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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2743

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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!

NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.

Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.


If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8153 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 07:46:11
October 14 2020 07:44 GMT
#54841
On October 14 2020 16:00 Silvanel wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 06:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 14 2020 05:50 Elroi wrote:
I don't get it. It seems to me that there are so many viable ways to attack him. All of this misquoting and intentional misunderstanding just makes mainstream media look like the bad guys and Trump as the paradoxical hero.

On October 14 2020 05:14 Arghmyliver wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:44 Doodsmack wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:04 NewSunshine wrote:
It sounds a little different coming from a leader who has both refused to condemn and encouraged the violent parts of his base. It also sounds different coming from someone who incessantly accuses his opposition of perpetrating election fraud, and who told the Proud Boys to "stand by". So there's some context.


The "stand by" comment was highly suspect but some of this is just liberal media misinformation. For example the Charlottesville comment. Look at what Trump actually said:

Reporter: “Do you think that what you call the alt-left is the same as neo-Nazis?”

Trump: “Those people — all of those people — excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.”

Reporter: “The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest —”

Trump: “Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves — and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”


He first defined the two "sides" as those opposed to taking down the statue and those favoring it. Thus he defined the white supremacists as a subset of one of the two sides. He then said there very fine people on both sides, which is to say that some among the pro-statue side were fine people. That is not the same as saying that some white supremacists are very fine people. If you believe it is the same, you've basically been duped by misinformation. Oh and by the way, he also said this:

I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.


Robert E Lee was a general in the army of the Confederate States of America who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon was also a general who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon never went to war to defend slavery. Lee did. That's extremely different.

Napoleon was kind of a dick, everyone agrees on that but his legacy encompass a lot, lot, lot more than his policies on slavery.

Statues of Lee were erected by white supremacist groups such as the Sister of the Confederacy; there is absolutely no ambiguity over what they are meant to celebrate,

I don't think ANY "fine person" would march to defend a statue of Lee.


I will add that Poland mentions Napoleon in its national anthem (in positive light), his legacy is vast and at least parts of it are very positive.

He is certainly an extremely complex character. But NOBODY looks at a statue of Napoleon and think "fuck yeah, white power". If anything people learn that one of his many flaws as a person were his racial views and one of his biggest crimes his restauration of slavery. But his role in history is soooo much more important than that.

I personally see him as a very negative figure with some contingent positive traits. But he built modern France and inspired generations after him and that's really something worth celebrating. He is a giant in our history.

If on the other hand you erect a statue of Lee and if you go demonstrate to preserve it, you absolutely are making a statement about white supremacy. Lee didn't write the Code Civil, didn't spread enlightenment across Europe and isn't responsible for building most of modern america's institution. His only role in history was to fight for rebels who betrayed the country to protect their rights to enslave people. No "fine person" celebrates that.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 09:17:02
October 14 2020 08:03 GMT
#54842
On October 14 2020 14:38 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 12:37 Nevuk wrote:
On October 14 2020 11:14 Starlightsun wrote:
Does anyone know the history of abortion becoming such a central issue to GOP voters? I seem to hazily recall that it's relatively recent and involved the party trying to build up its base.

Was picked as a unifying conservative issue by evangelical thought leaders after opposing desegregation became too unpalatable to business interests in the latter half of the 70s and early 80s. Before this it was viewed as something only catholics cared about (who were disliked by many conservatives for not being WASPs).

This is why Roe V Wade was a 7-2 decision : almost nobody cared about abortion at the time unless they were Catholics.

This isn't why the current group of anti-abortionists are against it, but it's why many of the "focus on the family" types started promoting it in the 70s. It's one of those things where the history doesn't really matter too much though. It's not like the pastors came out and said this was why they starting opposing abortion to their congregations, who are the actual voters and current politicians that we're talking about, and the current generation really does mostly do oppose it for the reasons they say they do. (Except for Pat Robertson, who is still kicking and active politically, most of the people we're talking about have been dead or irrelevant for decades).

Connecting right to life to opposition to desegregation and business interests? I might as well allege that killing babies still in the womb was a unifying political issue for democrats, and supported many of their secret desires to use it for eugenics (as it was with the founder of Planned Parenthood). What a very slanted view for you to take. We don't have to behave here like the rest of the political world outside accusing everybody of having darkness in their hearts.

The current operating law is planned parenthood vs casey, and that was no 7-2 easy “no one cares” decision. It changed core parts of roe vs wade.

Basically, up to the Obama years, there was substantial support for pro-life among Democrats, represented for instance by Democrats for Life, that encouraged heavy restrictions for abortion and protections for unborn children. You may or may not remember that pro-life carve ours in Obamacare had to be made to preserve Democratic votes in favor of it. It was well towards becoming a more unipolar issue in the 2000s. The remaining pro-life Democrats were largely swept out of power in the slaughter of the 2010 midterms.

