|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary.
Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate.
So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else?
You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump?
EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone).
Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race.
EDIT2: He lost by every metric in the primary.
That's actually not true. He crushed Hillary in the under 40 crowd.
|
On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary.
The problem for the DNC at the moment is not that Sanders lost by three million out of thirty million votes, but that he only lost by three million out of thirty million votes. There were a lot of people who voted for Sanders in the primary who became disaffected because of the way the DNC handled the primary overall. There were a lot of them in states like, say, Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin. In those states, Trump's margin was less than 5% of the votes Sanders received in the Democrat primaries.
The DNC not only had the appearance of bias in the primary, but there was at least circumstantial evidence of them putting their thumb on the scale. We don't need to rehash this, but the point here is that if the DNC's behavior caused at least five percent of people who voted for Sanders to not vote, vote for third party candidates like Jill Stein, or even in some cases vote Trump, that made a real difference in the election.
Sanders lost the primary, but he's still very popular among the Democrat coalition, and the DNC is taking action every step of the way to push people who are fans of Sanders into not voting for Democrats in elections.
It's especially terrible because Sanders is most popular among young voters, so by driving them away from the party the DNC is shooting itself in the foot for decades to come.
More succinctly, Democrats could be trying to win back disaffected Sanders voters, but they're trying to run candidates who can win over moderate Republicans, and the steps they're taking to make sure those candidates are nominated is making their problem with young progressives worse.
EDIT: Also, by the logic of "Bernie had his run, he lost in the primary," Clinton shouldn't have run in 2016 because she had her run and lost in the primary in 2008.
|
On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. Popularity is easy when your the outsider promising to fix everything. I consider his popularity numbers meaningless at this point. This has been explained to you several times since the last election.
He is free to run as an independent. Everyone is free to run. And yes I would consider him being a potential spoiler, that doesn't mean he can't run. And yes you would be dumb voting for him if he ran as independent (assuming your vote matters (lolz US system)) Voting independent in a contested state is voting against your own interest since it makes it more likely for the other side to win. Which is why the US is effectively a 2 party system.
If he is allowed to run in the Democratic primary then sure, he can try. I don't expect him to win tho. He lost to someone that lost to Trump after all. How bad is that...
I have no clue who else might be in the running and I honestly don't care. Especially this far out and especially in the US where running on sensible policy does nothing.
You know what, sure I have a suggestion for the DNC. Go full meta and run Oprah or Dwayne Johnson.
|
On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016?
Bernie's time is over. Who will take up his mantle?
|
On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. EDIT2: That's actually not true. He crushed Hillary in the under 40 crowd.
I'd think if Bernie wants to run he should run in the Democratic primary. The scenario you seem to be floating is Bernie saying "screw primaries, I'm just running independent" and then expecting the whole Democratic field to shrug their shoulders and say "well, let's just not have a Democratic nominee and maybe run in 2024." That's ridiculous. It's replacing a partially undemocratic system (voters vote in primaries, but superdelegates exist) with a wholly undemocratic one (the elites all decide Bernie is the candidate, and voters don't get a say).
There's a good chance I'd vote for him in the primary, but an independent run would be an attempt to circumvent the whole primary process and try to force everybody on the left to vote for him (you may not like me, but I'll split the vote if you pick anybody else!). I think he's smarter than that
|
On June 10 2018 08:05 IgnE wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? Bernie's time is over. Who will take up his mantle?
Nina Turner is probably the next in line from that particular camp. I'm all for it not being Bernie in general, but as you've seen already the opposition to Bernie comes from those who oppose the policy as much as the person anyway. After seeing how hard it was to get Bernie any attention whatsoever, there's not really a lot of options out there.
Bernie is going to have to be 20% up on everyone else for months of campaigning before Democrats/liberals stop blaming Bernie for their unpopularity or his popularity on not being scrutinized.
The most viable from my "acceptably radical" group would be Ajamu Baraka. I am still holding out hope that the Embassies and Kanye get back to me on pitching one of those celebrity pardons to Trump for Assata Shakur so she can run but I'm not too confident in that one.
On June 10 2018 08:09 ChristianS wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. EDIT2: He lost by every metric in the primary. That's actually not true. He crushed Hillary in the under 40 crowd. I'd think if Bernie wants to run he should run in the Democratic primary. The scenario you seem to be floating is Bernie saying "screw primaries, I'm just running independent" and then expecting the whole Democratic field to shrug their shoulders and say "well, let's just not have a Democratic nominee and maybe run in 2024." That's ridiculous. It's replacing a partially undemocratic system (voters vote in primaries, but superdelegates exist) with a wholly undemocratic one (the elites all decide Bernie is the candidate, and voters don't get a say). There's a good chance I'd vote for him in the primary, but an independent run would be an attempt to circumvent the whole primary process and try to force everybody on the left to vote for him (you may not like me, but I'll split the vote if you pick anybody else!). I think he's smarter than that
They couldn't be much more clear about not wanting him running in their primary or winning their nomination. If he ran independent it wouldn't be him giving the Democrats the finger it would be him ignoring the one they are quite obviously still giving him.
|
On June 10 2018 08:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. Popularity is easy when your the outsider promising to fix everything. I consider his popularity numbers meaningless at this point. This has been explained to you several times since the last election.
