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On July 19 2020 19:48 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:42 Atreides wrote:On July 19 2020 19:39 farvacola wrote:On July 19 2020 19:17 Atreides wrote:On July 19 2020 17:19 Simberto wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. And once again, there are a bunch of systemic reasons for that. Let me give you my experience, voting in Germany: When i moved into my apartment, i registered that move with the government (as you have to do). Since then, whenever there is an election, i get a letter saying "election on sunday bla, go to house bleh, station blub between 10 and 18 o'clock". On that sunday, i take EITHER this letter OR my ID (which i also just have completely unrelated to voting), because every citizen is required to have an ID), go to that place, and can usually vote within 5 minutes. I have been to every election since i was 16 years old and first able to vote in local elections. The absolute maximum waiting time i have had so far was 15 minutes. If, for any reason whatsever, i decide i don't want to go voting on that day, i can just send the same letter i got back to request mail-in voting, and do mail-in voting instead. This system, at least to me, seems designed to put the minimum possible amount of hurdles in my way while still making sure the election is safe and legitimate. Meanwhile, from the US i constantly see reports of hours-long-queues (on a weekday where people have to work), closing polling stations in poorer areas, voter ID laws without mandatory IDs, strange voter registration things and stuff like this. And to me, it is very obvious that every single one of these things reduces the amount of people voting by some small amount. An individual can deal with any of them, but statistically a bunch of people will not vote due to the additional hurdles put in place. And i simply cannot believe that the professional politicians, whose main job is to get reelected, didn't look very carefully at statistics to see if it helps them before making it harder to vote. In a two-party system, this is pretty easy. You just have to make sure that the people voting for the other party are more effected by the voting difficulty measures. And i am sure that the people who make this decisions have lots and lots of statistics telling them which groups of people tend to vote for the other party. My best solution to this problem would be to require supermajorities (2/3) or so for any change to how voting works. That way, it can only be done bipartisanly. I have voted 20+ times in my life and every one of them required less hurdles then this. I registered to vote once when I was 18. I have never brought any document to a polling station besides the driver's license that I have had since 16 and use as generic ID for literally everything (buying alcohol etc.) I have walked up to a random voting station not my precint twice and they let me vote on statewide or national issues. (not local ones for obvious reasons) The ballot is just a 'question ballot' that they have to later verify if counting it is required. You just fabricate some ridiculous image based on preconceived opinions. Which is pretty much whatever, but how do you expect people to take it seriously when you do address the small but legitimate concerns people have? I don't think you understand that having to register ever time you changed address with the government in that fashion would be seen as INFINITELY more onerous then anything the US has in place. lol Every time this discussion happens. People say 'my system is so much better'. People respond with "But the US system is objectively easier..." and it is just happily ignored. There is a massive problem with voting in the US, its not the system. On July 19 2020 17:29 Acrofales wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. I think most of the issues mentioned are complicating factors, but the core issue is too few polling stations and no time off work. Registration may or may not make it harder in some states, and mail-id voting makes it easier, but at the end of the day people who would vote if it were just a quick thing to do are not going to take a vacation day to stand in line for hours. And while there are indeed plenty of polling stations where you walk in, vote, and walk out in 5 minutes, there are also too many where you first stand in line for upward of an hour. This article says 1.5% of voters stood in those lines: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/report/the-2018-voting-experience/It also has some explanations for why, when and where this mostly happens, and why this is bad. The most obvious ones are that it costs these voters money to be standing in that line and causes people to not vote because they see that line. But in terms of disenfranchisement it also has a toll: it makes them less likely to vote in future elections, and with media showing these lines can cause other people (whose polling station may be empty) to expect long lines to vote, and thus not go. Now I'm not claiming long lines are the only reason. Clearly if only ~50% of your eligible voters turn out to vote, there are greater problems. Disillusionment with the two-party system or the general state of politics probably causes many people to stay at home too. I don't know if you can call that self-inflicted. But the fact of the matter is that voter turnout in the US is consistently lower than in comparable nations, and that is a bad thing for democracy. this post is MUCH better, and addresses actual issues. like a shortage of polling place in high population areas (something I have never encountered) is clearly a problem. Fix that for that 1.5% of voters. However most comments on this subject are utterly ridiculous.That doesn't require changing the system, which again is objectively easier and simpler then almost any country it gets compared to. (I have never voted mail-in, I have voted early or out of precint (absentee/question ballot) many times with no issues whatsoever.) You're glossing over a ton of things while getting really huffy, why? There are literally 50 different voter registration schemes, so automatically the notion that voting in the US is "objectively easier and simpler" needs dramatic qualification At the same time, the wide disparities across different states require a heavy discounting of "well in my state its easy and I've never had a problem, so how can anyone of the 300+ million people in the US claim voting is tough here?" Aren't you out of Alaska, for crying out loud? Its about equally valid from an argumentation stand point and significantly less ludicrous then the everpresent claims of "i saw a long line on tv, the system is clearly fucked up and disenfanchising voters so we got a moron for a president. The system in <insert european country> is so much better!" and I have fairly clearly been significantly less huffy then the 4 people who have responded to me, who outside of one offered the convincing argument of 'the US system is bad because its the US and we know it's bad". Wonderful. You tried to turn this into some awful game of using your US vantage point to belittle the opinions of non-Americans who have identified problems with our voting system and want to comment on it. That's on you, as well as the logical leaps used to diminish the significance of what happens to statistically small, yet nevertheless enormous numbers of people who try to vote. And no Wegandi, this has nothing to do with some grand conspiracy, the exact opposite is precisely the problem. To the non-Americans commenting, I hear you and you should know that plenty of people here agree that we make voting too hard for too many people. As you can see, we are in no shortage of people who will come up any number of dumb reasons why that isn't a problem.