It’s just very hard to be pro-life and in the Democratic Party these days, and candidates that are pro-life face stiff challenges, as they did in this year’s primaries. The whole cultural sorting has exacerbated the tensions on issues like abortion and gun rights. I think the increasing ideological conformity within parties is mostly to blame.


It's nice that you can still ignore the economics and social benefits of abortions after all this time. Yikes.
You can blame the increasing ideological conformity, or admit that people simply started to understand the subject better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Amui
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Canada10567 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 09:17:23
October 14 2020 09:16 GMT
#54843
On October 14 2020 17:03 Erasme wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 14:38 Danglars wrote:
On October 14 2020 12:37 Nevuk wrote:
On October 14 2020 11:14 Starlightsun wrote:
Does anyone know the history of abortion becoming such a central issue to GOP voters? I seem to hazily recall that it's relatively recent and involved the party trying to build up its base.

Was picked as a unifying conservative issue by evangelical thought leaders after opposing desegregation became too unpalatable to business interests in the latter half of the 70s and early 80s. Before this it was viewed as something only catholics cared about (who were disliked by many conservatives for not being WASPs).

This is why Roe V Wade was a 7-2 decision : almost nobody cared about abortion at the time unless they were Catholics.

This isn't why the current group of anti-abortionists are against it, but it's why many of the "focus on the family" types started promoting it in the 70s. It's one of those things where the history doesn't really matter too much though. It's not like the pastors came out and said this was why they starting opposing abortion to their congregations, who are the actual voters and current politicians that we're talking about, and the current generation really does mostly do oppose it for the reasons they say they do. (Except for Pat Robertson, who is still kicking and active politically, most of the people we're talking about have been dead or irrelevant for decades).

Connecting right to life to opposition to desegregation and business interests? I might as well allege that killing babies still in the womb was a unifying political issue for democrats, and supported many of their secret desires to use it for eugenics (as it was with the founder of Planned Parenthood). What a very slanted view for you to take. We don't have to behave here like the rest of the political world outside accusing everybody of having darkness in their hearts.

The current operating law is planned parenthood vs casey, and that was no 7-2 easy “no one cares” decision. It changed core parts of roe vs wade.

Basically, up to the Obama years, there was substantial support for pro-life among Democrats, represented for instance by Democrats for Life, that encouraged heavy restrictions for abortion and protections for unborn children. You may or may not remember that pro-life carve ours in Obamacare had to be made to preserve Democratic votes in favor of it. It was well towards becoming a more unipolar issue in the 2000s. The remaining pro-life Democrats were largely swept out of power in the slaughter of the 2010 midterms.

It’s just very hard to be pro-life and in the Democratic Party these days, and candidates that are pro-life face stiff challenges, as they did in this year’s primaries. The whole cultural sorting has exacerbated the tensions on issues like abortion and gun rights. I think the increasing ideological conformity within parties is mostly to blame.


It's nice that you can still ignore the economics and social benefits of abortions after all this time. Yikes.

I mean I did the math at some point in this thread before. Abortions, even if you consider the fetus as a person, kill about as many people people per year as guns do(within a few 10's of % percentage points in US).

Since abortions at minimum have some benefit to society(say fetus with high chance of downs, or for medical reasons), whereas death via gun is pretty much always a net negative to society(and that gunshot survivors which outnumber the deaths), I would argue that abortions have a more positive impact on society than guns do. Purely from a pragmatic perspective, abortion is better for society than gun worship.
Porouscloud - NA LoL
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22492 Posts
October 14 2020 09:29 GMT
#54844
If the 'pro-life' camp was genuinely pro-life they would give more then 0 shits about the baby once its out of the womb. Until that changes I find it hard to take their arguments seriously.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10937 Posts
October 14 2020 09:34 GMT
#54845
Imho the issue on this is, that US-Politics makes this seem like such a clear "Yes" or "No" issue, while it clearly isn't. All nuance has been lost on this topic.
I mean, the right is calling pro choice people "baby murderers", accusing them of wanting to harvest babies and even wanting to kill "viable" newborns out of convenience. I doubt you find any leftist/democrat/whatever aside from clear psychopaths that are for any of these things.

Roe vs Wade also doesn't help much to solve this in an acceptable way, because it also lacks nuance (from what i understand). But if the alternative is "no abortions at all, ever", pro choice people will obviously defend it.

Alone that this issue is pictured as a fight between "pro life" and "pro choice" people is ridiculously stupid.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 11:15:31
October 14 2020 11:14 GMT
#54846
SCOTUS cases tend to lack nuance as a matter of course given their discussions of rights at the highest level of review. Roe v. Wade specifically is a unique decision though, and I don't think it lacks nuance, so I'm curious what you mean Velr. Here's the core of the court's holding:
+ Show Spoiler +