Those two statements don't follow each other logically. Even if we accept that popularity is easy for him, it doesn't make it meaningless when the discussion is an election.
|
Then when do the voters get to decide who they want? Who is Bernie to say "I'm your candidate, like it or not"? Again, I like Bernie pretty well, but saying "screw your Democratic nominee, either vote for me or I split the vote and Trump wins" would be so blatantly undemocratic I'd have trouble supporting him even if the establishment did roll over and say "fine, we're just not running anyone."
|
On June 10 2018 08:15 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 08:09 ChristianS wrote:On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. EDIT2: He lost by every metric in the primary. That's actually not true. He crushed Hillary in the under 40 crowd. I'd think if Bernie wants to run he should run in the Democratic primary. The scenario you seem to be floating is Bernie saying "screw primaries, I'm just running independent" and then expecting the whole Democratic field to shrug their shoulders and say "well, let's just not have a Democratic nominee and maybe run in 2024." That's ridiculous. It's replacing a partially undemocratic system (voters vote in primaries, but superdelegates exist) with a wholly undemocratic one (the elites all decide Bernie is the candidate, and voters don't get a say). There's a good chance I'd vote for him in the primary, but an independent run would be an attempt to circumvent the whole primary process and try to force everybody on the left to vote for him (you may not like me, but I'll split the vote if you pick anybody else!). I think he's smarter than that They couldn't be much more clear about not wanting him running in their primary or winning their nomination. If he ran independent it wouldn't be him giving the Democrats the finger it would be him ignoring the one they are quite obviously still giving him. While I agree that this change is for a large part because of Bernie lets also not forget that the Republican Party has been taken hostage, first by the Tea Party and now by Trump, rending their incredibly position of control of all 3 branches hobbled.
I'd bet the GOP leadership wished they had super delegates and a limit on who could run the primary so they could keep control of their own party.
|
On June 10 2018 08:25 ChristianS wrote:
Then when do the voters get to decide who they want? Who is Bernie to say "I'm your candidate, like it or not"? Again, I like Bernie pretty well, but saying "screw your Democratic nominee, either vote for me or I split the vote and Trump wins" would be so blatantly undemocratic I'd have trouble supporting him even if the establishment did roll over and say "fine, we're just not running anyone."
I wasn't suggesting that Democrats not have a primary, but it would be them splitting the vote if come convention time their nominee is in third place.
|
On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016?
I agree with you on this, but honestly, you just had this argument pointed back at you but instead of Sanders it was Manchin.
|
Bernie may have some idealistic policies, but when it comes to elections he strikes me as pragmatic. I really couldn't imagine him running independent and handing Trump a free win. He was on board with endorsing Hillary despite everything, after all. He wouldn't jerk himself off with an independent run if it meant the country would be worse off because of it.
|
On June 10 2018 08:48 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? I agree with you on this, but honestly, you just had this argument pointed back at you but instead of Sanders it was Manchin.
I'm just curious what the argument against applying it to both is. I don't mind rejecting both.
|
Bernie could run if he wanted. Just join the party today, problem solved. 2020 is a ways off.
If this gets to the floor, Trump will need have to veto it. I don’t know if they can get veto proof majorities, but there is a chance they could.
|
Leave the conference early, reverse the signing of the communique after you leave, and insult the closest ally you've got on twitter. A true show of strength that will make US internationally respected again. /s
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/g7-leaders-final-communique-1.4699658
Is congress going to do anything? Are they really supporting this president attacking Canada now?
|
On June 10 2018 08:52 Tachion wrote:
Bernie may have some idealistic policies, but when it comes to elections he strikes me as pragmatic. I really couldn't imagine him running independent and handing Trump a free win. He was on board with endorsing Hillary despite everything, after all. He wouldn't jerk himself off with an independent run if it meant the country would be worse off because of it.
