spineless bureaucrat with no imagination and no idea of his own. It's a pathetic portrait, and it changed my way of seeing nazism.
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On December 17 2020 04:51 farvacola wrote:
It's best read with a highly critical eye, but Hannah Arendt's Eichmann in Jerusalem is a really good, if not dated, primer on how fascism creeps anywhere and everywhere.
Some of the best quotes from that book were in the introduction to the version I read:
"Evil need not be committed only by demonic monsters but with disastrous effect by morons and imbeciles as well. Especially, as we see in our own day, if their deeds are sanctioned by religious authority."
As a bonus, Ken Follet's Century Trilogy is historical fiction but he has a great way of exploring real events through the eyes of fictional characters. Here is one German character thinking about why her brother supported the Communist regime with the same fervor he supported the Nazi's, even though the two ideologies are ostensibly opposites:
"[Eric] supported the Soviet Regime as blindly as he had supported the Nazis. Carla had at first been baffled and infuriated, but now she saw a sad logic to it. Eric was one of those inadequate people who was so scared by life that they preferred to live under harsh authority. To be told what to do and what to think by government that allowed no dissent. They were foolish and dangerous but there were an awful lot of them." Ken Follett, Winter of the World.
I think both quotes are spot on describing a large subset of voters in the US.
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On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid.
At this point, fascist is just a generic term to describe the right/far right, while some european parties can be described at such, it's not really the case in usa where even the us white supremacist groups revendicates individualism and most if not all, of them are extremely defiants toward the state. You can argue that Trump is fascist-like because of his populist rhetoric and manners but calling him and his supporters fascists is just the wrong use of word.
Basically, the us far right don't pretend to erase 1789.
Anyway, those lines full of contempt which don't adress what is fascism nor adress the social condition which allows its emergence clearly show what is class privilege and that you're part of the problem.
"[Eric] supported the Soviet Regime as blindly as he had supported the Nazis. Carla had at first been baffled and infuriated, but now she saw a sad logic to it. Eric was one of those inadequate people who was so scared by life that they preferred to live under harsh authority. To be told what to do and what to think by government that allowed no dissent. They were foolish and dangerous but there were an awful lot of them." Ken Follett, Winter of the World.
Lol, it could be written by Jordan Peterson.
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On December 17 2020 06:42 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid. At this point, fascist is just a generic term to describe the right/far right, while some european parties can be described at such, it's not really the case in usa where even the us white supremacist groups revendicates individualism and most if not all, of them are extremely defiants toward the state. You can argue that Trump is fascist-like because of his populist rhetoric and manners but calling him and his supporters fascists is just the wrong use of word. Basically, the us far right don't pretend to erase 1789. Anyway, those lines full of contempt which don't adress what is fascism nor adress the social condition which allows its emergence clearly show what is class privilege and that you're part of the problem. Show nested quote +
"[Eric] supported the Soviet Regime as blindly as he had supported the Nazis. Carla had at first been baffled and infuriated, but now she saw a sad logic to it. Eric was one of those inadequate people who was so scared by life that they preferred to live under harsh authority. To be told what to do and what to think by government that allowed no dissent. They were foolish and dangerous but there were an awful lot of them." Ken Follett, Winter of the World.
Lol, it could be written by Jordan Peterson.
Jordan Peterson would've said they want the government to clean up their room for them. ;-)
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On December 17 2020 06:42 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2020 02:03 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 20:46 Liquid`Drone wrote:On December 16 2020 19:41 KwarK wrote:On December 16 2020 19:07 Liquid`Drone wrote:
For what it's worth, I entirely agree that Trump is a fascist. It was 'up for debate' until the election, but now the anti-democratic bend is indisputable. But 74 million americans voted for him. I don't believe that all those 74 million americans are actually fascists (even if a disheartening number of them are). What more is, you guys do have to coexist with those 74 million americans.