I quite literally offered my experience as a response to someone else offering merely their experience as the sum total of their argument and nothing else. So no in fact what you are saying is not true and I strongly object to your statement. Which is the only one in the entire page doing any personal belittling. Nor have you contributed a single thing to the discussion, besides establishing you disagree with my opinion.
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On July 19 2020 19:46 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:40 Atreides wrote:
So do 95%+ (?) of people in the country so it seems like maybe addressing specific concerns of the <5% the current system doesn't work for within the system might be a solution?
It is utterly ridiculous. Again I am very confident that the voting systems "works' for a higher percentage of people in this country then say the ACA, or the aforementioned tax code, or any number of other things.
The fact that we have atrocious turnout and manage to elect someone like our current president is a function of a lot of things but laying blame at the 'voting system' is both laughable and ineffective. your right, the problem is not the system itself but the people exploiting that system to benefit themselves/their party and suppressing the opposition. But we're unlikely to change these people and get them to behave. Instead its more realistic to try to change the system to make it less easy to exploit, that is why so much of the discussion focuses on the system. Because while it is also unlikely to bring about change, its more realistic then expecting people to change.
There is nothing wrong with the US voting system (besides of course making it almost impossible for parties outside of the duopoly to debate or get on the ballot), and you making it to be because of the GOP is hilarious. If people actually, really cared about black disenfranchisement they would forcefully attend to the most obvious - reinstating felon voting rights. Of course, the mythical systemic disenfranchisement is ever only trotted out with no facts. It's funny to me that people think its easier to change the voting system or nationalizing it than letting felons vote. Honestly.
By the way I just want to address this idea that you can only vote on the weekday. Many locations in the US have early voting often done on the weekend (this is common in FL). Like, this idea that they try and make it as difficult as possible for people to vote in the US is hilarious wrong on so many accounts, but of course like Atreides brought up people see a short 15 second video on CNN or whatever and extrapolate that to the entire country.
https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/early-voting-in-state-elections.aspx
39! States offer early voting. Come on. Voting in the US is easy and it takes minimal dedication and effort.
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On July 19 2020 19:57 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:48 farvacola wrote:On July 19 2020 19:42 Atreides wrote:On July 19 2020 19:39 farvacola wrote:On July 19 2020 19:17 Atreides wrote:On July 19 2020 17:19 Simberto wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. And once again, there are a bunch of systemic reasons for that. Let me give you my experience, voting in Germany: When i moved into my apartment, i registered that move with the government (as you have to do). Since then, whenever there is an election, i get a letter saying "election on sunday bla, go to house bleh, station blub between 10 and 18 o'clock". On that sunday, i take EITHER this letter OR my ID (which i also just have completely unrelated to voting), because every citizen is required to have an ID), go to that place, and can usually vote within 5 minutes. I have been to every election since i was 16 years old and first able to vote in local elections. The absolute maximum waiting time i have had so far was 15 minutes. If, for any reason whatsever, i decide i don't want to go voting on that day, i can just send the same letter i got back to request mail-in voting, and do mail-in voting instead. This system, at least to me, seems designed to put the minimum possible amount of hurdles in my way while still making sure the election is safe and legitimate. Meanwhile, from the US i constantly see reports of hours-long-queues (on a weekday where people have to work), closing polling stations in poorer areas, voter ID laws without mandatory IDs, strange voter registration things and stuff like this. And to me, it is very obvious that every single one of these things reduces the amount of people voting by some small amount. An individual can deal with any of them, but statistically a bunch of people will not vote due to the additional hurdles put in place. And i simply cannot believe that the professional politicians, whose main job is to get reelected, didn't look very carefully at statistics to see if it helps them before making it harder to vote. In a two-party system, this is pretty easy. You just have to make sure that the people voting for the other party are more effected by the voting difficulty measures. And i am sure that the people who make this decisions have lots and lots of statistics telling them which groups of people tend to vote for the other party. My best solution to this problem would be to require supermajorities (2/3) or so for any change to how voting works. That way, it can only be done bipartisanly. I have voted 20+ times in my life and every one of them required less hurdles then this. I registered to vote once when I was 18. I have never brought any document to a polling station besides the driver's license that I have had since 16 and use as generic ID for literally everything (buying alcohol etc.) I have walked up to a random voting station not my precint twice and they let me vote on statewide or national issues. (not local ones for obvious reasons) The ballot is just a 'question ballot' that they have to later verify if counting it is required. You just fabricate some ridiculous image based on preconceived opinions. Which is pretty much whatever, but how do you expect people to take it