EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 2758
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Starlightsun
United States1405 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Uldridge
Belgium5232 Posts
I don't know why you take Danglars' post as a personal insult. He's talking about the fact that polarization is killing democracy. @Danglars Trump is a deeply flawed character who was never going to change anything. I understand why he was elected though. And I don't dismiss anyone necessarily voting for him. He's the amalgamation of everything wrong with politics in the USA and that's exactly the point of electing him. Why would anyone want to vote for the completely dishonest, crooked, phony establishment, which was Hillary Clinton at the time. It's not just the Democratic party, though, it's both parties. There's something rotten in how US politics (and for that matter, I'll extrapolate it to Western politics, because over here in Western Europe, things are becoming increasingly polarized as well) is done and it needs to change fast. Trump was probably one of the only hopes for these people because he made it seem like he could change things for them. It must feel awful to feel disregarded all the time, wanting things to change for the better, but your voice not being heard. Or not having the means to even make your voice heard. I never commented on "Things Trump does or did" or why people actually elected him in office, because I think it's a very complex issue and it's a symptom of a very troubling time. I don't know how to pinpoint it exactly, but it's becoming increasingly alarming. The average joe reside both on the left and the right. I was commenting on Simberto and Belisarius, that they (who imo seem to be central to left leaning, but I could be wrong) were guilty of being stuck in their higher education bubble (which is an assumption, but I think it's not an unreasonable one, so I could be wrong), simply trying to make them understand that tabloids exist because there's a market for them. No one trained in critical thought takes these things seriously, yet they're everywhere. There are tabloid, pop journalism bullshit things for the left and the right to be consumed everywhere, and all it does is keep the people pinned down in their polarized opinions. There's a disgusting system operating here and it needs to be completely dismantled imo. I think that we, left and right alike, can at least agree something is completely wrong here and things should change, rather sooner than later. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On October 18 2020 04:00 Danglars wrote: It is comforting to see you've learned the lesson about anonymous sources. If more could've done this in the disastrous leak campaign against Trump for the last 4-5 years, the country would be in much better shape. I'd trust the average joe than a random selection of the people on this forum or running this website. The people concerned with the apparent lack of critical thought in the public at large have proven incapable of applying it when a big orange idiot is composing mean tweets on twitter. I think that's absolutely a problem with reducing a complex situation to a falsely simple one: you don't have to worry about Trump's election, because it wasn't legitimate--you don't have to worry about the people that voted Trump, because they were either deceived, or are racist ingrates--you don't have to worry about the norms people are destroying to stop Trump, because he's always worse in that respect, and the country's peril is so imminent to justify all destructive actions. I've lost count at how many people think themselves to possess critical analytical abilities, and play into propagandistic viewpoints of how the other side thinks and acts. That's why I said I think you're in an echo chamber that justifies the conclusion that your tribe possesses a higher degree of analytic faculties, and it isn't morally above the various echo chambers you decry. You mean the things being verified with multiple investigations from the FBI, CIA or congress ? Some of them being true, some being false ? The multiple non-anonymous books from nearly everyone that left the big boss ? Including his family ? The information from meetings with russians offering dirt (that were not even properly investigated btw) ? Those emails looked legit to me, fucking Trump junior tweeted them lol. Or the anonymous leaks about tax returns ? Do you believe them forged ? I have an issue with anonymous information when it comes from someone who HAS BEEN and IS BEING investigated for being the recipient of foreign disinformation campaigns, and who even seeked those out. The information itself is grossly insufficient and could have been forged by a 12yo. This is my field of work. I do have an issue when the "public at large" elect racist assholes that have no self-restraint and unhinged behaviour, because it IS causing immediate damage not only to your country, but to mine as well. The system we have might not be perfect and has issues of its own, but I am worried when all over the globe, people elect pieces of shit whose only purpose is to destroy what is and manipulate everything to their own benefit. Bolsonaro, Trump, Erdogan, Duterte, Lukashenko, (Johnson more or less). These guys don't care about their country, only about their power and legacy, and rip through laws to enpower themselves, in defiance of everyone. And somehow, they still have support from a decent part of the public. That is what I fear. They should be disqualified at a glance. People should not want to elect people that look or speak like them. I realise full well that someone like me is not fit to run a country, only crash it to the ground. I expect my leader, the top civil servant, to be the best the country can offer. Seems like it's too much to ask. I could care less if people elect progressives, liberals or conservatives, provided they are decent people. If they represent the will of the majority to go backwards on society, well that doesn't please me but I have no qualms with it. It's how it works. Destroying everything though... | ||