The Constitution does not explicitly mention any right of privacy. In a line of decisions, however, going back perhaps as far as Union Pacific R. Co. v. Botsford, 141 U.S. 250, 251, 11 S.Ct. 1000, 1001, 35 L.Ed. 734 (1891), the Court has recognized that a right of personal privacy, or a guarantee of certain areas or zones of privacy, does exist under the Constitution. In varying contexts, the Court or individual Justices have, indeed, found at least the roots of that right in the First Amendment, Stanley v. Georgia, 394 U.S. 557, 564, 89 S.Ct. 1243, 1247, 22 L.Ed.2d 542 (1969); in the Fourth and Fifth Amendments, Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 8-9, 88 S.Ct. 1868, 1872-1873, 20 L.Ed.2d 889 (1968), Katz v. United States, 389 U.S. 347, 350, 88 S.Ct. 507, 510, 19 L.Ed.2d 576 (1967); Boyd v. United States, 116 U.S. 616, 6 S.Ct. 524, 29 L.Ed. 746 (1886), see Olmstead v. United States, 277 U.S. 438, 478, 48 S.Ct. 564, 572, 72 L.Ed. 944 (1928) (Brandeis, J., dissenting); in the penumbras of the Bill of Rights, Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S., at 484-485, 85 S.Ct., at 1681-1682; in the Ninth Amendment, id., at 486, 85 S.Ct. at 1682 (Goldberg, J., concurring); or in the concept of liberty guaranteed by the first section of the Fourteenth Amendment, see Meyer v. Nebraska, 262 U.S. 390, 399, 43 S.Ct. 625, 626, 67 L.Ed. 1042 (1923). These decisions make it clear that only personal rights that can be deemed 'fundamental' or 'implicit in the concept of ordered liberty,' Palko v. Connecticut, 302 U.S. 319, 325, 58 S.Ct. 149, 152, 82 L.Ed. 288 (1937), are included in this guarantee of personal privacy. They also make it clear that the right has some extension to activities relating to marriage, Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1, 12, 87 S.Ct. 1817, 1823, 18 L.Ed.2d 1010 (1967); procreation, Skinner v. Oklahoma, 316 U.S. 535, 541-542, 62 S.Ct. 1110, 1113-1114, 86 L.Ed. 1655 (1942); contraception, Eisenstadt v. Baird, 405 U.S., at 453-454, 92 S.Ct., at 1038-1039; id., at 460, 463465, 92 S.Ct. at 1042, 1043-1044 (White, J., concurring in result); family relationships, Prince v. Massachusetts, 321 U.S. 158, 166, 64 S.Ct. 438, 442, 88 L.Ed. 645 (1944); and child rearing and education, Pierce v. Society of Sisters, 268 U.S. 510, 535, 45 S.Ct. 571, 573, 69 L.Ed. 1070 (1925), Meyer v. Nebraska, supra.
77

This right of privacy, whether it be founded in the Fourteenth Amendment's concept of personal liberty and restrictions upon state action, as we feel it is, or, as the District Court determined, in the Ninth Amendment's reservation of rights to the people, is broad enough to encompass a woman's decision whether or not to terminate her pregnancy. The detriment that the State would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Specific and direct harm medically diagnosable even in early pregnancy may be involved. Maternity, or additional offspring, may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by child care. There is also the distress, for all concerned, associated with the unwanted child, and there is the problem of bringing a child into a family already unable, psychologically and otherwise, to care for it. In other cases, as in this one, the additional difficulties and continuing stigma of unwed motherhood may be involved. All these are factors the woman and her responsible physician necessarily will consider in consultation.
78

On the basis of elements such as these, appellant and some amici argue that the woman's right is absolute and that she is entitled to terminate her pregnancy at whatever time, in whatever way, and for whatever reason she alone chooses. With this we do not agree. Appellant's arguments that Texas either has no valid interest at all in regulating the abortion decision, or no interest strong enough to support any limitation upon the woman's sole determination, are unpersuasive. The Court's decisions recognizing a right of privacy also acknowledge that some state regulation in areas protected by that right is appropriate. As noted above, a State may properly assert important interests in safeguarding health, in maintaining medical standards, and in protecting potential life. At some point in pregnancy, these respective interests become sufficiently compelling to sustain regulation of the factors that govern the abortion decision. The privacy right involved, therefore, cannot be said to be absolute. In fact, it is not clear to us that the claim asserted by some amici that one has an unlimited right to do with one's body as one pleases bears a close relationship to the right of privacy previously articulated in the Court's decisions. The Court has refused to recognize an unlimited right of this kind in the past. Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 197 U.S. 11, 25 S.Ct. 358, 49 L.Ed. 643 (1905) (vaccination); Buck v. Bell, 274 U.S. 200, 47 S.Ct. 584, 71 L.Ed. 1000 (1927) (sterilization).
79

We, therefore, conclude that the right of personal privacy includes the abortion decision, but that this right is not unqualified and must be considered against important state interests in regulation.