seriously when you do address the small but legitimate concerns people have? I don't think you understand that having to register ever time you changed address with the government in that fashion would be seen as INFINITELY more onerous then anything the US has in place. lol Every time this discussion happens. People say 'my system is so much better'. People respond with "But the US system is objectively easier..." and it is just happily ignored. There is a massive problem with voting in the US, its not the system. On July 19 2020 17:29 Acrofales wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. I think most of the issues mentioned are complicating factors, but the core issue is too few polling stations and no time off work. Registration may or may not make it harder in some states, and mail-id voting makes it easier, but at the end of the day people who would vote if it were just a quick thing to do are not going to take a vacation day to stand in line for hours. And while there are indeed plenty of polling stations where you walk in, vote, and walk out in 5 minutes, there are also too many where you first stand in line for upward of an hour. This article says 1.5% of voters stood in those lines: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/report/the-2018-voting-experience/It also has some explanations for why, when and where this mostly happens, and why this is bad. The most obvious ones are that it costs these voters money to be standing in that line and causes people to not vote because they see that line. But in terms of disenfranchisement it also has a toll: it makes them less likely to vote in future elections, and with media showing these lines can cause other people (whose polling station may be empty) to expect long lines to vote, and thus not go. Now I'm not claiming long lines are the only reason. Clearly if only ~50% of your eligible voters turn out to vote, there are greater problems. Disillusionment with the two-party system or the general state of politics probably causes many people to stay at home too. I don't know if you can call that self-inflicted. But the fact of the matter is that voter turnout in the US is consistently lower than in comparable nations, and that is a bad thing for democracy. this post is MUCH better, and addresses actual issues. like a shortage of polling place in high population areas (something I have never encountered) is clearly a problem. Fix that for that 1.5% of voters. However most comments on this subject are utterly ridiculous.That doesn't require changing the system, which again is objectively easier and simpler then almost any country it gets compared to. (I have never voted mail-in, I have voted early or out of precint (absentee/question ballot) many times with no issues whatsoever.) You're glossing over a ton of things while getting really huffy, why? There are literally 50 different voter registration schemes, so automatically the notion that voting in the US is "objectively easier and simpler" needs dramatic qualification At the same time, the wide disparities across different states require a heavy discounting of "well in my state its easy and I've never had a problem, so how can anyone of the 300+ million people in the US claim voting is tough here?" Aren't you out of Alaska, for crying out loud? Its about equally valid from an argumentation stand point and significantly less ludicrous then the everpresent claims of "i saw a long line on tv, the system is clearly fucked up and disenfanchising voters so we got a moron for a president. The system in <insert european country> is so much better!" and I have fairly clearly been significantly less huffy then the 4 people who have responded to me, who outside of one offered the convincing argument of 'the US system is bad because its the US and we know it's bad". Wonderful. You tried to turn this into some awful game of using your US vantage point to belittle the opinions of non-Americans who have identified problems with our voting system and want to comment on it. That's on you, as well as the logical leaps used to diminish the significance of what happens to statistically small, yet nevertheless enormous numbers of people who try to vote. And no Wegandi, this has nothing to do with some grand conspiracy, the exact opposite is precisely the problem. To the non-Americans commenting, I hear you and you should know that plenty of people here agree that we make voting too hard for too many people. As you can see, we are in no shortage of people who will come up any number of dumb reasons why that isn't a problem. I quite literally offered my experience as a response to someone else offering merely their experience as the sum total of their argument and nothing else. So no in fact what you are saying is not true and I strongly object to your statement. Which is the only one in the entire page doing any personal belittling. Nor have you contributed a single thing to the discussion, besides establishing you disagree with my opinion.
You should probably take a break, I think you're unable to accurately reflect on what has been said here. At an absolutely minimum, it's incredibly misleading to compare voting in the US with other nations without accounting for just how different voting works across the 50 states, and you begged intervention with hot nonsense like stating that voting in the US is "objectively easier and simpler then almost any country it gets compared to." That was and is a dumb thing to say and you should consider why before using your personal experiences voting in Iowa and Alaska as a basis for making proclamations of objective description.
To be fair, Wegandi, leftists are picking up more and more on criminal disenfranchisement as a primary issue, so it's not going ignored. And there are plenty of facts regarding the grind of poverty and maintaining systemic eligibility for benefits, both of which are directly tied to how difficult it can be to vote as a black working person somewhere like Georgia or Florida. The only way you can assert otherwise is to minimize the importance of voting difficulties in states like those, which is fine I guess, but totally incomplete.
