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I mean it shouldn't be so confusing. Biden and Democrat's message has been to fuck over people of religious faith. Nuns have to provide abortifacient drugs, even though they can't prove it's an accessibility problem and have many ways of providing these drugs apart from forcing religious organizations to be the means. The government had to confess at the Supreme Court that it could find no woman with a health access problem to demonstrate there was great need to overide First Amendment religious protections.
Say the same thing for Colorado and the Civil Rights Commission. And adoption agencies.
Honestly, even for the most hardcore lefty in this forum, it should be the easiest thing to imagine why evangelicals feel they have no choice in this election. They simply don't feel First Amendment protections have any business being surrendered, and the "women's health" argument is a stupid one made by people that ought to know better. There is only one candidate in the presidential field with any claim of letting business owners with sincere religious beliefs and religious organizations operate free of Government telling them they have no First Amendment protections for their operations. The Democrats always have the choice to not tweet out that they're gonna drag nuns back to court if elected.
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On September 14 2020 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
It is strange that he still has such ardent support from the evangelicals. To me ends justify the means is not a Christian value.
And it's strange that Trudeau has such ardent support from woke leftists in your country despite being photographed in blackface half a dozen seperate times.Then again we said similar of Dem Governor Ralph Northam.Seems to be a trend here.
I'll give you a tip.The radical Antica/BLM riots aren't helping the democrats.Biden saying he wants to defund the police and enable community policing (whatever the hell that is) isn't a winning strategy.Heck, maybe they're anti war.Biden voted for the Iraq war as senator.Trump just got nominated for the Nobel peace prize twice.
Really not hard to see why people would vote for Trump.Unless you're not willing to even entertain other points of view.
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On September 14 2020 09:02 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
It is strange that he still has such ardent support from the evangelicals. To me ends justify the means is not a Christian value. And it's strange that Trudeau has such ardent support from woke leftists in your country despite being photographed in blackface half a dozen seperate times.Then again we said similar of Dem Governor Ralph Northam.Seems to be a trend here. I'll give you a tip.The radical Antica/BLM riots aren't helping the democrats.Biden saying he wants to defund the police and enable community policing (whatever the hell that is) isn't a winning strategy.Heck, maybe they're anti war.Biden voted for the Iraq war as senator. Trump just got nominated for the Nobel peace prize twice.Really not hard to see why people would vote for Trump.Unless you're not willing to even entertain other points of view.
Nice participation trophies he's got there.
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On September 14 2020 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
It is strange that he still has such ardent support from the evangelicals. To me ends justify the means is not a Christian value.
its not strange at all, for them, hes their ardent strongman against homosexuality, abortions, and "traditional values" (however that one may define them). he doesnt need to reflect their values if he supports their values.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/us/evangelicals-trump-christianity.html
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Northern Ireland27410 Posts
On September 14 2020 08:46 Danglars wrote:
I mean it shouldn't be so confusing. Biden and Democrat's message has been to fuck over people of religious faith. Nuns have to provide abortifacient drugs, even though they can't prove it's an accessibility problem and have many ways of providing these drugs apart from forcing religious organizations to be the means. The government had to confess at the Supreme Court that it could find no woman with a health access problem to demonstrate there was great need to overide First Amendment religious protections.
Say the same thing for Colorado and the Civil Rights Commission. And adoption agencies.
Honestly, even for the most hardcore lefty in this forum, it should be the easiest thing to imagine why evangelicals feel they have no choice in this election. They simply don't feel First Amendment protections have any business being surrendered, and the "women's health" argument is a stupid one made by people that ought to know better. There is only one candidate in the presidential field with any claim of letting business owners with sincere religious beliefs and religious organizations operate free of Government telling them they have no First Amendment protections for their operations. The Democrats always have the choice to not tweet out that they're gonna drag nuns back to court if elected.
Well they can feel that way, I don’t overly care. Do whatever.
If one wants tax exempt status on religions grounds, but wants to exert political influence, but wants to be guaranteed the right to be able to whatever, like have at it man.
If one is willing to give a pass to Donald Trump, close to the least Christian man in human history as long as he’s ‘your guy’ then go for it.
Really Danglars you want to have your cake and eat it, claim for have some high ground on issues and just ignore the negatives. And then claim the problem is people being intolerant for not accepting your choices
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The First Amendment is critical to protect rights to religion, but for some reason never came up during months and months of protests where people exercising their rights to free speech are being assaulted by police. Right-O.
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And also he seems to be interested primarily in business owners exercising their First Amendment rights to harass those of a vulnerable group under their employ, rather than for the purpose of peaceful protest.