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Simberto
Germany12038 Posts
On October 18 2020 04:03 Erasme wrote: Don't worry, i don't expect a single rationnal thought from you either. I don't believe you're uninformed either, just willfully ignorant.  Btw generalizing people who don't agree with you as "leftists" is pretty funny. I'm quite certain you can see in the European thread those same people disagreeing on multiples subjects. But when all those people are telling you that you are supporting a racist fearmongering populist, you file that under an "echo chamber". If you are standing at the very right edge, everyone else is a leftist. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
On October 18 2020 04:16 JimmiC wrote: Authenticity clearly matters, this is why people are questioning the source. Giuliani's past actions have made anything coming from him super suspect. Knowing who the source is once the material is authenticated does not matter, knowing who the source is when the material is not authenticated matters a lot. Thats also why it matters that persons on the emails are confirming their authenticity. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States24398 Posts
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iPlaY.NettleS
Australia4456 Posts
On October 18 2020 04:36 Nouar wrote: An anonymous source of course. Glad to see the WH Press Secretary going on a campaign. Is she bankrolled by the Trump campaign or by taxpayers ? At least it's from her private account. Glad to see she is taking anonymous sources for verified information. Just answer me one question then. Do you think Biden was being truthful in this video when he stated he withheld a billion dollars from the Ukrainian government until they fired a state prosecutor? Some of the people here claiming this is a nothingburger have got a real big reality check coming. My opinion, the emails are real and the FBI is investigating as we speak. And the story i've been hearing is these hard drives came from whistleblowers in China, opposed to the CCP.Which makes sense considering there are 3 HD's worth of stuff and it's hard to believe anyone would be so stupid as to send such material to a computer repair shop.This is why Giuliani says China already has this and more in his interviews about the situation. | ||
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StasisField
United States1086 Posts
On October 18 2020 06:05 GreenHorizons wrote: Tara Reid wasn't debunked. Her credibility was attacked (as is typical), and there was no formal legal case to prosecute, so people made up their minds about how they would treat it. Yeah. If anything, Tara Reid's accusation had more supporting evidence to back up her claims than the accusations made against Kavanaugh. The way people reacted to both of those cases revealed a lot about how much a person lets partisan politics dictate their views in my opinion. | ||
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Nouar
France3270 Posts
On October 18 2020 06:09 iPlaY.NettleS wrote: Just answer me one question then. Do you think Biden was being truthful in this video when he stated he withheld a billion dollars from the Ukrainian government until they fired a state prosecutor? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIehxrWP7kw Some of the people here claiming this is a nothingburger have got a real big reality check coming. My opinion, the emails are real and the FBI is investigating as we speak. And the story i've been hearing is these hard drives came from whistleblowers in China, opposed to the CCP.Which makes sense considering there are 3 HD's worth of stuff and it's hard to believe anyone would be so stupid as to send such material to a computer repair shop.This is why Giuliani says China already has this and more in his interviews about the situation. You mean when Besides Biden's threat over the $1 billion in aid, the International Monetary Fund threatened to delay $40 billion in aid for similar reasons. Without pressure from Joe Biden, European diplomats, the International Monetary Fund and other international organizations, Shokin would not have been fired, said Daria Kaleniuk, co-founder and executive director of the Anti Corruption Action Centre in Kiev. A corrupt prosecutor, it's even alleged in the "emails" that that prosecutor was trying to get bribes from Burisma... Biden was not alone in wanting that guy fired, all Europe and the IMF and others were pushing for him to get the boot. What's the issue there ? There's a decent chance these emails are real, I'm totally ok with the FBI investigating, but if this is all that's in those... I mean, the worst alleged for now is that Biden may have briefly met a Burisma executive. Which is not a crime or indication or corruption in itself. How many executives or associates of his children have Trump met, do you think ? Trump and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani claim Biden did this to quash Shokin's investigation into Ukraine's largest gas company, Burisma Holdings, and its owner, oligarch Mykola Zlochevsky. They say this benefited Biden's son, Hunter Biden, who served on Burisma's board of directors – for which he was paid $50,000 a month. Their assertion is contradicted by former diplomatic officials who were following the issue at the time. Burisma Holdings was not under scrutiny at the time Joe Biden called for Shokin's ouster, according to the National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine, an independent agency set up in 2014 that has worked closely with the FBI. Shokin's office had investigated Burisma, but the probe focused on a period before Hunter Biden joined the company, according to the anti-corruption bureau. The investigation dealt with the Ministry of Ecology, which allegedly granted special permits to Burisma between 2010 and 2012, the agency said. Hunter Biden did not join the company until 2014. https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/ You can even read in those "emails" that the corrupt prosecutor was keeping the investigation more or less ongoing to try and extort money from the company, and Burisma exec wanted to plead their case. Everyone was on the same page about Victor Shokin. I'm not worried about anything coming from Burisma. What exactly is the crime there ? And administration boards are choke full of people that lack the required skills, as they are mainly peddling influence and lobbying. I despise that, it happens all over the world, but sadly it's not a crime. There MAY be smoke about the alleged chinese retrocommissions to "the big guy" if it is indeed Joe. However, that's a loooooooooooong stretch, and Joe would have needed to be involved in policy decisions related to that company or China. Was that the case somewhere ? Remember also that russian military-intelligence hackers successfully breached burisma's servers in January, and analysts expected some kind of emails as an october surprise. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
On October 18 2020 06:05 GreenHorizons wrote: Tara Reid wasn't debunked. Her credibility was attacked (as is typical), and there was no formal legal case to prosecute, so people made up their minds about how they would treat it. Her credibility was destroyed by things she herself did. Biden's behavior around women is creepy and a bit problematic, but it's nothing closed to what she alleged. No other accusers have come forth alleging anything other than what we can see him do on video. She flat out lied under oath dozens of times, claimed she has a degree from a nonexistent program at a university (she doesn't), and cited having worked for Biden as part of her qualifications to be an expert witness (in a positive way, to be clear). She's now under criminal investigation for perjury. Her complaint in 93 also never alleged any sexual harassment. She also praised Biden on twitter many times before the allegations. When it initially came out I looked into it, but there are way too many holes and flaws in her story. edit: Oh, and her lawyer quit after this stuff came out, which was the final nail in the coffin for me on her credibility.` On October 18 2020 06:30 StasisField wrote: Yeah. If anything, Tara Reid's accusation had more supporting evidence to back up her claims than the accusations made against Kavanaugh. The way people reacted to both of those cases revealed a lot about how much a person lets partisan politics dictate their views in my opinion. This is patently false. Kavanaugh's accuser had roughly similar levels of evidence, without any of the credibility issues. Kavanaugh's evidence for defense was also much worse than Biden's as well. (Who keeps calendars like that?). Kavanaugh got rushed through without an actual investigation, while Biden is under the eye of every reporter (and kgb agent and GOP oppo researcher) in the sun for 2-3 years before running in order to dig up dirt on him. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27464 Posts
On October 18 2020 04:00 Danglars wrote: It is comforting to see you've learned the lesson about anonymous sources. If more could've done this in the disastrous leak campaign against Trump for the last 4-5 years, the country would be in much better shape. I'd trust the average joe than a random selection of the people on this forum or running this website. The people concerned with the apparent lack of critical thought in the public at large have proven incapable of applying it when a big orange idiot is composing mean tweets on twitter. I think that's absolutely a problem with reducing a complex situation to a falsely simple one: you don't have to worry about Trump's election, because it wasn't legitimate--you don't have to worry about the people that voted Trump, because they were either deceived, or are racist ingrates--you don't have to worry about the norms people are destroying to stop Trump, because he's always worse in that respect, and the country's peril is so imminent to justify all destructive actions. I've lost count at how many people think themselves to possess critical analytical abilities, and play into propagandistic viewpoints of how the other side thinks and acts. That's why I said I think you're in an echo chamber that justifies the conclusion that your tribe possesses a higher degree of analytic faculties, and it isn't morally above the various echo