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On July 19 2020 19:42 Atreides wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:39 farvacola wrote:On July 19 2020 19:17 Atreides wrote:On July 19 2020 17:19 Simberto wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. And once again, there are a bunch of systemic reasons for that. Let me give you my experience, voting in Germany: When i moved into my apartment, i registered that move with the government (as you have to do). Since then, whenever there is an election, i get a letter saying "election on sunday bla, go to house bleh, station blub between 10 and 18 o'clock". On that sunday, i take EITHER this letter OR my ID (which i also just have completely unrelated to voting), because every citizen is required to have an ID), go to that place, and can usually vote within 5 minutes. I have been to every election since i was 16 years old and first able to vote in local elections. The absolute maximum waiting time i have had so far was 15 minutes. If, for any reason whatsever, i decide i don't want to go voting on that day, i can just send the same letter i got back to request mail-in voting, and do mail-in voting instead. This system, at least to me, seems designed to put the minimum possible amount of hurdles in my way while still making sure the election is safe and legitimate. Meanwhile, from the US i constantly see reports of hours-long-queues (on a weekday where people have to work), closing polling stations in poorer areas, voter ID laws without mandatory IDs, strange voter registration things and stuff like this. And to me, it is very obvious that every single one of these things reduces the amount of people voting by some small amount. An individual can deal with any of them, but statistically a bunch of people will not vote due to the additional hurdles put in place. And i simply cannot believe that the professional politicians, whose main job is to get reelected, didn't look very carefully at statistics to see if it helps them before making it harder to vote. In a two-party system, this is pretty easy. You just have to make sure that the people voting for the other party are more effected by the voting difficulty measures. And i am sure that the people who make this decisions have lots and lots of statistics telling them which groups of people tend to vote for the other party. My best solution to this problem would be to require supermajorities (2/3) or so for any change to how voting works. That way, it can only be done bipartisanly. I have voted 20+ times in my life and every one of them required less hurdles then this. I registered to vote once when I was 18. I have never brought any document to a polling station besides the driver's license that I have had since 16 and use as generic ID for literally everything (buying alcohol etc.) I have walked up to a random voting station not my precint twice and they let me vote on statewide or national issues. (not local ones for obvious reasons) The ballot is just a 'question ballot' that they have to later verify if counting it is required. You just fabricate some ridiculous image based on preconceived opinions. Which is pretty much whatever, but how do you expect people to take it seriously when you do address the small but legitimate concerns people have? I don't think you understand that having to register ever time you changed address with the government in that fashion would be seen as INFINITELY more onerous then anything the US has in place. lol Every time this discussion happens. People say 'my system is so much better'. People respond with "But the US system is objectively easier..." and it is just happily ignored. There is a massive problem with voting in the US, its not the system. On July 19 2020 17:29 Acrofales wrote:On July 19 2020 16:35 Atreides wrote:
Its very bizarre to me the voter issue because every more 'advanced' voting system I have ever looked at is more complicated/harder to vote "on paper" then the us system in *most* places. There are specific instances to be sure but its not like its some systemic problem in actuality. The disenfranchisement of voters in the US is a huge problem but it's mostly self inflicted. People just don't vote. I think most of the issues mentioned are complicating factors, but the core issue is too few polling stations and no time off work. Registration may or may not make it harder in some states, and mail-id voting makes it easier, but at the end of the day people who would vote if it were just a quick thing to do are not going to take a vacation day to stand in line for hours. And while there are indeed plenty of polling stations where you walk in, vote, and walk out in 5 minutes, there are also too many where you first stand in line for upward of an hour. This article says 1.5% of voters stood in those lines: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/report/the-2018-voting-experience/It also has some explanations for why, when and where this mostly happens, and why this is bad. The most obvious ones are that it costs these voters money to be standing in that line and causes people to not vote because they see that line. But in terms of disenfranchisement it also has a toll: it makes them less likely to vote in future elections, and with media showing these lines can cause other people (whose polling station may be empty) to expect long lines to vote, and thus not go. Now I'm not claiming long lines are the only reason. Clearly if only ~50% of your eligible voters turn out to vote, there are greater problems. Disillusionment with the two-party system or the general state of politics probably causes many people to stay at home too. I don't know if you can call that self-inflicted. But the fact of the matter is that voter turnout in the US is consistently lower than in comparable nations, and that is a bad thing for democracy. this post is MUCH better, and addresses actual issues. like a shortage of polling place in high population areas (something I have never encountered) is clearly a problem. Fix that for that 1.5% of voters. However most comments on this subject are utterly ridiculous.That doesn't require changing the system, which again is objectively easier and simpler then almost any country it gets compared to. (I have never voted mail-in, I have voted early or out of precint (absentee/question ballot) many times with no issues whatsoever.) You're glossing over a ton of things while getting really huffy, why? There are literally 50 different voter registration schemes, so automatically the notion that voting in the US is "objectively easier and simpler" needs dramatic qualification At the same time, the wide disparities across different states require a heavy discounting of "well in my state its easy and I've never had a problem, so how can anyone of the 300+ million people in the US claim voting is tough here?" Aren't you out of Alaska, for crying out loud? Its about equally valid from an argumentation stand point and significantly less ludicrous then the everpresent claims of "i saw a long line on tv, the system is clearly fucked up and disenfanchising voters so we got a moron for a president. The system in <insert european country> is so much better!" and I have fairly clearly been significantly less huffy then the 4 people who have responded to me, who outside of one offered the convincing argument of 'the US system is bad because its the US and we know it's bad". Wonderful. My current voting precinct (at my home in alaska) is 20 miles away and somewhat inconvenient because the local legislative district is bigger then some states. It was significantly easier to vote in Iowa for me in fact when I lived there. Sure enough though I only have experience voting in two states. Why is my voting experience irrelevant but every european in the thread can post theirs as a (somehow???) damning indictment of the US. Very nice. I still have not seen any argument one iota more rigorous for why the SYSTEM is so bad.