Danglars, please just come out and say openly that you don't give a shit about liberal democratic values, that you would sacrifice them in order for the previous existing social order to flourish, and that you don't value the health or safety of those of different groups than yourself.
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On September 14 2020 10:26 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 08:46 Danglars wrote:
I mean it shouldn't be so confusing. Biden and Democrat's message has been to fuck over people of religious faith. Nuns have to provide abortifacient drugs, even though they can't prove it's an accessibility problem and have many ways of providing these drugs apart from forcing religious organizations to be the means. The government had to confess at the Supreme Court that it could find no woman with a health access problem to demonstrate there was great need to overide First Amendment religious protections.
Say the same thing for Colorado and the Civil Rights Commission. And adoption agencies.
Honestly, even for the most hardcore lefty in this forum, it should be the easiest thing to imagine why evangelicals feel they have no choice in this election. They simply don't feel First Amendment protections have any business being surrendered, and the "women's health" argument is a stupid one made by people that ought to know better. There is only one candidate in the presidential field with any claim of letting business owners with sincere religious beliefs and religious organizations operate free of Government telling them they have no First Amendment protections for their operations. The Democrats always have the choice to not tweet out that they're gonna drag nuns back to court if elected. Well they can feel that way, I don’t overly care. Do whatever. If one wants tax exempt status on religions grounds, but wants to exert political influence, but wants to be guaranteed the right to be able to whatever, like have at it man. If one is willing to give a pass to Donald Trump, close to the least Christian man in human history as long as he’s ‘your guy’ then go for it. Really Danglars you want to have your cake and eat it, claim for have some high ground on issues and just ignore the negatives. And then claim the problem is people being intolerant for not accepting your choices
I hold my government to higher standards than you. Period. Religious rights in this country should be respected. I think you're really digging yourself into a hole by claiming this is "the right to be able to whatever." I think you have to try much harder to find an argument here. I can accept some negatives (Some states have to find ways of subsidies that don't interfere with religious freedoms, oh boo hoo), because well ... religious liberty rights are foundational. Good luck with your discrimination, because honestly, you know why people vote this way and don't care.
Secondly, if the government was harassing you for something, and one guy fought to get them off your back, and the other guy promised more lawsuits, I think even you would find reason to ignore personal shortcomings. You're honestly better than this, in my view. Religious institutions already have restrictions on their political influence if they seek to maintain tax exemption, by the way.
Drag you back to court, or leave you alone? Oh man, Wombat, I really gotta think about his moral fiber on this one. I really love spending years in court at the hands of my own government if it means I avoid voting for personally immoral candidates. Do you really think attacking Trump on his moral character is making a point, or do you just feel you need to bring it up every time?
On September 14 2020 11:06 WarSame wrote:
And also he seems to be interested primarily in business owners exercising their First Amendment rights to harass those of a vulnerable group under their employ, rather than for the purpose of peaceful protest.
Danglars, please just come out and say openly that you don't give a shit about liberal democratic values, that you would sacrifice them in order for the previous existing social order to flourish, and that you don't value the health or safety of those of different groups than yourself.
Some people have blinders on in this discussion. When religious freedoms come up, they are incapable of seeing it as anything other than international harassment or lack of care about health and safety. Maybe in the future, you can come around to seeing these are poor excuses for state actions that can be done while actually valuing the religious freedom rights in the First Amendment.
It would be a pretty stupid amendment if the first yahoo just whines about how inconvenient it is to respect religious individuals, and imagined harm and harassment was their aim. So how about valuing the religious conscience rights of groups that aren't like you, and have convictions you don't share. Go be honest in politics, and have your state agency work around sincerely held beliefs to dole out subsidies if you actually value them and don't really want to ... ... ... make this about putting the religious faithful as second class citizens within their own country, okay?
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On September 14 2020 09:02 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
It is strange that he still has such ardent support from the evangelicals. To me ends justify the means is not a Christian value. And it's strange that Trudeau has such ardent support from woke leftists in your country despite being photographed in blackface half a dozen seperate times.Then again we said similar of Dem Governor Ralph Northam.Seems to be a trend here. I'll give you a tip.The radical Antica/BLM riots aren't helping the democrats.Biden saying he wants to defund the police and enable community policing (whatever the hell that is) isn't a winning strategy.Heck, maybe they're anti war.Biden voted for the Iraq war as senator.Trump just got nominated for the Nobel peace prize twice. Really not hard to see why people would vote for Trump.Unless you're not willing to even entertain other points of view.
You really have no idea what you are talking about, do you?
There are two major political parties to the left of the Liberals in Canada. That's where most of the "woke leftists" would go.
I'm excited for next time when you tell us that folks from "woke leftists" from the UK vote Labour.