Here's some further explanation:
+ Show Spoiler +

It should be sufficient to note briefly the wide divergence of thinking on this most sensitive and difficult question. There has always been strong support for the view that life does not begin until live birth. This was the belief of the Stoics.56 It appears to be the predominant, though not the unanimous, attitude of the Jewish faith.57 It may be taken to represent also the position of a large segment of the Protestant community, insofar as that can be ascertained; organized groups that have taken a formal position on the abortion issue have generally regarded abortion as a matter for the conscience of the individual and her family.58 As we have noted, the common law found greater significance in quickening. Physicians and their scientific colleagues have regarded that event with less interest and have tended to focus either upon conception, upon live birth, or upon the interim point at which the fetus becomes 'viable,' that is, potentially able to live outside the mother's womb, albeit with artificial aid.59 Viability is usually placed at about seven months (28 weeks) but may occur earlier, even at 24 weeks.60 The Aristotelian theory of 'mediate animation,' that held sway throughout the Middle Ages and the Renaissance in Europe, continued to be official Roman Catholic dogma until the 19th century, despite opposition to this 'ensoulment' theory from those in the Church who would recognize the existence of life from the moment of conception.61 The latter is now, of course, the official belief of the Catholic Church. As one brief amicus discloses, this is a view strongly held by many non-Catholics as well, and by many physicians. Substantial problems for precise definition of this view are posed, however, by new embryological data that purport to indicate that conception is a 'process' over time, rather than an event, and by new medical techniques such as menstrual extraction, the 'morning-after' pill, implantation of embryos, artificial insemination, and even artificial wombs.62
93

In areas other than criminal abortion, the law has been reluctant to endorse any theory that life, as we recognize it, begins before life birth or to accord legal rights to the unborn except in narrowly defined situations and except when the rights are contingent upon life birth. For example, the traditional rule of tort law denied recovery for prenatal injuries even though the child was born alive.63 That rule has been changed in almost every jurisdiction. In most States, recovery is said to be permitted only if the fetus was viable, or at least quick, when the injuries were sustained, though few courts have squarely so held.64 In a recent development, generally opposed by the commentators, some States permit the parents of a stillborn child to maintain an action for wrongful death because of prenatal injuries.65 Such an action, however, would appear to be one to vindicate the parents' interest and is thus consistent with the view that the fetus, at most, represents only the potentiality of life. Similarly, unborn children have been recognized as acquiring rights or interests by way of inheritance or other devolution of property, and have been represented by guardians ad litem.66 Perfection of the interests involved, again, has generally been contingent upon live birth. In short, the unborn have never been recognized in the law as persons in the whole sense.

X
94

In view of all this, we do not agree that, by adopting one theory of life, Texas may override the rights of the pregnant woman that are at stake. We repeat, however, that the State does have an important and legitimate interest in preserving and protecting the health of the pregnant woman, whether she be a resident of the State or a non-resident who seeks medical consultation and treatment there, and that it has still another important and legitimate interest in protecting the potentiality of human life. These interests are separate and distinct. Each grows in substantiality as the woman approaches term and, at a point during pregnancy, each becomes 'compelling.'
95

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in the health of the mother, the 'compelling' point, in the light of present medical knowledge, is at approximately the end of the first trimester. This is so because of the now-established medical fact, referred to above at 149, that until the end of the first trimester mortality in abortion may be less than mortality in normal childbirth. It follows that, from and after this point, a State may regulate the abortion procedure to the extent that the regulation reasonably relates to the preservation and protection of maternal health. Examples of permissible state regulation in this area are requirements as to the qualifications of the person who is to perform the abortion; as to the licensure of that person; as to the facility in which the procedure is to be performed, that is, whether it must be a hospital or may be a clinic or some other place of less-than-hospital status; as to the licensing of the facility; and the like.
96

This means, on the other hand, that, for the period of pregnancy prior to this 'compelling' point, the attending physician, in consultation with his patient, is free to determine, without regulation by the State, that, in his medical judgment, the patient's pregnancy should be terminated. If that decision is reached, the judgment may be effectuated by an abortion free of interference by the State.
97

With respect to the State's important and legitimate interest in potential life, the 'compelling' point is at viability. This is so because the fetus then presumably has the capability of meaningful life outside the mother's womb. State regulation protective of fetal life after viability thus has both logical and biological justifications. If the State is interested in protecting fetal life after viability, it may go so far as to proscribe abortion during that period, except when it is necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother.
98

Measured against these standards, Art. 1196 of the Texas Penal Code, in restricting legal abortions to those 'procured or attempted by medical advice for the purpose of saving the life of the mother,' sweeps too broadly. The statute makes no distinction between abortions performed early in pregnancy and those performed later, and it limits to a single reason, 'saving' the mother's life, the legal justification for the procedure. The statute, therefore, cannot survive the constitutional attack made upon it here.


Jane ROE, et al., Appellants, v. Henry WADE

As far as SCOTUS decisions go, I rather like the way Roe v. Wade is written
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
iamthedave
Profile Joined February 2011
England2814 Posts
October 14 2020 11:47 GMT
#54847
On October 14 2020 18:34 Velr wrote:
Imho the issue on this is, that US-Politics makes this seem like such a clear "Yes" or "No" issue, while it clearly isn't. All nuance has been lost on this topic.
I mean, the right is calling pro choice people "baby murderers", accusing them of wanting to harvest babies and even wanting to kill "viable" newborns out of convenience. I doubt you find any leftist/democrat/whatever aside from clear psychopaths that are for any of these things.