The system itself is not so bad, but it is abused (mainly) by one of the two parties that makes it difficult on purpose for a category of population to make its voice heard. And since US elections are decided on less than 1% margins due to states and winner-takes-all, it IS important and affects who ends up in power, even if it affects only 2/3% of the overall population. THAT is on the system. It allows for easy abuse.
You complain you haven't seen one argument ? Have you even read the study I provided on the previous page about large precinct issues ?
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The thing I don't understand is that how voting works in states like Alaska is incredibly useful to the project of criticizing ballot access in states like Florida and Mississippi. Many Western/expansion US states were forced to come up with novel voting systems to provide for their widely dispersed rural populations, which adds insult to the injury of how dumb and circuitous voting systems in more dense, metropolitan states can be. If we can provide access to the ballot for average people living on the outskirts of places like Anchorage, we sure as hell can open more than one polling location for dozens of square miles of extremely dense city scape in places like Atlanta and Miami.
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Farva, I just included documentation about the most populous county in FL where electoral incompetence is the cause of poor logistics, not some systemic effort to disenfranchise poor black people. Snipes herself was black and a Democrat.
Can we please move past the entirely mythological concoction of conspiracy to deny Americans voting by one party or the other? The GOP does it with their stupid voter fraud is rampant mantra. Don't stoop to their level of aggrandizement.
Well, libertarians have been saying this for decades and decades. Maybe instead of harping on the aforementioned fiction maybe we can focus attention to the actual widespread disenfranchisement? Sounds good to me.
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If you think there isn't a concerted effort on the part of small government politicos to undermine public institutions by using downstream state-city pressure, I have a Howard Roark designed bridge to sell you. I recognize you may be inclined to intentionally ignore those efforts given that you are a small government person yourself, but the fact remains that cities cannot conduct elections on their own in any state in the US, they must work through the state political/administrative apparatus, and that's where there are clear party lines at play. It is not a coincidence that many of the blue cities that very obviously have significant difficulties administering basic services sit in states with extremely red legislatures. To be clear, incompetent local Dems are not innocent by any means.
And again, there needn't be a conspiracy for these problems to take on a partisan hue depending on he context, the 50 state setup here lends itself precisely to disjunctive, non conspiratorial policies that work in one place and not in others. That's a key component of the US system.
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On July 19 2020 19:59 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:46 Gorsameth wrote:On July 19 2020 19:40 Atreides wrote:
So do 95%+ (?) of people in the country so it seems like maybe addressing specific concerns of the <5% the current system doesn't work for within the system might be a solution?
It is utterly ridiculous. Again I am very confident that the voting systems "works' for a higher percentage of people in this country then say the ACA, or the aforementioned tax code, or any number of other things.
The fact that we have atrocious turnout and manage to elect someone like our current president is a function of a lot of things but laying blame at the 'voting system' is both laughable and ineffective. your right, the problem is not the system itself but the people exploiting that system to benefit themselves/their party and suppressing the opposition. But we're unlikely to change these people and get them to behave. Instead its more realistic to try to change the system to make it less easy to exploit, that is why so much of the discussion focuses on the system. Because while it is also unlikely to bring about change, its more realistic then expecting people to change. There is nothing wrong with the US voting system (besides of course making it almost impossible for parties outside of the duopoly to debate or get on the ballot), and you making it to be because of the GOP is hilarious. If people actually, really cared about black disenfranchisement they would forcefully attend to the most obvious - reinstating felon voting rights. Of course, the mythical systemic disenfranchisement is ever only trotted out with no facts. It's funny to me that people think its easier to change the voting system or nationalizing it than letting felons vote. Honestly. By the way I just want to address this idea that you can only vote on the weekday. Many locations in the US have early voting often done on the weekend (this is common in FL). Like, this idea that they try and make it as difficult as possible for people to vote in the US is hilarious wrong on so many accounts, but of course like Atreides brought up people see a short 15 second video on CNN or whatever and extrapolate that to the entire country. https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/early-voting-in-state-elections.aspx39! States offer early voting. Come on. Voting in the US is easy and it takes minimal dedication and effort. Did you quote the wrong post? I'm not talking about any particular party because both do it to some extend. And I would consider reinstating felon voting to be part of changing the system.
If I remember correctly some state recently(ish) voted to allow felons to vote in the next election and that was generally met with approval here.
I imagine a lot of the complains from outside the US also come from the imagines of massive lines until deep into the night of people trying to vote. Such lines are, as far as I am aware, nearly unheard of in the EU.
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On July 19 2020 20:19 farvacola wrote:
If you think there isn't a concerted effort on the part of small government politicos to undermine public institutions by using downstream state-city pressure, I have a Howard Roark designed bridge to sell you. I recognize you may be inclined to intentionally ignore those efforts given that you are a small government person yourself, but the fact remains that cities cannot conduct elections on their own in any state in the US, they must work through the state political/administrative apparatus, and that's where there are clear party lines at play. It is not a coincidence that many of the blue cities that very obviously have significant difficulties administering basic services sit in states with extremely red legislatures. To be clear, incompetent local Dems are not innocent by any means.