chambers you decry. As per the denizens of this particular thread this feels a gross misreading of general sentiment, or indeed divergences of opinion. As an observation of someone on a ‘vote blue no matter who’ Facebook page or something it’s absolutely accurate. I don’t recall too much chat about Trump’s election not being legitimate. Plenty about the electoral college being a bad system that should be reformed, but nothing that under the conditions of the day that that victory was illegitimate. People can make up their own minds, this constant bemoaning of echo chambers and being fair and understanding other’s views is only a worthwhile endeavour if the ‘other side’ are working around a consistent ideological framework of difference whereupon negotiation can occur. Case in point the ‘you can’t nominate a Supreme Court justice, the people need their voice heard at the polls first’. From my point of view I don’t think that’s a bad argument, indeed I don’t particularly like how the Supreme Court and lifetime appointments work as a roll of the roulette wheel depending what President is in office. Then a complete flip on that and commentators doing arcane incantations to show it’s actually totally different this time etc. If your buddy continually cheats in your card games do you withhold from that activity or give in to his whining about you not being a good sport? Just to take one of innumerable examples. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States24398 Posts
Her credibility was destroyed by things she herself did. Well they typically don't fabricate the attacks from whole cloth. It's usually their promiscuity or anything they've lied about before or misremembered. Granted I can recognize that doesn't help people believe her about Biden. Biden's behavior around women is creepy and a bit problematic More than "a bit" imo and that's really the end of it for me whether her allegations about Biden's behavior are true or not. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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Danglars
United States12133 Posts
On October 18 2020 07:08 WombaT wrote: As per the denizens of this particular thread this feels a gross misreading of general sentiment, or indeed divergences of opinion. As an observation of someone on a ‘vote blue no matter who’ Facebook page or something it’s absolutely accurate. I don’t recall too much chat about Trump’s election not being legitimate. Plenty about the electoral college being a bad system that should be reformed, but nothing that under the conditions of the day that that victory was illegitimate. People can make up their own minds, this constant bemoaning of echo chambers and being fair and understanding other’s views is only a worthwhile endeavour if the ‘other side’ are working around a consistent ideological framework of difference whereupon negotiation can occur. Case in point the ‘you can’t nominate a Supreme Court justice, the people need their voice heard at the polls first’. From my point of view I don’t think that’s a bad argument, indeed I don’t particularly like how the Supreme Court and lifetime appointments work as a roll of the roulette wheel depending what President is in office. Then a complete flip on that and commentators doing arcane incantations to show it’s actually totally different this time etc. If your buddy continually cheats in your card games do you withhold from that activity or give in to his whining about you not being a good sport? Just to take one of innumerable examples. I think you'd change your mind on the "feels a gross misreading" if you reread any span of 100 pages of 2020 or 2019. These sorts of things only "stick out" to people that don't agree with them--people that agree with them skim over it and have an extremely limited ability to grasp perspective. Secondly, you're barking up the wrong tree regarding echo chambers. You should examine both your beliefs and other people's beliefs critically. It doesn't matter if you think the "other side" is working around "a consistent ideological framework." You're just more likely to fail to diagnose your echo chambers. It's a bad shortcut in logic, which is to say, not logic at all. Compare to alt-universe WombaT: "I don't need to examine liberals echo chambers, because they fail to cohere around a consistent ideological framework. On the other hand, my side (on the right) is fair and understanding." You're both wrong in your presumptions and ought to pursue investigation and analysis. | ||
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NewSunshine
United States5938 Posts
On October 18 2020 07:47 Mohdoo wrote: Major right wing outlets, such as fox, drudge and breitbart don't seem to be making a big deal out of the laptop bullshit. If they aren't biting much, it's definitely nothing And they're outlets that generally don't mind running with conspiracy theory BS to boot. Daily reminder that if a story is legitimately on the up and up, more outlets than just one tabloid will pick it up. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On October 18 2020 09:18 Doodsmack wrote: I'm seeing multiple headlines on breitbart and yesterday it was the lead headline on the fox website. Clinton emails were front page every single day for all outlets. What I am saying is that as time goes on, it gets more and more "yikes". Fox wants nothing more than Biden to lose. If they are playing it safe, that's a really strong signal. | ||
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