I'm not really expecting to bring Danglars back into the democrat mold, the genuine political differences seem too stark for that. However, I don't think the 'admit that you were wrong' or 'admit that Trump is a fascist' or 'realize that you are a fascist enabler through voting for Trump' are messages even remotely likely to sway anyone, rather, these are messages that further cements the differences and that keep pushing former Trump voters away from us. Virtually nobody listens to someone who insults them, and I hope we can avoid doing just that. That's all. Who is trying to sway fascists? That's never been how we've stopped them in the past. I dunno what you are advocating here? You're even more of a historian than I am, but my understanding is that we defeated fascism through militarily defeating the fascist countries. And then some countries did it with their own revolutions without outside aid, although that took a lot longer. What part of that solution is transferrable to the US today? If Trump voters are fascists, there are 74 million people who will need to be defeated. I don't even know what 'defeating' them would entail, here. If they're not all fascists, then we need to try to present a viable alternative to the fascist leadership they've become allured by. Then, my impression is that the viable alternative is never going to be the side that insults them for having been stupid in the past. You can’t reason fascists out of fascism. If they were reasonable people they wouldn’t be there in the first place. The ideology, and the individual at the heart of it, must be discredited. They worship the appearance of strength because to a fascist strength is the only true virtue. If we take some of the more notorious Trump quotes, that he likes war heroes that weren’t captured, that he grabs women by the pussy, that he would run into the building and kill a mass shooter, this much is evident. You discredit fascism by filming the way Trump cries for his life as he is dragged to the gibbet. That’s the only way. You have to address the lie at the heart of it. If all that they care about is strength then you win by being stronger. To a fascist words are something the weak use because they have no power, words are wasted on them. Those 74 million Americans will most likely still be fascist sympathizers after Trump’s body is cut down from the gallows but, with the focal point gone, they’ll be less involved in it. A large part of the population will always be vulnerable to fascism, people without a strong sense of morality and self will always latch onto an ideology that tells them that they’re part of something strong, that there is an enemy to blame, and a leader who will defeat them. This is a battle that will need to be fought over and over because you cannot easily make the people less vulnerable to it, you can only abort specific incarnations of it. It’s like a cult of the end days. People are always going to want to join them because they bring meaning. You can’t stop them from being that way, all you can do is stop each individual prophet before he breaks out the kool-aid. At this point, fascist is just a generic term to describe the right/far right, while some european parties can be described at such, it's not really the case in usa where even the us white supremacist groups revendicates individualism and most if not all, of them are extremely defiants toward the state. You can argue that Trump is fascist-like because of his populist rhetoric and manners but calling him and his supporters fascists is just the wrong use of word. Basically, the us far right don't pretend to erase 1789. Anyway, those lines full of contempt which don't adress what is fascism nor adress the social condition which allows its emergence clearly show what is class privilege and that you're part of the problem. Show nested quote +
"[Eric] supported the Soviet Regime as blindly as he had supported the Nazis. Carla had at first been baffled and infuriated, but now she saw a sad logic to it. Eric was one of those inadequate people who was so scared by life that they preferred to live under harsh authority. To be told what to do and what to think by government that allowed no dissent. They were foolish and dangerous but there were an awful lot of them." Ken Follett, Winter of the World.
Lol, it could be written by Jordan Peterson.
A pretty simple application of the cliche holding that history doesn't repeat, it rhymes, can help to explain why there are clear analogies despite differences. Individualism qua federalism is the deus ex machina of US politics, it is integral to the functioning of US society such that it's inevitable that some riff on it is necessarily a component of any populist platform, a dynamic that can easily be likened to the way in which the imprimatur of the Holy Roman Empire and its many constituent kingdoms was utilized by Nazi historical myth making. Regional and local identities are full of pressure points that can be pushed on by power willing to play fast and loose with history in service of making a point, coherent individualism or not. Add in the remnants of the never put to bed Red Scare here and constant fear mongering of socialism channeled towards conservative white populations, and it's hard to avoid wrestling with all the parallels. There are differences, sure, but the similarities are striking enough that the comparison should be followed as a means of understanding how an ignoramus like Trump gets so much support. (and yes, any rigorous analysis of the problem requires good materialism, there are obvious and prominent issues of class that are a clear part of the problem).
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Northern Ireland25316 Posts
As per the creep of fascism, I wonder if the general cultural framing of the Nazis both in terms of curriculum and culture has made people rather complacent.
They’re so often presented as these evil, monstrous figures and thus almost divorced from the real, and the potential for such things to happen again.
Dovetailing neatly with that is a tendency to ram home how bad the Nazis, or Stalin were while feathertouching what our own nations have themselves done in the past that was heinous.
You end up with this scenario where people think something like the Nazis couldn’t happen again, and certainly not in MY country and a huge amount of complacency sets in.
Not sure what you do about such sympathisers, I would contend that kid gloves don’t appear particularly effective though.
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EPT