Roe vs Wade also doesn't help much to solve this in an acceptable way, because it also lacks nuance (from what i understand). But if the alternative is "no abortions at all, ever", pro choice people will obviously defend it.

Alone that this issue is pictured as a fight between "pro life" and "pro choice" people is ridiculously stupid.


How can you have nuance when the actual Vice President of the actual United States has proudly said 'we will see the end of abortion in our times'?

Unfortunately, it isn't pictured as a fight between those two groups, it actually is a fight between them.
I'm not bad at Starcraft; I just think winning's rude.
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8153 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 12:32:36
October 14 2020 12:29 GMT
#54848
Well having religious fundamentalists is government and the supreme court is not a great starting point to have a nuanced, rational argument.
On October 14 2020 18:29 Gorsameth wrote:
If the 'pro-life' camp was genuinely pro-life they would give more then 0 shits about the baby once its out of the womb. Until that changes I find it hard to take their arguments seriously.

... and they would be the first advocates of sex education. I mean, that should be your absolute top priority if you are against abortion. But it's a matter of power over women's bodies and religious bigotry, and derives from no care whatsoever for the well being - or the life of - of anyone.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 12:41:11
October 14 2020 12:37 GMT
#54849
It's worth pointing out that Justice William Brennan, typically regarded as one of if not the most left-leaning justices in US history, was Catholic. So is Justice Sotomayor. Remember that anytime someone trots out the pathetically stupid "you must dislike judges like Scalia and Barrett because of their Catholicism!"
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Biff The Understudy
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
France8153 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 13:38:29
October 14 2020 13:37 GMT
#54850
Well it seems that for some people "religious" means "utterly bigoted" and that any objection to utter bigotry is therefore a horrific attack on religious freedom. With all due respect to him, you have Danglar's whole posting history on the topic of religion in that nutshell, for example.
The fellow who is out to burn things up is the counterpart of the fool who thinks he can save the world. The world needs neither to be burned up nor to be saved. The world is, we are. Transients, if we buck it; here to stay if we accept it. ~H.Miller
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 13:54:45
October 14 2020 13:53 GMT
#54851
On October 14 2020 14:38 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 12:37 Nevuk wrote:
On October 14 2020 11:14 Starlightsun wrote:
Does anyone know the history of abortion becoming such a central issue to GOP voters? I seem to hazily recall that it's relatively recent and involved the party trying to build up its base.

Was picked as a unifying conservative issue by evangelical thought leaders after opposing desegregation became too unpalatable to business interests in the latter half of the 70s and early 80s. Before this it was viewed as something only catholics cared about (who were disliked by many conservatives for not being WASPs).

This is why Roe V Wade was a 7-2 decision : almost nobody cared about abortion at the time unless they were Catholics.

This isn't why the current group of anti-abortionists are against it, but it's why many of the "focus on the family" types started promoting it in the 70s. It's one of those things where the history doesn't really matter too much though. It's not like the pastors came out and said this was why they starting opposing abortion to their congregations, who are the actual voters and current politicians that we're talking about, and the current generation really does mostly do oppose it for the reasons they say they do. (Except for Pat Robertson, who is still kicking and active politically, most of the people we're talking about have been dead or irrelevant for decades).

Connecting right to life to opposition to desegregation and business interests? I might as well allege that killing babies still in the womb was a unifying political issue for democrats, and supported many of their secret desires to use it for eugenics (as it was with the founder of Planned Parenthood). What a very slanted view for you to take. We don't have to behave here like the rest of the political world outside accusing everybody of having darkness in their hearts.

The current operating law is planned parenthood vs casey, and that was no 7-2 easy “no one cares” decision. It changed core parts of roe vs wade.

Basically, up to the Obama years, there was substantial support for pro-life among Democrats, represented for instance by Democrats for Life, that encouraged heavy restrictions for abortion and protections for unborn children. You may or may not remember that pro-life carve ours in Obamacare had to be made to preserve Democratic votes in favor of it. It was well towards becoming a more unipolar issue in the 2000s. The remaining pro-life Democrats were largely swept out of power in the slaughter of the 2010 midterms.

It’s just very hard to be pro-life and in the Democratic Party these days, and candidates that are pro-life face stiff challenges, as they did in this year’s primaries. The whole cultural sorting has exacerbated the tensions on issues like abortion and gun rights. I think the increasing ideological conformity within parties is mostly to blame.


I'm not fully disagreeing with you here. Everything you've said is pretty much true, which is part of why I don't think the history matters too much. We're just talking about two different eras - I'm only addressing the origins, from 1974-1985.
There used to be a sizable number of evangelical democrats, too, which is more what you're referring to.

The question was about the history of why it became so important to the GOP, and it's very much a matter of historical records that, at least for evangelical leaders, it involved segregation. There are interviews where some of those involved have admitted it.