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Canada11607 Posts
Eh. Not necessarily. They certainly have three options to pick, but as Trudeau the Teflon man maintains his popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if he still retains much of his support from leftists. I've always found him long on shallow platitudes, but he was popular for saying them not so long ago.
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Religious freedom is your right to practice whatever religion you choose and not be persecuted for it, so long as you are not also infringing on the rights of others in doing so. You don't get carte blanche to shit on other peoples' rights and be able to call it "religious freedom". That isn't a thing. Christians aren't being persecuted when people tell them to stop denying other people their rights and freedoms. Not how it works.
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On September 14 2020 12:28 Falling wrote:
Eh. Not necessarily. They certainly have three options to pick, but as Trudeau the Teflon man maintains his popularity, I wouldn't be surprised if he still retains much of his support from leftists. I've always found him long on shallow platitudes, but he was popular for saying them not so long ago.
He's popular among centrists and centre-left people. Most progressives tend not to have much of a positive opinion of him other than "at least he's not Harper/Scheer/O'Toole". Much like progressives in the US talking about holding their noses and voting Democrat despite not liking the platform or candidates in some cases, there is a chunk of progressives in Canada who begrudgingly vote Liberal because none of the progressive options have a chance in their riding and they'd rather do damage limitation than vote split their way into allowing a Conservative win the seat. The ABC movement was popular for this exact reason.
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On September 14 2020 13:03 NewSunshine wrote:
Religious freedom is your right to practice whatever religion you choose and not be persecuted for it, so long as you are not also infringing on the rights of others in doing so. You don't get carte blanche to shit on other peoples' rights and be able to call it "religious freedom". That isn't a thing. Christians aren't being persecuted when people tell them to stop denying other people their rights and freedoms. Not how it works.
This has been Danglars's MO for a long time.
He has some weird obsession with railing on the left's supposed attack on religious freedom and 1st amendment rights while completely ignoring the fact that the party that he supports regularly tramples on people's constitutional rights on a frequent basis, including their other first amendment rights.
It's the same exact playbook that conservatives all across America use. Danglars is just more eloquent than your average conservative, but his hypocrisy runs just as deep.
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On September 14 2020 13:37 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 13:03 NewSunshine wrote:
Religious freedom is your right to practice whatever religion you choose and not be persecuted for it, so long as you are not also infringing on the rights of others in doing so. You don't get carte blanche to shit on other peoples' rights and be able to call it "religious freedom". That isn't a thing. Christians aren't being persecuted when people tell them to stop denying other people their rights and freedoms. Not how it works. This has been Danglars's MO for a long time. He has some weird obsession with railing on the left's supposed attack on religious freedom and 1st amendment rights while completely ignoring the fact that the party that he supports regularly tramples on people's constitutional rights on a frequent basis, including their other first amendment rights. It's the same exact playbook that conservatives all across America use. Danglars is just more eloquent than your average conservative, but his hypocrisy runs just as deep.
Inasmuch as this thread ignores real issues that matter to the voting public, I’m doing the thread a service. The arguments in favor of dragging nuns into court on the pretense that Obamacare invented a right to no-cost abortifacients have been historically bad. The adherents rely on equally bad bases to argue abstractions like health care (nobody found injury to it) or balancing rights (right to force employers to offer specific drugs free of charge is quite an argument, but I guess they could find nothing better than it).
In short, Democrats and leftists on this forum have long ignored religious freedoms in this country, and it falls in nicely with their ongoing attacks on evangelicals for voting the way they do. I don’t yet have a theory on how much this ignorance is a practiced trait, because it avoids adopting a more nuanced view of their opponents and considerations in their vote, or how much is a priori disgust at religious values they dislike. It will be a stumbling block to dialogue if posters here can’t accept obviously good reasons to vote for Trump, since they have no entry point to then argue that the negatives outweigh the positives.
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Part of the problem is the conflating of what is good for people with a conservative worldview and what is 'good' for people with alternative worldviews. For instance, Trump stuffing the courts is a "good reason" to vote for him if you have a conservative worldview but not a "good" phenomenon if you don't.
Another aspect is not understanding why people hold a conservative worldview in the first place/where it comes from/what it consists of.
Lastly there's an element that regardless of political affiliation people say they care about things they don't actually care about. As well as believing/caring about things they don't emphasize (or sometimes even recognize themselves).
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Is there anything else besides abortion that is considered to be infringing on Christian religious freedom?
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On September 14 2020 11:41 Danglars wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 10:26 WombaT wrote:On September 14 2020 08:46 Danglars wrote:
I mean it shouldn't be so confusing. Biden and Democrat's message has been to fuck over people of religious faith. Nuns have to provide abortifacient drugs, even though they can't prove it's an accessibility problem and have many ways of providing these drugs apart from forcing religious organizations to be the means. The government had to confess at the Supreme Court that it could find no woman with a health access problem to demonstrate there was great need to overide First Amendment religious protections.