And again, there needn't be a conspiracy for these problems to take on a partisan hue depending on he context, the 50 state setup here lends itself precisely to disjunctive, non conspiratorial policies that work in one place and not in others. That's a key component of the US system.
That's not entirely true - county supervisor of elections have significant powers and in many states have a lot of logistical control on things such as days of the vote, hours, adding additional early voting days, etc. Just as an example:
https://www.votebrevard.gov/Voter-Education/What-Does-the-Supervisor-of-Elections-Do
Most voting and election-related stuff is conducted at the county level, not the state level. Obviously the counties have to follow state law on the matter, but that is mostly routine stuff. If you will, please point me to state law intentionally disenfranchising poor black people.
Pay special note to:
Maintain election equipment
Hire and train poll workers
Acquire and equip polling places
Then the always incompetent Fulton county (on all levels and all parties): https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt--politics/new-machines-same-pain-for-fulton-county-voters/qAalOXpyIypVztR8RBEOwI/
Hanlon's Razor is at issue here, not a concerted effort to deny Americans their ability to vote.
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On July 19 2020 20:37 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 19:59 Wegandi wrote:On July 19 2020 19:46 Gorsameth wrote:On July 19 2020 19:40 Atreides wrote:
So do 95%+ (?) of people in the country so it seems like maybe addressing specific concerns of the <5% the current system doesn't work for within the system might be a solution?
It is utterly ridiculous. Again I am very confident that the voting systems "works' for a higher percentage of people in this country then say the ACA, or the aforementioned tax code, or any number of other things.
The fact that we have atrocious turnout and manage to elect someone like our current president is a function of a lot of things but laying blame at the 'voting system' is both laughable and ineffective. your right, the problem is not the system itself but the people exploiting that system to benefit themselves/their party and suppressing the opposition. But we're unlikely to change these people and get them to behave. Instead its more realistic to try to change the system to make it less easy to exploit, that is why so much of the discussion focuses on the system. Because while it is also unlikely to bring about change, its more realistic then expecting people to change. There is nothing wrong with the US voting system (besides of course making it almost impossible for parties outside of the duopoly to debate or get on the ballot), and you making it to be because of the GOP is hilarious. If people actually, really cared about black disenfranchisement they would forcefully attend to the most obvious - reinstating felon voting rights. Of course, the mythical systemic disenfranchisement is ever only trotted out with no facts. It's funny to me that people think its easier to change the voting system or nationalizing it than letting felons vote. Honestly. By the way I just want to address this idea that you can only vote on the weekday. Many locations in the US have early voting often done on the weekend (this is common in FL). Like, this idea that they try and make it as difficult as possible for people to vote in the US is hilarious wrong on so many accounts, but of course like Atreides brought up people see a short 15 second video on CNN or whatever and extrapolate that to the entire country. https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/early-voting-in-state-elections.aspx39! States offer early voting. Come on. Voting in the US is easy and it takes minimal dedication and effort. Did you quote the wrong post? I'm not talking about any particular party because both do it to some extend. And I would consider reinstating felon voting to be part of changing the system. If I remember correctly some state recently(ish) voted to allow felons to vote in the next election and that was generally met with approval here. I imagine a lot of the complains from outside the US also come from the imagines of massive lines until deep into the night of people trying to vote. Such lines are, as far as I am aware, nearly unheard of in the EU.
Yes, the racist state of FL did it (and shit on DeSantis for making it more difficult).
https://www.npr.org/2020/05/24/861776313/federal-judge-rules-florida-law-restricting-voting-rights-for-felons-unconstitut
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Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US.
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On July 19 2020 20:46 farvacola wrote:
Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US.
The States don't run elections - they delegate that authority to the Counties and cities and their associated clerks/supervisors that are often elected positions. Sure, it doesn't point out resource allocation, but its very rare for requests to be denied. Like I said, incompetence is the primary motivating factor for things like long lines, poor training / equipment, polling locations, volunteer staffing, etc. It's not a herculean task to vote in the US. They try to make it as easy as possible for people. The GOP didn't steal the election from Stacy Abrahams or Gillum, or whatever, just like 3 million dead people did not vote for Hillary Clinton.
Now, can we just agree that the integrity of US elections isn't under threat? Let's restore felons their voting rights.
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On July 19 2020 20:19 farvacola wrote:
If you think there isn't a concerted effort on the part of small government politicos to undermine public institutions by using downstream state-city pressure, I have a Howard Roark designed bridge to sell you. I recognize you may be inclined to intentionally ignore those efforts given that you are a small government person yourself, but the fact remains that cities cannot conduct elections on their own in any state in the US, they must work through the state political/administrative apparatus, and that's where there are clear party lines at play. It is not a coincidence that many of the blue cities that very obviously have significant difficulties administering basic services sit in states with extremely red legislatures. To be clear, incompetent local Dems are not innocent by any means.
And again, there needn't be a conspiracy for these problems to take on a partisan hue depending on he context, the 50 state setup here lends itself precisely to disjunctive, non conspiratorial policies that work in one place and not in others. That's a key component of the US system.
I dont buy this for a few reasons voting in deep blue states and deep blue districts are still terrible.