Now, there's two halves to this : being forced to integrate their private schools motivated the leaders to get politically active. Abortion was picked as an issue to help motivate evangelicals to vote as a bloc- there used to be a principle of not having religion and politics be so intertwined in many christian denominations.

Here's a deep dive about it:
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/05/religious-right-real-origins-107133#ixzz37ZUUJbXw

Here's an article written by one of Frank Schaeffer, the child of one of the founders of the pro life movement, who has since openly recanted his earlier actions (he helped setup some of the original pro life presentations):
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/frankschaeffer/2014/07/the-actual-pro-life-conspiracy-that-handed-america-to-the-tea-party-far-religious-right-an-insiders-perspective/
Yes, pro-lifers existed before that, but not in the same numbers.


Sidenote: an example of why "religious liberty" arguments fall on deaf ears:

Although Bob Jones Jr., the school’s founder, argued that racial segregation was mandated by the Bible, Falwell and Weyrich quickly sought to shift the grounds of the debate, framing their opposition in terms of religious freedom rather than in defense of racial segregation. For decades, evangelical leaders had boasted that because their educational institutions accepted no federal money (except for, of course, not having to pay taxes) the government could not tell them how to run their shops—whom to hire or not, whom to admit or reject. The Civil Rights Act, however, changed that calculus.

Bob Jones University did, in fact, try to placate the IRS—in its own way. Following initial inquiries into the school’s racial policies, Bob Jones admitted one African-American, a worker in its radio station, as a part-time student; he dropped out a month later. In 1975, again in an attempt to forestall IRS action, the school admitted blacks to the student body, but, out of fears of miscegenation, refused to admit unmarried African-Americans. The school also stipulated that any students who engaged in interracial dating, or who were even associated with organizations that advocated interracial dating, would be expelled.

The IRS was not placated. On January 19, 1976, after years of warnings—integrate or pay taxes—the agency rescinded the school’s tax exemption.

For many evangelical leaders, who had been following the issue since Green v. Connally, Bob Jones University was the final straw. As Elmer L. Rumminger, longtime administrator at Bob Jones University, told me in an interview, the IRS actions against his school “alerted the Christian school community about what could happen with government interference” in the affairs of evangelical institutions. “That was really the major issue that got us all involved.”
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
October 14 2020 13:54 GMT
#54852
On October 14 2020 22:37 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well it seems that for some people "religious" means "utterly bigoted" and that any objection to utter bigotry is therefore a horrific attack on religious freedom. With all due respect to him, you have Danglar's whole posting history on the topic of religion in that nutshell, for example.


That just reveals the people that weaponize religion for bigotry.

It's quite amazing how often "religious freedom" arguments are used to push for the freedom to discriminate and/or oppress people. I can think of astonishingly few recent "religious freedom" legal arguments in the U.S. that didn't center around this.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
October 14 2020 14:02 GMT
#54853
Also, remember the unmasking thing Doodsmack has been droning on about for months? Yeah, one of the two investigations has finished. No wrong doing found, no criminal charges. Even by the person appointed by Barr.

The federal prosecutor appointed by Attorney General William P. Barr to review whether Obama-era officials improperly requested the identities of individuals whose names were redacted in intelligence documents has completed his work without finding any substantive wrongdoing, according to people familiar with the matter.

The revelation that U.S. Attorney John Bash, who left the department last week, had concluded his review without criminal charges or any public report will rankle President Trump at a moment when he is particularly upset at the Justice Department. The department has so far declined to release the results of Bash’s work, though people familiar with his findings say they would likely disappoint conservatives who have tried to paint the “unmasking” of names — a common practice in government to help understand classified documents — as a political conspiracy.

The president in recent days has pressed federal law enforcement to move against his political adversaries and complained that a different prosecutor tapped by Barr to investigate the FBI’s 2016 investigation of his campaign will not be issuing any public findings before the election.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/barr-unmasking-review-no-charges/2020/10/13/0f63fd2e-0d67-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 14 2020 14:22 GMT
#54854
On October 14 2020 16:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 16:00 Silvanel wrote:
On October 14 2020 06:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 14 2020 05:50 Elroi wrote:
I don't get it. It seems to me that there are so many viable ways to attack him. All of this misquoting and intentional misunderstanding just makes mainstream media look like the bad guys and Trump as the paradoxical hero.

On October 14 2020 05:14 Arghmyliver wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:44 Doodsmack wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:04 NewSunshine wrote:
It sounds a little different coming from a leader who has both refused to condemn and encouraged the violent parts of his base. It also sounds different coming from someone who incessantly accuses his opposition of perpetrating election fraud, and who told the Proud Boys to "stand by". So there's some context.


The "stand by" comment was highly suspect but some of this is just liberal media misinformation. For example the Charlottesville comment. Look at what Trump actually said:

Reporter: “Do you think that what you call the alt-left is the same as neo-Nazis?”

Trump: “Those people — all of those people — excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.”