Agreed. The guy seems to be reasonably pragmatic on social issues & in terms of governance policy. I thought that in the 2016 campaign that Trump won that Bernie was ok enough. "New deal" at the factory so there is a small raise, in other news.
|
On June 10 2018 05:41 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 03:54 Wulfey_LA wrote:On June 10 2018 02:47 iamthedave wrote:On June 10 2018 01:14 Kyadytim wrote:On June 10 2018 00:36 Nebuchad wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The next time liberals talk about unity in the democratic party they should be laughed outside the room. They're literally changing the rules because they're afraid the guy from the other side of our "unified front" might win. The problem Democrats have right now is that every time people forget about how they meddle in the primaries to get their preferred candidates elected or the DNC/DCCC make a reasonable case that meddling is normal, they do something like this which is a naked attempt to keep the party as a whole in its current position just far enough to the left of the Republican party that they can run on being better than Republicans. Sounds to me like we're gearing up for Trump pt 2: electric boogaloo. If Bernie's popularity holds into the next election cycle, that seems to me like a devastating blow for the Democratic Party. Way worse than just Trump winning. That'll be them deliberately having kicked out the guy their own voters want to vote for. That's the kind of thing that can kill a party outright. Do you have any evidence for this claim? There was a primary in 2016 and Bernie lost by millions of votes. Check the Bernie endorsed candidates. Note that his challenger endorsements versus ESTABLISHMENT-NEOLIBERAL-SOROS-SHILLS have consistently lost. https://ballotpedia.org/Endorsements_by_Bernie_SandersIf he is so great, and democrats love him so much, why aren't his endorsements doing anything? Of course we have evidence for this claim. The issue has been polled, both with the entire population and with democrats. The picture painted of his popularity is consistent and clear. The very fact that the DNC feels like they have to do something like this is further evidence. They're not doing it because they fear Ted Cruz is going to run as a democrat, are they. Why aren't his endorsements doing anything? First, that's not the case; progressives have been doing pretty well, Our Revolution has something like 40% winrate which is amazing for a group created in 2016. You also have to keep in mind the additional context that the progressive candidate is going to be the underdog in every race by virtue of having less money, not having the party on their side, and sometimes even having the party actively work against them.
So much overwhelming polling evidence that you couldn't cite anything. I post three links with real data, you post .... nothing? Your argument relies on handicapping the 'progressive' candidate in every race so their losses are not quite losses. But when does that handicapping stop? When do they start to win? Cause they aren't winning yet (see the actual links I posted).
|
On June 10 2018 07:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2018 07:19 Gorsameth wrote:On June 10 2018 07:06 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 10 2018 00:27 Gorsameth wrote:On June 09 2018 23:42 GreenHorizons wrote:The Democratic National Committee (DNC) adopted a new rule on Friday aimed at keeping outsider candidates like Bernie Sanders from trying to clinch the Democratic presidential nomination in 2020.
The new rule, adopted by the DNC’s Rules and Bylaws Committee, requires all Democratic presidential candidates to be a member of the Democratic Party, Yahoo News reported.
A presidential candidate running for the Democratic nomination must be a member of the party, accept the Democratic nomination and “run and serve” as a member.
Sanders, who has maintained his status as an Independent, fought a tough primary race for the Democratic nomination against eventual Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton in 2016. thehill.comSo if Bernie decides to run as an independent does that make the Democrats the potential spoilers if they don't fall back and support Bernie anyway? There's no way anyone they nominate will have better numbers than Bernie or be more likely to win. The most shocking thing is that this wasn't a rule in the first place. And no, Bernie is no Democrat and the Democrats have no obligation to follow him. You can keep dreaming about his numbers but he already tried and lost. You seem unusually emotionally invested in this position for a foreigner? Do the Democrats have an obligation to at least get out of his way if he's the best chance to remove Trump or do they have another option that wouldn't make them as bad or worse than Bernie and his supporters in 2016? My only investment is being tired of you talking about him. No the Democrats have no obligation to get out of the way of anyone any more then Bernie is 'obligated' to not run as an independent. Again, Bernie had his run. He lost by every metric in the primary. Bernie seems like the obvious top pick since he's overwhelmingly more popular than Democrats as a party, and pretty much any other candidate. So presumably you think Bernie should run independent if he chooses to run and that doesn't make him a spoiler since he'll be polling better than anyone else? You clearly don't want to see him win the nomination, but who would be in your top 3 (one or more of them) and what advantage do you see them having over Bernie when it comes to beating Trump? EDIT: (I'm asking Gor these questions, but they are open to anyone). Should also add Bernie isn't my top pick but more of a lesser evil choice when my preferred candidates don't materialize in the race. EDIT2: That's actually not true. He crushed Hillary in the under 40 crowd.
Wait is Bernie wasn't your top pick who was/is currently?
|
On June 10 2018 10:15 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote:Leave the conference early, reverse the signing of the communique after you leave, and insult the closest ally you've got on twitter. A true show of strength that will make US internationally respected again. /s http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/g7-leaders-final-communique-1.4699658Is congress going to do anything? Are they really supporting this president attacking Canada now?
Great, so we're making enemies out of our allies now. The President is a petulant child, and he has no idea what he's doing. He's just in office to do whatever damage he can, and peace out afterward. This is insane.
|
70 year old alliances are going to be flushed down the drain. If congress doesn’t act and reign him in, forgien leaders are just going to assume our country is not longer a reliable partner. Trump is more interested in the optics of a meeting with NK than keeping our oldest allies. We have never been weaker.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