Also when people from the rest of the world complain about us voting they're always complaining about it as if it were one system instead of the 50 systems it is. Plenty of states in the union do very well with what they have to work with and yet the same counties in florida are a rats nest that baffles me how they get any legitimacy at all.
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On July 19 2020 20:54 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 20:46 farvacola wrote:
Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US. The States don't run elections - they delegate that authority to the Counties and cities and their associated clerks/supervisors that are often elected positions. Sure, it doesn't point out resource allocation, but its very rare for requests to be denied. Like I said, incompetence is the primary motivating factor for things like long lines, poor training / equipment, polling locations, volunteer staffing, etc. It's not a herculean task to vote in the US. They try to make it as easy as possible for people. The GOP didn't steal the election from Stacy Abrahams or Gillum, or whatever, just like 3 million dead people did not vote for Hillary Clinton. Now, can we just agree that the integrity of US elections isn't under threat? Let's restore felons their voting rights.
I could quibble with the rest endlessly, but yes, I agree with that and think that should be a focus.
And sure serm, I mentioned across the aisle because there are certainly Dems who are part of the problem.
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On July 19 2020 20:41 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 20:37 Gorsameth wrote:On July 19 2020 19:59 Wegandi wrote:On July 19 2020 19:46 Gorsameth wrote:On July 19 2020 19:40 Atreides wrote:
So do 95%+ (?) of people in the country so it seems like maybe addressing specific concerns of the <5% the current system doesn't work for within the system might be a solution?
It is utterly ridiculous. Again I am very confident that the voting systems "works' for a higher percentage of people in this country then say the ACA, or the aforementioned tax code, or any number of other things.
The fact that we have atrocious turnout and manage to elect someone like our current president is a function of a lot of things but laying blame at the 'voting system' is both laughable and ineffective. your right, the problem is not the system itself but the people exploiting that system to benefit themselves/their party and suppressing the opposition. But we're unlikely to change these people and get them to behave. Instead its more realistic to try to change the system to make it less easy to exploit, that is why so much of the discussion focuses on the system. Because while it is also unlikely to bring about change, its more realistic then expecting people to change. There is nothing wrong with the US voting system (besides of course making it almost impossible for parties outside of the duopoly to debate or get on the ballot), and you making it to be because of the GOP is hilarious. If people actually, really cared about black disenfranchisement they would forcefully attend to the most obvious - reinstating felon voting rights. Of course, the mythical systemic disenfranchisement is ever only trotted out with no facts. It's funny to me that people think its easier to change the voting system or nationalizing it than letting felons vote. Honestly. By the way I just want to address this idea that you can only vote on the weekday. Many locations in the US have early voting often done on the weekend (this is common in FL). Like, this idea that they try and make it as difficult as possible for people to vote in the US is hilarious wrong on so many accounts, but of course like Atreides brought up people see a short 15 second video on CNN or whatever and extrapolate that to the entire country. https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/early-voting-in-state-elections.aspx39! States offer early voting. Come on. Voting in the US is easy and it takes minimal dedication and effort. Did you quote the wrong post? I'm not talking about any particular party because both do it to some extend. And I would consider reinstating felon voting to be part of changing the system. If I remember correctly some state recently(ish) voted to allow felons to vote in the next election and that was generally met with approval here. I imagine a lot of the complains from outside the US also come from the imagines of massive lines until deep into the night of people trying to vote. Such lines are, as far as I am aware, nearly unheard of in the EU. Yes, the racist state of FL did it (and shit on DeSantis for making it more difficult). https://www.npr.org/2020/05/24/861776313/federal-judge-rules-florida-law-restricting-voting-rights-for-felons-unconstitut
Iirc, the supreme court reversed this stay and the law is now in place again this year. They won't be hearing the case until next year.
The main reason mail in voting is such a hot issue is the pandemic.
Voter registration is also WAY down.
Most of the fuckery recently has involved taking people off the voting rolls. There are a lot of fairly credible accusations of GA electioneering (they wiped their servers with voting records after a judge told them not to in the GA 6 special election with Ossoff and there were allegations about Kemp, who counted his own votes), but most places haven't been blatant.
It is more things like only having one voting booth in the black community and 50 in the white one.
This is a state to state problem, and mostly only an issue in the south.
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On July 19 2020 20:54 Wegandi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 20:46 farvacola wrote:
Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US. + Show Spoiler +The States don't run elections - they delegate that authority to the Counties and cities and their associated clerks/supervisors that are often elected positions. Sure, it doesn't point out resource allocation, but its very rare for requests to be denied. Like I said, incompetence is the primary motivating factor for things like long lines, poor training / equipment, polling locations, volunteer staffing, etc. It's not a herculean task to vote in the US. They try to make it as easy as possible for people. The GOP didn't steal the election from Stacy Abrahams or Gillum, or whatever, just like 3 million dead people did not vote for Hillary Clinton.
Now, can we just agree that the integrity of US elections isn't under threat? Let's restore felons their voting rights.
You mean after prison or that people shouldn't be disenfranchised in the first place?