Reporter: “The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest —”

Trump: “Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves — and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”


He first defined the two "sides" as those opposed to taking down the statue and those favoring it. Thus he defined the white supremacists as a subset of one of the two sides. He then said there very fine people on both sides, which is to say that some among the pro-statue side were fine people. That is not the same as saying that some white supremacists are very fine people. If you believe it is the same, you've basically been duped by misinformation. Oh and by the way, he also said this:

I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.


Robert E Lee was a general in the army of the Confederate States of America who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon was also a general who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon never went to war to defend slavery. Lee did. That's extremely different.

Napoleon was kind of a dick, everyone agrees on that but his legacy encompass a lot, lot, lot more than his policies on slavery.

Statues of Lee were erected by white supremacist groups such as the Sister of the Confederacy; there is absolutely no ambiguity over what they are meant to celebrate,

I don't think ANY "fine person" would march to defend a statue of Lee.


I will add that Poland mentions Napoleon in its national anthem (in positive light), his legacy is vast and at least parts of it are very positive.

He is certainly an extremely complex character. But NOBODY looks at a statue of Napoleon and think "fuck yeah, white power". If anything people learn that one of his many flaws as a person were his racial views and one of his biggest crimes his restauration of slavery. But his role in history is soooo much more important than that.

I personally see him as a very negative figure with some contingent positive traits. But he built modern France and inspired generations after him and that's really something worth celebrating. He is a giant in our history.

If on the other hand you erect a statue of Lee and if you go demonstrate to preserve it, you absolutely are making a statement about white supremacy. Lee didn't write the Code Civil, didn't spread enlightenment across Europe and isn't responsible for building most of modern america's institution. His only role in history was to fight for rebels who betrayed the country to protect their rights to enslave people. No "fine person" celebrates that.


I suspect your view on people who favor the statues wouldn't be this black and white if Trump weren't president and/or if he hadn't said there were very fine people there. One could favor the statues merely as a recognition of history, for example.
Erasme
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Bahamas15899 Posts
October 14 2020 14:25 GMT
#54855
Except that those statues weren't build to celebrate history. It was a way to remind minorities that they were in the South.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7lxwFEB6FI “‘Drain the swamp’? Stupid saying, means nothing, but you guys loved it so I kept saying it.”
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 14 2020 14:25 GMT
#54856
On October 14 2020 23:02 Nevuk wrote:
Also, remember the unmasking thing Doodsmack has been droning on about for months? Yeah, one of the two investigations has finished. No wrong doing found, no criminal charges. Even by the person appointed by Barr.

Show nested quote +
The federal prosecutor appointed by Attorney General William P. Barr to review whether Obama-era officials improperly requested the identities of individuals whose names were redacted in intelligence documents has completed his work without finding any substantive wrongdoing, according to people familiar with the matter.

The revelation that U.S. Attorney John Bash, who left the department last week, had concluded his review without criminal charges or any public report will rankle President Trump at a moment when he is particularly upset at the Justice Department. The department has so far declined to release the results of Bash’s work, though people familiar with his findings say they would likely disappoint conservatives who have tried to paint the “unmasking” of names — a common practice in government to help understand classified documents — as a political conspiracy.

The president in recent days has pressed federal law enforcement to move against his political adversaries and complained that a different prosecutor tapped by Barr to investigate the FBI’s 2016 investigation of his campaign will not be issuing any public findings before the election.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/barr-unmasking-review-no-charges/2020/10/13/0f63fd2e-0d67-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html


I actually haven't said anything about unmasking but I'm not surprised there was no crime to charge there. But if you think that the Treasury Secretary and the UN Ambassador were unmasking Flynn's calls for good reasons, I've got a bridge for you.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
October 14 2020 14:28 GMT
#54857
On October 14 2020 23:25 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 23:02 Nevuk wrote:
Also, remember the unmasking thing Doodsmack has been droning on about for months? Yeah, one of the two investigations has finished. No wrong doing found, no criminal charges. Even by the person appointed by Barr.

The federal prosecutor appointed by Attorney General William P. Barr to review whether Obama-era officials improperly requested the identities of individuals whose names were redacted in intelligence documents has completed his work without finding any substantive wrongdoing, according to people familiar with the matter.

The revelation that U.S. Attorney John Bash, who left the department last week, had concluded his review without criminal charges or any public report will rankle President Trump at a moment when he is particularly upset at the Justice Department. The department has so far declined to release the results of Bash’s work, though people familiar with his findings say they would likely disappoint conservatives who have tried to paint the “unmasking” of names — a common practice in government to help understand classified documents — as a political conspiracy.

The president in recent days has pressed federal law enforcement to move against his political adversaries and complained that a different prosecutor tapped by Barr to investigate the FBI’s 2016 investigation of his campaign will not be issuing any public findings before the election.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/barr-unmasking-review-no-charges/2020/10/13/0f63fd2e-0d67-11eb-8074-0e943a91bf08_story.html


I actually haven't said anything about unmasking but I'm not surprised there was no crime to charge there. But if you think that the Treasury Secretary and the UN Ambassador were unmasking Flynn's calls for good reasons, I've got a bridge for you.