Say the same thing for Colorado and the Civil Rights Commission. And adoption agencies.
Honestly, even for the most hardcore lefty in this forum, it should be the easiest thing to imagine why evangelicals feel they have no choice in this election. They simply don't feel First Amendment protections have any business being surrendered, and the "women's health" argument is a stupid one made by people that ought to know better. There is only one candidate in the presidential field with any claim of letting business owners with sincere religious beliefs and religious organizations operate free of Government telling them they have no First Amendment protections for their operations. The Democrats always have the choice to not tweet out that they're gonna drag nuns back to court if elected. Well they can feel that way, I don’t overly care. Do whatever. If one wants tax exempt status on religions grounds, but wants to exert political influence, but wants to be guaranteed the right to be able to whatever, like have at it man. If one is willing to give a pass to Donald Trump, close to the least Christian man in human history as long as he’s ‘your guy’ then go for it. Really Danglars you want to have your cake and eat it, claim for have some high ground on issues and just ignore the negatives. And then claim the problem is people being intolerant for not accepting your choices I hold my government to higher standards than you. Period. Religious rights in this country should be respected. I think you're really digging yourself into a hole by claiming this is "the right to be able to whatever." I think you have to try much harder to find an argument here. I can accept some negatives (Some states have to find ways of subsidies that don't interfere with religious freedoms, oh boo hoo), because well ... religious liberty rights are foundational. Good luck with your discrimination, because honestly, you know why people vote this way and don't care. Secondly, if the government was harassing you for something, and one guy fought to get them off your back, and the other guy promised more lawsuits, I think even you would find reason to ignore personal shortcomings. You're honestly better than this, in my view. Religious institutions already have restrictions on their political influence if they seek to maintain tax exemption, by the way. Drag you back to court, or leave you alone? Oh man, Wombat, I really gotta think about his moral fiber on this one. I really love spending years in court at the hands of my own government if it means I avoid voting for personally immoral candidates. Do you really think attacking Trump on his moral character is making a point, or do you just feel you need to bring it up every time? Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 11:06 WarSame wrote:
And also he seems to be interested primarily in business owners exercising their First Amendment rights to harass those of a vulnerable group under their employ, rather than for the purpose of peaceful protest.
Danglars, please just come out and say openly that you don't give a shit about liberal democratic values, that you would sacrifice them in order for the previous existing social order to flourish, and that you don't value the health or safety of those of different groups than yourself. Some people have blinders on in this discussion. When religious freedoms come up, they are incapable of seeing it as anything other than international harassment or lack of care about health and safety. Maybe in the future, you can come around to seeing these are poor excuses for state actions that can be done while actually valuing the religious freedom rights in the First Amendment. It would be a pretty stupid amendment if the first yahoo just whines about how inconvenient it is to respect religious individuals, and imagined harm and harassment was their aim. So how about valuing the religious conscience rights of groups that aren't like you, and have convictions you don't share. Go be honest in politics, and have your state agency work around sincerely held beliefs to dole out subsidies if you actually value them and don't really want to ... ... ... make this about putting the religious faithful as second class citizens within their own country, okay?
Okay, so how do you feel about Muslims' right to wear a niqab or a burka in public?
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On September 14 2020 09:02 iPlaY.NettleS wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2020 06:31 JimmiC wrote:
It is strange that he still has such ardent support from the evangelicals. To me ends justify the means is not a Christian value. And it's strange that Trudeau has such ardent support from woke leftists in your country despite being photographed in blackface half a dozen seperate times.Then again we said similar of Dem Governor Ralph Northam.Seems to be a trend here. I'll give you a tip.The radical Antica/BLM riots aren't helping the democrats.Biden saying he wants to defund the police and enable community policing (whatever the hell that is) isn't a winning strategy.Heck, maybe they're anti war.Biden voted for the Iraq war as senator.Trump just got nominated for the Nobel peace prize twice. Really not hard to see why people would vote for Trump.Unless you're not willing to even entertain other points of view.
Supporting Trump while virtue signalling offence for Trudeau's blackface 20 year ago is pretty jokes. Also Biden does not support defunding the police. Be careful which media sources you're consuming, because that one is straight from Trump's ass.
I do find it pretty hard to see why someone would vote for a guy that shit on the troops recently and lied about Covid to everyone before accummulating 190k deaths. Even if you were terrified of the "woke mob", they're running wild on your dipshit cult leader's watch right now, not Joe Biden or Hillary Clinton or any other dem boogeyman.
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EPT