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On July 20 2020 00:22 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On July 19 2020 20:54 Wegandi wrote:On July 19 2020 20:46 farvacola wrote:
Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US. + Show Spoiler +The States don't run elections - they delegate that authority to the Counties and cities and their associated clerks/supervisors that are often elected positions. Sure, it doesn't point out resource allocation, but its very rare for requests to be denied. Like I said, incompetence is the primary motivating factor for things like long lines, poor training / equipment, polling locations, volunteer staffing, etc. It's not a herculean task to vote in the US. They try to make it as easy as possible for people. The GOP didn't steal the election from Stacy Abrahams or Gillum, or whatever, just like 3 million dead people did not vote for Hillary Clinton.
Now, can we just agree that the integrity of US elections isn't under threat? Let's restore felons their voting rights. You mean after prison or that people shouldn't be disenfranchised in the first place?
Wait, people can't vote after they're released from prison on felony charges? Even that they can't vote while they're in the system in the first place is pretty absurd. To continue it after just seems petty, if not downright malicious.
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On July 20 2020 07:28 goiflin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 00:22 GreenHorizons wrote:On July 19 2020 20:54 Wegandi wrote:On July 19 2020 20:46 farvacola wrote:
Again, you're tilting at the windmill where someone has alleged some grand conspiracy, and as I've already said, the US is designed for the precise opposite, for balkanized states with non-uniform rules that allow for wildly disparate outcomes and policies.
And that Brevard county website's listing of the county clerk's duties without any citations is neither here nor there, particularly in the sense that it does not address resource allocation and the drafting of the state rules that empower county clerks in the first place. Counties and munis are creatures of state law in all 50 states, with some special exceptions for the bigguns where the state constitution specially enumerates a locality's powers. The notion that counties have free-standing power of any kind is legally untrue everywhere in he US. + Show Spoiler +The States don't run elections - they delegate that authority to the Counties and cities and their associated clerks/supervisors that are often elected positions. Sure, it doesn't point out resource allocation, but its very rare for requests to be denied. Like I said, incompetence is the primary motivating factor for things like long lines, poor training / equipment, polling locations, volunteer staffing, etc. It's not a herculean task to vote in the US. They try to make it as easy as possible for people. The GOP didn't steal the election from Stacy Abrahams or Gillum, or whatever, just like 3 million dead people did not vote for Hillary Clinton.
Now, can we just agree that the integrity of US elections isn't under threat? Let's restore felons their voting rights. You mean after prison or that people shouldn't be disenfranchised in the first place? Wait, people can't vote after they're released from prison on felony charges? Even that they can't vote while they're in the system in the first place is pretty absurd. To continue it after just seems petty, if not downright malicious.
Millions of people are disenfranchised after being convicted of a "felony" (and completing their sentence/parole) which is not a nationally standardized identifier. In Florida stealing over $300 worth of product (retail price) is a felony, so a couple pairs of Nikes cost people their right to vote for life.
As of 2016, 6.1 million Americans were prohibited from voting due to laws that disenfranchise citizens convicted of felony offenses.1) Felony disenfranchisement rates vary by state, as states institute a wide range of disenfranchisement policies.
The 11 most extreme states restrict voting rights for some or all individuals even after they have served their prison sentence and are no longer on probation or parole; such individuals in those states make up over 50 percent of the entire disenfranchised population.2) Only two states, Maine and Vermont, do not restrict the voting rights of anyone with a felony conviction, including those in prison.
Persons currently in prison or jail represent a minority of the total disenfranchised population. In fact, 77 percent of disenfranchised voters live in their communities, either under probation or parole supervision or having completed their sentence.4) An estimated 3.1 million people are disenfranchised due to state laws that restrict voting rights even after completion of sentences.
www.sentencingproject.org
Not a coincidence that felons can vote while still in prison in the two whitest states in the country either imo.
Felony disenfranchisement policies have a disproportionate impact on communities of color. Black Americans of voting age are more than four times as likely to lose their voting rights than the rest of the adult population, with one of every 13 black adults disenfranchised nationally. As of 2016, in four states – Florida (21 percent), Kentucky (26 percent), Tennessee (21 percent), and Virginia (22 percent) – more than one in five black adults was disenfranchised.
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So, American voting is super easy and there is no problem with it. Next thing is that someone points out, that it is stupid to put elections on weekdays, as it affects the working class the most. And the argument against that is, that 39 states have early voting. So let me get this straight, American elections are super easy, just not for 22% of the states. So, voting in the states is super easy. Mostly. Except, for when it's not. But then it is not an active effort of a political party, just incompetence. Except, when it is not, and your Supreme Court is denying state laws that are unconstitutional and usually racist. But even then, both parties do it, except when they don't and it's usually the gop.
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On July 20 2020 19:45 Broetchenholer wrote:
So, American voting is super easy and there is no problem with it. Next thing is that someone points out, that it is stupid to put elections on weekdays, as it affects the working class the most. And the argument against that is, that 39 states have early voting. So let me get this straight, American elections are super easy, just not for 22% of the states. So, voting in the states is super easy. Mostly. Except, for when it's not. But then it is not an active effort of a political party, just incompetence. Except, when it is not, and your Supreme Court is denying state laws that are unconstitutional and usually racist. But even then, both parties do it, except when they don't and it's usually the gop.
That about sums it up.
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EPT