"good" reasons. Yeah, its pretty easy to argue something is bad when it just needs to disagree with yourself, without any requirement for any authority or expertise to agree with you. When all it takes is gut instinct, its easy to feel correct.
Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
Last Edited: 2020-10-14 14:36:14
October 14 2020 14:36 GMT
#54858
On October 14 2020 23:22 Doodsmack wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2020 16:44 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 14 2020 16:00 Silvanel wrote:
On October 14 2020 06:40 Biff The Understudy wrote:
On October 14 2020 05:50 Elroi wrote:
I don't get it. It seems to me that there are so many viable ways to attack him. All of this misquoting and intentional misunderstanding just makes mainstream media look like the bad guys and Trump as the paradoxical hero.

On October 14 2020 05:14 Arghmyliver wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:44 Doodsmack wrote:
On October 14 2020 03:04 NewSunshine wrote:
It sounds a little different coming from a leader who has both refused to condemn and encouraged the violent parts of his base. It also sounds different coming from someone who incessantly accuses his opposition of perpetrating election fraud, and who told the Proud Boys to "stand by". So there's some context.


The "stand by" comment was highly suspect but some of this is just liberal media misinformation. For example the Charlottesville comment. Look at what Trump actually said:

Reporter: “Do you think that what you call the alt-left is the same as neo-Nazis?”

Trump: “Those people — all of those people — excuse me, I’ve condemned neo-Nazis. I’ve condemned many different groups. But not all of those people were neo-Nazis, believe me. Not all of those people were white supremacists by any stretch. Those people were also there because they wanted to protest the taking down of a statue of Robert E. Lee.”

Reporter: “The neo-Nazis started this. They showed up in Charlottesville to protest —”

Trump: “Excuse me, excuse me. They didn’t put themselves — and you had some very bad people in that group, but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. You had people in that group. Excuse me, excuse me. I saw the same pictures as you did. You had people in that group that were there to protest the taking down of, to them, a very, very important statue and the renaming of a park from Robert E. Lee to another name.”


He first defined the two "sides" as those opposed to taking down the statue and those favoring it. Thus he defined the white supremacists as a subset of one of the two sides. He then said there very fine people on both sides, which is to say that some among the pro-statue side were fine people. That is not the same as saying that some white supremacists are very fine people. If you believe it is the same, you've basically been duped by misinformation. Oh and by the way, he also said this:

I’m not talking about the neo-Nazis and the white nationalists, because they should be condemned totally.


Robert E Lee was a general in the army of the Confederate States of America who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon was also a general who fought to maintain the right to enslave black people.

Napoleon never went to war to defend slavery. Lee did. That's extremely different.

Napoleon was kind of a dick, everyone agrees on that but his legacy encompass a lot, lot, lot more than his policies on slavery.

Statues of Lee were erected by white supremacist groups such as the Sister of the Confederacy; there is absolutely no ambiguity over what they are meant to celebrate,

I don't think ANY "fine person" would march to defend a statue of Lee.


I will add that Poland mentions Napoleon in its national anthem (in positive light), his legacy is vast and at least parts of it are very positive.

He is certainly an extremely complex character. But NOBODY looks at a statue of Napoleon and think "fuck yeah, white power". If anything people learn that one of his many flaws as a person were his racial views and one of his biggest crimes his restauration of slavery. But his role in history is soooo much more important than that.

I personally see him as a very negative figure with some contingent positive traits. But he built modern France and inspired generations after him and that's really something worth celebrating. He is a giant in our history.

If on the other hand you erect a statue of Lee and if you go demonstrate to preserve it, you absolutely are making a statement about white supremacy. Lee didn't write the Code Civil, didn't spread enlightenment across Europe and isn't responsible for building most of modern america's institution. His only role in history was to fight for rebels who betrayed the country to protect their rights to enslave people. No "fine person" celebrates that.


I suspect your view on people who favor the statues wouldn't be this black and white if Trump weren't president and/or if he hadn't said there were very fine people there. One could favor the statues merely as a recognition of history, for example.


No, no it wouldn't.

People have been talking about these statues since well before Trump took office. Trump just amplified the issue with his racist dog whistling.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18866 Posts
October 14 2020 14:37 GMT
#54859
On October 14 2020 23:25 Erasme wrote:
Except that those statues weren't build to celebrate history. It was a way to remind minorities that they were in the South.

Sadly, it is not uncommon for folks from outside the US to display a better understanding of the nation's history than many of its inhabitants.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
October 14 2020 14:39 GMT
#54860
On October 14 2020 23:25 Erasme wrote:
Except that those statues weren't build to celebrate history. It was a way to remind minorities that they were in the South.


Okay but no one really knows that fact these days (and it's probably not universally true, e.g. if you consider actual battlefield sites). People just recognize statues as something that has to do with history.
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